Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/14 September 2015
- hot: HOT Training Group
Meeting started by TomT5454 at 18:03:38 UTC. The full logs are available at http://dogodigi.net/logs/hot/2015/hot.2015-09-14-18.03.log.html .
- Previous meeting minutes (TomT5454, 18:09:04)
* LINK: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/31_August_2015 (Tallguy-Nick, 18:09:50)
- LearnOSM updates (TomT5454, 18:13:33)
* LINK: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rmEq4Cocw8C8z5PoiQ0MlkqoUQn8kvSwCOmrnRcrg0E/edit?pli=1 (TomT5454, 18:32:15) * LINK: http://courses.hotosm.org/ (Tallguy-Nick, 18:49:33) * LINK: http://mapgive.state.gov/ (BlakeGirardot, 18:56:46) * LINK: http://mapgive.state.gov/ (TomT5454, 18:57:09) * ACTION: (Just to give a time point) (TomT5454, 19:25:08) * LINK: https://github.com/Nick-Tallguy/Nick-Tallguy.github.io/wiki/Languages-DRAFT (Tallguy-Nick, 19:33:16)
- Other Business (TomT5454, 19:33:32)
* LINK: https://www.transifex.com/hotosm/learnosm-1/dashboard/ (Tallguy-Nick, 19:49:30)
Meeting ended at 19:58:49 UTC.
People present (lines said)
- TomT5454 (84)
- SuzanReed (74)
- SteveBower (46)
- Tallguy-Nick (34)
- RAytoun (27)
- BlakeGirardot (20)
- BlarneyJim (13)
- hot_meetbot` (3)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
18:03:38 <TomT5454> #startmeeting HOT Training Group
18:03:38 <hot_meetbot`> Meeting started Mon Sep 14 18:03:38 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is TomT5454. Information about MeetBot at .
18:03:38 <hot_meetbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
18:03:38 <hot_meetbot`> The meeting name has been set to 'hot_training_group'
18:04:19 <TomT5454> Looks like you had a great working meeting last time.
18:04:50 <TomT5454> Just remembered: Steve
18:05:54 <TomT5454> OK, agenda:
18:06:23 <TomT5454> 1. Set and approve agenda
18:06:37 <TomT5454> 2. Approve previous meeting minutes
18:06:51 <TomT5454> 3. LearnOSM updates
18:07:21 <TomT5454> 4. Other business
18:07:41 <TomT5454> 5. Next Meeting time
18:07:47 <TomT5454> Look OK?
18:08:00 <SteveBower> yes
18:08:06 <Tallguy-Nick> Looks good to me
18:08:06 <SuzanReed> yes
18:08:38 <RAytoun> Looks fine
18:08:41 <TomT5454> OK, agenda agreed 18:09:04 <TomT5454> #topic Previous meeting minutes
18:09:41 <TomT5454> Any comments on previous meeting minutes?
18:09:50 <Tallguy-Nick> #link 
18:10:05 <TomT5454> Tks
18:11:31 <SuzanReed> Jim just joined us. Welcome Jim!
18:12:09 <BlarneyJim> Hello Suzan and all
18:12:27 <TomT5454> Hi, Jim
18:12:35 <Tallguy-Nick> Hi Jim
18:13:00 <TomT5454> OK, minutes approved?
18:13:01 <RAytoun> Hello Jim
18:13:03 <SteveBower> minutes look good - love the automated log
18:13:33 <TomT5454> #topic LearnOSM updates
18:14:01 <TomT5454> OK, go to it, folks. Suzan, I think you had some things to report
18:14:58 <SuzanReed> I would like to outline the first part of the beginners’ Learn OSM, have the group review it, and then write it. I’d like to use a wide number of resources as source material, including the knowledge all of you have. I have a pretty good idea now of how to lay it out, but would like the group to decide if this is a good course of action.
18:15:20 <Tallguy-Nick> Sounds good to me
18:15:57 <SuzanReed> I was going to simply edit what’s there, but it talks down to people and I don’t think it’s the right information.
