Talk:Accepted features/Smoothness: Difference between revisions

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I like the idea behind this proposal: "This is my whole point: as a user of a certain road or path I am only interested wether I can drive on this road or not." What I do not like are the names. If what you are after with with this tag is whether you can use a road with a particular type of vehicle and not how smooth the surface is (this is just a means to indicate whether you can use the road) than I think the name should be rather ''accessibility'' or ''usability''. This is also why I proposed to extend the access tag to cover the semantics but it seems people prefer to reserve this tag for legal access restrictions.
I like the idea behind this proposal: "This is my whole point: as a user of a certain road or path I am only interested wether I can drive on this road or not." What I do not like are the names. If what you are after with with this tag is whether you can use a road with a particular type of vehicle and not how smooth the surface is (this is just a means to indicate whether you can use the road) than I think the name should be rather ''accessibility'' or ''usability''. This is also why I proposed to extend the access tag to cover the semantics but it seems people prefer to reserve this tag for legal access restrictions.
Something like accessibility=(car|hc|4wd|tractor) would work perfectly for motorized vehicles and is actually the way how it is done in most maps that I know. It has also the benefit of largely resolving the sand problem as well as the discussion about subjective scales (what precisely is the difference between bad and intermediate etc.). Above all the meaning will be clear for the users of the map (the meaning of accessability=HC is much more obvious than smoothness=intermediate). The only problem I see is that things like roller blades only interested in excellently smooth pavement will not be covered anymore.
Something like accessibility=(car|hc|4wd|tractor) would work perfectly for motorized vehicles and is actually the way how it is done in most maps that I know. It has also the benefit of largely resolving the sand problem as well as the discussion about subjective scales (what precisely is the difference between bad and intermediate etc.). Above all the meaning will be clear for the users of the map (the meaning of accessability=HC is much more obvious than smoothness=intermediate). The only problem I see is that things like roller blades only interested in excellently smooth pavement will not be covered anymore. But such "vehicles" are really rather interested in the surface property and should be covered by the surface tag. [[User:Ukuester|Ukuester]] 15:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:58, 4 July 2008

Ok, I agree with the smoothness tag as proposed in you'r tab, because I need something like that for mountain track roads ( saying which vehicule you need at least to drive on it ) Sletuffe 16:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Even being new at OSM: from my view as a biker and inline-skater smoothness is a very practical solution in conjuntion with surface Pmurk65 27 May 2008

smoothness and surface

I dislike the dependencies between the proposed smoothness and the surface key. If I read your list correctly, a way with surface=cobblestone and smoothness=bad is illegal? I'd certainly like to distinguish between various grades of cobblestoned road. In my opinion, smoothness without surface is pointless, hence I'd rather a smoothness key refined surface, so you get excellent or good or intermediate paved roads, good to catastrophic cobblestoned roads, etc. So how about a key smoothness=0 (default), +1, -1 to refine a base smoothness for the type of surface? Robx 07:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

This dependency was not my intention. The surface descriptions in the second column are EXAMPLES, not used for definition. The smoothness of a way should be assessed solely based on the usability of that way by the vehicles I mention, NOT based on the surface. This is my whole point: as a user of a certain road or path I am only interested wether I can drive on this road or not. If I sit on a racing bike, I am not interested wether the surface of a way is cobblestone or mud, just wether it is smooth enough to be used with a racing bike or not. I changed the proposal to make that clear (hopefully). With your proposal of a refined surface key, it gets very difficult to draw usage-specific maps (e.g. for racing bikes), since there is a potentially infinite number of surface values. Imagine a piste on a salt lake -- with the surface key it would read "surface=salt", which would have no meaning before the key is integrated into all the renderers and Garmin type files and whatever. With "smoothness=excellent", it would instantly show up everywhere as usable with a racing bike, which is my intention. --Chrischan 11:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm beginning to like the proposal. It doesn't store all relevant information, but it's a good start, and appears to be clearly defined. I've started tagging some roads around here, the better cobblestoned roads with smoothness=intermediate and the awful ones with smoothness=bad. Also some really smooth paved roads with smoothness=excellent. I'd suggest adding some default values: A road should have a default of smoothness=good given its surface is paved or unspecified. A road with surface=cobblestone should default to smoothness=intermediate. A track should probably default to intermediate also. Robx 20:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps an additional value of "unknown" would be best as a default? I've even been on an interstate highway (motorway) which is definitely smoothness=bad, or maybe smoothness=intermediate if you're feeling generous. Just anecdotal, but I think it's a bad idea to imply the smoothness based on the highway (or even surface) classification. --Hawke 21:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure those exist, but they're certainly the exception. A default of unkown (or rather, no default), includes in the smoothness tag also the information whether the way has been surveyed for smoothness, which may be a good idea. But I'd rather not add thousands of smoothness=good tags and rather state somewhere that I've surveyed a given area for smoothness. Robx 18:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Subjective

I've never like subjective tags such as this. This is why tracktype=* never got anywhere, as it is not obvious what the difference between "bad" and "intermediate" is. For instance, the roads where I live are terrible, but saying as they're all like that, should it be smoothness=bad or smoothness=intermediate? Bruce89 14:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I like it, as long as there are usable guidelines for how to tag. "suitable for roller skates" and "suitable for mountain bikes and 4-wheel-drive automobiles" is quite good, IMO. --Hawke 15:16, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, tracktype=* never got anywhere because it does not describe a singular property of a way, but a combination of properties. Smoothness, although as far as I know not being a standardized physical property, could even be measured physically (I think of a wheel of defined size, measuring the vertical deflection while being dragged along the way). Obviously, this would be very unpractical. But when you honestly try to classify the roads you know into that scheme (based on wether you would drive on it with the vehicles I mention), you will see that the classification is pretty unambiguous in *most* cases. But I think this is very similar to the width of a road: although it is a physical property, few people would actually bring a rule and measure the width, most people would guess. Still it is very good to know wether the width is 2m or 20m, or wether the smoothness is excellent or horrible. --Chrischan 11:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Catastrophic?