18:16:05 <SteveBower> I think the distinction between OSM Beginner and HOT Beginner will be important. Maybe both should be outlined, or call out expected differences?
18:16:33 <SuzanReed> Yes, I think the difference should be defined.
18:17:14 <RAytoun> I believe the entire mind set and approach is different
18:17:22 <SuzanReed> I would like to start with what OSM does, what it is, etc. Simple and short. Some background. Part of that would be defining HOT.
18:18:16 <TomT5454> Sounds right.
18:19:12 <TomT5454> Wonder if we can avoid getting into that lengthy controversy on OSM-Talk about existing versus historical
18:19:18 <SuzanReed> I’d like to draw on the group’s knowledge. How can we do that? If we set up a Hackpad outline, then would that be a place to add in comments and information?
18:19:41 <SteveBower> @Tom - elaborate? What controversy?
18:19:59 <SuzanReed> I want to keep the information on what OSM is very short.
18:20:17 <SteveBower> ...now that you've brought it up ;-)
18:20:49 <TomT5454> Hundreds of messages exchanged, starting when a fan of old railways expressed his anguish over deletions of his work by someone else.
18:21:39 <SteveBower> @Tom - I think we can avoid that, doesn't sound necessary for a beginner module
18:21:58 <TomT5454> Key issue is whether traces of old railway lines should be recorded when some parts have been superseded by e.g., housing developments
18:22:28 <TomT5454> Basic issue is treatment of different moments in time.
18:22:45 <TomT5454> @Steve: agreed, should be able to avoid
18:22:53 <SuzanReed> That’s not relevant to the beginners’ intro I don’t think.
18:23:29 <TomT5454> There is the broader principle that you record data but don't map to the presentation
18:23:53 <SteveBower> @Suzan - The current Beginner's Guide has 5 Modules : Intro, OSM, iD, Glossary, Further Reading. Are you thinking in terms of a collection of several Modules?
18:23:55 <TomT5454> -- the renderer
18:23:58 <SuzanReed> There’s a lot I didn’t know, simple things, that would be good for a beginner to know.
18:24:16 <SuzanReed> Yes, several modules, but not those exact modules.
18:24:45 <BlarneyJim> @Suz, yes and a lot beginners don't need to know.
18:24:45 <SuzanReed> That’s what I would outline, and expand on, and get your input on.
18:26:11 <RAytoun> Suzan, if you think to your Mali mapping them you will realise that talk of old railway lines is irrelevant for HOT training
18:26:46 <RAytoun> And more focus on mapping basics
18:26:51 <SuzanReed> Old railway lines has nothing to do with this. :)
18:28:25 <RAytoun> Agreed
18:28:41 <SuzanReed> I’d like to get people started quickly and easily. Make the information concise and informative. Give people basic information they can use to get started. Not too deep. Then give them links to the deeper information.
18:28:50 <SteveBower> @Suzan - Sounds good. I think it would be good to provide some overview of the OSM "dataverse" - how OSM data are developed and used. Maybe not a full module on that, but at least reference a more detailed description.
18:28:57 <TomT5454> In logical order, I suppose it's: 1. How to do a survey -- field tools available (like Walking Papers) 2. How to get the results into the OSM database, which introduces JOSM, ID, PotLatch?? - also introduces tagging
18:29:08 <SteveBower> I created an overview diagram sometime back, that would have been helpful when I was starting out : 
18:29:31 <SteveBower> Just food for thought
18:29:49 <SuzanReed> I have not outlines all of this yet, so I can’t give you specifics on each module. I have a list going, with notes. I would put that in order and have you all look at it.
18:30:20 <SuzanReed> Great Steve! That’s exactly the kind of information I’d like from all of you. I need your input.
18:30:41 <TomT5454> Way up front you could give a brief description of the OSM infrastructure
18:31:06 <SuzanReed> Yes, that would be great in the introduction.
18:32:15 <TomT5454> #link 
18:32:29 <SuzanReed> I see that intro to OSM as two short paragraphs of several sentences each. Nothing more is needed by a beginner.
18:33:38 <TomT5454> @Steve: That is a nice diagram
18:34:39 <SuzanReed> I would like each bit of information to show in one screen. No need to scroll down. Each screen with concise information.
18:35:31 <SteveBower> One laptop-size screen? Tablet-size?
18:36:01 <SuzanReed> A quick start guide, but with enough information a beginner feels grounded.
18:37:08 <SuzanReed> The tech details later. Many software companies use this kind of learning.
18:37:38 <SuzanReed> Jim, do you agree this would be a good approach?
18:37:54 <TomT5454> Reasonable. You need a context before you can absorb information
18:38:15 <SteveBower> Keeping in mind different user classes: some just want to use data, some contribute to mapping. Maybe those are separate modules (data usage vs. contribution).
18:38:32 <BlarneyJim> @Steve, when you say, "1. How to do a survey -- field tools available (like WalkingPapers)", I don't know if that is needed in order to map. I didn't need it to start tagging Nepal victims huts.
18:38:48 <SuzanReed> All I need is your approval
to go forth and outline the information. Then we can discuss if I’ve covered everything.
18:38:59 <Tallguy-Nick> I approve
18:39:10 <TomT5454> But that's more specifically HOT-oriented: remote mapping
18:39:36 <SteveBower> Having single-screen content would be quite different from the rest of LearnOSM - which is OK, but some might raise that as an issue
18:39:43 <TomT5454> That last was @Jim. I approve
18:39:48 <SuzanReed> I didn’t need to know about walking papers to map. Or missing maps. This will be for beginners, remember, with more advanced modules to follow.
18:40:10 <Tallguy-Nick> Do we have someone with the skills to remove the menu when you don't need to see it - takes up half the screen sometimes?
18:40:26 <TomT5454> OK, we have a distinction between remote and local mapping
18:41:11 <BlarneyJim> If I understand it, the goal is to get beginners enough info to get in and try it. After that, the instinct will be to learn more (hopefully).
18:41:16 <SteveBower> @Blarney - I think we're talking about general OSM Beginners, not HOT Beginners. You missed that part of the discussion earlier.
18:41:37 <SuzanReed> I’d like to tighten up the site layout. Who does that work?
18:41:40 <BlarneyJim> Oops, thanks for that.
18:42:01 <BlarneyJim> to @Steve
18:42:11 <SuzanReed> Exactly, Jim!
18:42:11 <SteveBower> @Jim - Also, I don't recall saying "1. How to do a survey ...", or where you saw that
18:42:49 <TomT5454> I said it. I'll repeat.
18:43:26 <TomT5454> In logical order, I suppose it's: 1. How to do a survey -- field tools available (like WalkingPapers) 2. How to get the results into the OSM database, which introduces JOSM, ID, PotLatch?? - also introduces tagging
18:44:01 <SteveBower> I think the emphasis should be for those who want to contribute mapping, but some OSM beginners only want to use the data. The Beginner's Guide should be for them too.
18:44:15 <SuzanReed> Tom, I think those topics are a little more advanced.
18:44:50 <TomT5454> OK 3. How to use the OSM data. Probably a few sub-topics
18:44:56 <SuzanReed> So the information on how to do a survey would go after basic mapping information, correct?
18:45:10 <TomT5454> Yes
18:46:48 <TomT5454> One of the points about "How to do" is the need to exercise judgement in choosing what data to rely on, since GPS can be unreliable. Learned that lesson early on.
18:46:57 <SuzanReed> I see each module listed, with the information covered. It should be easy to find the specific information you are lookng for.
18:47:12 <RAytoun> Last time I looked this group is a HOT Working Group and I keep seeing our concern for OSM beginners getting in the way of producing material and guides to be able to get mappers mapping during a Crisis Activation, Walking Field Papers and surveys are matters for Missing Maps Projects.