I have to say that I'm not so sure about "catastrophic" for the lowest value, it doesn't seem to fit with the others. I suggest "horrible" as an alternative. I'd support the proposal though. --Hawke 15:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I know what it means, I just don't think it's a very good word to use for a value here. --Hawke 17:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Hawke, why do you think "catastrophic" does not fit with the others? I actually do not care about the values at all, I just want the schema ;-). But maybe I should add Alvs idea to have one more tag essentially saying "no wheeled access possible" beyond the 4wd access value. --Chrischan 11:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
It just doesn't fit with the rest, in my mind. "How was that sandwich you ate today?" "Oh, it was catastrophic!" doesn't work. Or -- "Hey, I want to go for a ride on Foo Lane; how's the surface quality?" "Oh, I wouldn't ride there, it's catastrophic!". "Catastrophic" to me would give a degree of badness to something that was already bad ("I had a catastrophic accident on my bicycle today").
I do like Alv's idea of a sixth grade beyond the 4wd level. Perhaps "impassable" would work, especially if this is intended to apply to wheeled vehicles only. Bipeds are quite good at navigating obstacles, and if it's impassable by them, we probably shouldn't be mapping it as any sort of routeable type.--Hawke 16:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
How about "very bad", then catastrophic as the lowest value. Otherwise it's too big a jump from grass to mountain tracks. --OliverLondon 16:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I started mapping tracks as I was hiking this week end with the smoothness tag in addition of the highway=track tag, and it turns out that I mapped a lot of tracks with the lowest possible quality ( smoothness=catastrophic ). But I doubt any 4wd could pass the tracks I went to so I missused that tag because It lacks "above" (or below ;-) ) catastophic. So I wonder why those tracks were there If no 4 wheels vehicules can use them ? The answer to my question came 10 minutes later as we crossed their way : 2 differents 4 wheels vehicules, a tractor and a "Quad" ( in french ). So, I am in favour or adding a "horrible" or whatever we should call it level to increase to 6 the number of smoothness tags in the goal of mapping what can drive on after a 4wd. To my mind, Mountain Bike can drive where 4wd ( not the army ones) cannot, the "horrible" tag should fit for 4wd and the "catastrophic" tag for Mountain bike & Tractors & "quads" Sletuffe 13:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

impassable ?

ok this looks better because it's less subjective than catastophic, but I don't think it's ok either. Why ? Answer this : how could a track be impassable by 4 wheeled vehicules ? It cannot, by the fact that it was created as a track in the goal to make passing possible what's worse than horrible ? I'm not a native english speaker ? or could we insert a "very_bad" between bad and "horrible" ? Sletuffe 15:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think impassable wouldn't be applicable to tracks. On a footway, it would say that it wouldn't be passable by mountainbike. It's not a value that would be used much, mostly there for completeness. Robx

Laterally varying smoothness

In fact, it doesn't need to be specified. The proposal is quite usable the way it is right now. I'd suggest voting on this as is, and then considering refinements such as smoothness=bad plus smoothness:left_border=good plus left_border:surface=painted_paving_stones. If you encounter a way that doesn't quite fit, add a note or invent some appropriate tag. Robx 18:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Vote? (and what about sand)

Since discussion seems to have died down without major objections, how about taking this to vote?

I did come across a minor problem: In the local forests, there's some deep sandy tracks (partly bridleways). Since they're barely passable by wheeled vehicles, I'd tag them smoothness=bad, but arguably they're really quite "smooth". Robx 07:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Same as you, I'm using it for a while now, and would be sad to see it dropped ;-)
For your remark about "smooth sand" but passable ( only by 4wd ? then I would have tag it smoothness=horrible ), I forsee some confusion just because of the name "smoothness". If I understand this proposal correctly, and as I was saying here before Chrischan transformed it into a nice proposal, the real goal of it, as mentionned here in the proposal : The smoothness of a way should be assessed solely based on the usability of that way by the vehicles mentioned above, NOT based on the surface properties
In clear, even if it is a perfectly smooth surface such as a wall, because it isn't passable then it shouldn't be tagged with smoothness
Ok my example is bad because we don't tag walls, but I'm sure every one get the point Sletuffe

Accessibility / Usability?

I like the idea behind this proposal: "This is my whole point: as a user of a certain road or path I am only interested wether I can drive on this road or not." What I do not like are the names. If what you are after with with this tag is whether you can use a road with a particular type of vehicle and not how smooth the surface is (this is just a means to indicate whether you can use the road) than I think the name should be rather accessibility or usability. This is also why I proposed to extend the access tag to cover the semantics but it seems people prefer to reserve this tag for legal access restrictions. Something like accessibility=(car|hc|4wd|tractor) would work perfectly for motorized vehicles and is actually the way how it is done in most maps that I know. It has also the benefit of largely resolving the sand problem as well as the discussion about subjective scales (what precisely is the difference between bad and intermediate etc.). Above all the meaning will be clear for the users of the map (the meaning of accessability=HC is much more obvious than smoothness=intermediate). The only problem I see is that things like roller blades only interested in excellently smooth pavement will not be covered anymore. But such "vehicles" are really rather interested in the surface property and should be covered by the surface tag. Ukuester 15:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)