18:47:36 <SuzanReed> Example: If you only want to know how to use the data, you would be able to find the module for that, read it, know where to find additional information and GO.
18:48:06 <SteveBower> @Tom - Good point. One of the current modules states that GPS traces are the best source. But recreational-grade GPS can be off by 100s of feet.
18:48:22 <SuzanReed> Ralph, I believe people may need to know about Missing Maps, and we would write a module for that, too.
18:48:56 <TomT5454> @Ralph: the thing is, we were given the mandate to develop LearnOSM. We can look for an additional mandate to develop HOT-oriented work, but we don't want to over-extend pourselves
18:49:11 <SteveBower> @Ralph - My understanding is that HOT has taken on the overall OSM training material, not limited to HOT. The OSM Foundation has no training group.
18:49:29 <Tallguy-Nick> Should the HOT specific content be at the Hot Training Centre
18:49:33 <Tallguy-Nick> #link 
18:49:44 <SuzanReed> And I have no idea what a GPS trace is. Do I need to know that as a beginning mapper? Or is that a bit more advanced, something to put in a later module.
18:50:10 <SuzanReed> Remember, I’m only outlining what goes into the Beginners’ Quick Start Guide.
18:50:43 <SuzanReed> Some of these topics would go into additional modules, correct?
18:50:56 <SteveBower> @Ralph - But I think OSM Beginner material will be of use to HOT beginners too - even if they don't need it for basic mapping tasks
18:51:03 <TomT5454> GPS traces are basic information. You tell your GPS to record your track, then walk along a street, for example. You stop recording and u[pload the result
18:51:13 <BlakeGirardot> I definitely think RAytoun is on to something really
18:51:37 <RAytoun> If this is all about training OSM then I am in the wrong group
18:51:43 <SteveBower> @Nick - Is the HOT training ctr focused on activation training, rather than end user/mapper training?
18:51:44 <BlakeGirardot> A lot of people want to jump in and get their feet wet with mapping who know nothing about OSM mapping
18:52:06 <Tallguy-Nick> It contains what we put in it - 
18:52:22 <TomT5454> I agree that it seems a bit strange not to be developing HOT-oriented materials as a first priority, but I can show you the mandate in old minutes
18:52:24 <BlakeGirardot> HOT or otherwise, and we want LearnOSM to have a quick start guide like Suzan said, quick start for mapping, helps OSM and HOT both no?
18:52:30 <BlarneyJim> @Blake, totally agree!
18:52:41 <TomT5454> Agreed
18:52:56 <BlakeGirardot> But quick start mapping is both HOT and OSM material, that's that basic, lets get started mapping, it applies equally to both audiences.
18:53:06 <Tallguy-Nick> @Blake, I agree - HOT also has ground surveys. Suzan is outlining a good start that works for all parties & groups
18:53:28 <SuzanReed> Yes @Blake, helps both OSM and HOT. Basic.
18:53:56 <SteveBower> This is why I think it will be important to outline OSM Beginner vs HOT Beginner material. Some of it may serve both groups, but some will be HOT-specific.
18:54:18 <Tallguy-Nick> But - can LearnOSM actually be presented how you would like - very limited at present with formatting etc.
18:54:32 <SuzanReed> This is so basic, I think many of you are waaaay beyond what this would outline. :)
18:55:01 <TomT5454> Ralph, we don't want to lose you. Would you want to develop a separate outline for HOT-specific material and I can sort out where it goes?
18:55:06 <SuzanReed> Oh, yes, Nick. It’s just fine the way it is.
18:55:43 <Tallguy-Nick> Suzan, I like what you are proposing - I think it works for HOT & OSM
18:55:59 <SuzanReed> I see a HOT thread of modules branching off of this beginners’ guide. And another branch for OSM. 18:56:04 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, I agree that is a subtle but important distinction, HOT Beginner and OSM Beginner, but really I think HOT Beginner comes right after OSM beginner, you have to learn very basic OSM edits first then move on to HOT
18:56:11 <BlakeGirardot> however close in time those two steps might be.
18:56:38 <BlakeGirardot> Just for a good sort of background
18:56:46 <BlakeGirardot> 
18:57:00 <BlarneyJim> Somewhere I got the impression that HOT and OSM should be kept completely separated. Is that accurate?
18:57:08 <BlakeGirardot> Their "Learn To Map" is very generic, but an important first step before them move on to HOT mapping
18:57:09 <TomT5454> #link 
18:57:27 <SuzanReed> Blake, I agree. A newbie needs to know what a node is. That a line is made up of nodes. Very basic stuff.
18:57:33 <BlakeGirardot> exactly
18:58:06 <SuzanReed> That buildings need to be squared. How to do that.
18:58:12 <TomT5454> You use the same editing tools, but with HOT you also have the Task Manager and you generally are into remote mapping (satellite images)
18:58:21 <BlakeGirardot> No HOT and OSM do not _have_ to be separate, it is just some of our HOT mapping is more unique than what "traditional" OSM mapping is about, but as SuzanReed says, points and lines are points and lines :)
18:59:21 <SuzanReed> So we branch off modules for HOT *after* the basics have been covered. Same with more advanced OSM modules.
18:59:25 <TomT5454> And the tools are more essential when doing many buildings.
19:00:08 <TomT5454> Is this OK with you, Ralph?
19:00:26 <SuzanReed> When there’s a crisis, and a shout out goes out on social media, and thousands of new people come and want to know what to do, this will cover those basics AND
19:00:38 <RAytoun> Yes, please continue
19:00:55 <SuzanReed> And when someone needs information on how to use the data they can find a learning module for that, too.
19:01:22 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, in theory, we would create some specific materials for each crisis, "hey, go learn to map in OSM, now this is how you map Nepal for us, what you expect to see etc, tags to use, etc."
19:01:36 <RAytoun> Remember the shout goes out and points them towards their first port of call ... the Tasking Manager ... not OpenStreetMap
19:01:38 <TomT5454> Oh, yes, was going to mention that. Don't know if there are HOT-specific data extraction requirements
19:01:43 <BlakeGirardot> "go _quickly_ learn to map OSM" I mean :)
19:02:05 <BlakeGirardot> That is also a good point RAytoun
19:02:32 <TomT5454> I think you're right, Blake, there's always something unique about a given crisis
19:02:39 <BlakeGirardot> But we should have somewhere that says "Brand new mappers, start here: LearnOSM/beginnner"
19:02:47 <SuzanReed> I saw something on Facebook. I typed in Open Street Maps into my browser.
19:03:00 <BlakeGirardot> in fact sometimes we do point new mappers in projects to the mapgive site
19:03:23 <SteveBower> Sounds like maybe we want a Beginning Mappers Guide that serves both HOT and general OSM. Any other beginner material (like the broader OSM overview, how to use data, etc.) would be in a different guide.
19:03:25 <BlakeGirardot> and often on radio, print, tv interview, we will tell people to get started at mapgive.state.gov
19:03:33 <BlakeGirardot> because it does end with our HOT tasking manager
19:03:46 <SuzanReed> You see, Jim and I are very new, we have the experience of not knowing anything, and wanting to learn very fresh in our experience.
19:05:16 <SuzanReed> I don’t know where this goes. I just want to outline what I think a person without any mapping experience at all needs to know.
19:05:31 <RAytoun> OSM beginners generally start learning how to add their local pub to an existing map base. HOT have to map from nothing and learning to recognise features from imagery is an important aspect of HOT, but not of OSM.
19:05:41 <SteveBower> Or at least, the Beginning Mapper Guide is clearly in a separate module. As long as material needed for new HOT contributors is clearly separate, we're OK.
19:06:22 <SteveBower> Thus it might work best to first map out what's needed for HOT Beginners, then expand that material for general OSM users.
19:06:44 <SuzanReed> So…LearnOSM Beginners’ Guide is different?
19:06:49 <RAytoun> I like that approach Steve
19:07:04 <Tallguy-Nick> HOT beginners are also residents in a disaster area doing ground surveys & updating the data
19:07:10 <SteveBower> @Suzan - Yes, LearnOSM is for the overall OSM community.
19:07:32 <SteveBower> And I think that will include material not relevant to new HOT contributors
19:07:56 <SuzanReed> So….knowing what a node is would be important to both HOT and OSM beginners?
19:08:10 <TomT5454> I think everyone needs to know the basic information Suzan outlined at the beginning, even if it is only a few paragraphs
19:08:10 <RAytoun> We continuously have a problem of thinking that mapping for HOT is the same as mapping for OSM. It is not, they are completely different with different goals in mind
19:08:16 <SuzanReed> Knowing how to set up an account would be germane to both HOT and OSM?
19:08:26 <RAytoun> Accepted
19:08:41 <SteveBower> @Suzan - It seems like you're thinking mainly along the lines of what's needed for new HOT contributors, so why now start there? After that we can consider other material for the broader OSM users, and how to organize it.
19:09:27 <SuzanReed> OK. Good. I was hoping for this kind of conversation to help me understand what’s needed. Thank you.
19:09:52 <SuzanReed> So I will outline what’s needed for a new HOT person.
19:10:10 <SuzanReed> What Jim and I needed to know for instance
. 19:10:27 <SteveBower> @Suzan - sounds good
19:10:37 <SuzanReed> Then we can address the OSM needs like GPS tracing in a later module?
19:11:54 <SteveBower> If we develop a HOT-specific guide (collection of modules) in LearnOSM, it seems much of that would reference other general modules, and other material like in the HOT Training Center.
19:12:16 <SuzanReed> I’d like to call for a vote. Who is in favor of an outline for a beginner’s guide for HOT?
19:12:23 <SteveBower> +1
19:12:36 <RAytoun> .No contest. I am all for it
19:12:37 <BlarneyJim> +1
19:12:38 <SuzanReed> Yes, Steve. Exactly.
19:12:39 <TomT5454> Yes. We were supposed to do this two months ago
19:12:45 <Tallguy-Nick> Yes
19:13:04 <TomT5454> Oh, sorry, HOT-specific. Agreed.
19:13:34 <SuzanReed> It took me some time to figure out the existing material needed to be chucked, and new material written.
19:14:14 <TomT5454> But we definitely need to integrate that as much as we can with LearnOSM for local mappers
19:14:17 <SuzanReed> I thought I could massage it into something less condescending, but it needs to be replaced.
19:14:35 <RAytoun> Now I am in the right group
19:14:56 <SuzanReed> I completely agree, Tom, and I will do that. I have a plan in mind for integration.
19:15:19 <SteveBower> I think the other non-HOT material may still be of use, but organized "around" the HOT-specific material. That way we avoid redundant material and serve both user groups.
19:15:51 <TomT5454> Can we do that and avoid an explosion on OSM-Talk?
19:16:05 <SuzanReed> As above, there will be branches to GSP Tracking, and so on.
19:16:06 <SteveBower> @Ralph - ha ha!
19:16:32 <RAytoun> Glad I was able to inject some humour
19:17:02 <SteveBower> @Tom - Shouldn't be an issue. I think LearnOSM will still be similar to and better than what we have now.
19:17:39 <SuzanReed> I don’t know Hackpad. Can someone put this outline on Hackpad for me when it’s ready to be looked at? Would Hackpad be the best place to post it so we can all comment?
19:17:57 <SteveBower> @Suzan/Jim - You might avoid (at least minimize) specific references to HOT. Make it OSM generic. Then the HOT-specific material will refer to the beginner module.
19:18:27 <TomT5454> I can set you up with HackPad, I think
19:18:28 <SuzanReed> Yes, Steve. Completely agree
. 19:18:44 <RAytoun> @Steve. LearnOSM is already 100% better than it was thanks to the tireless efforts of Nick and others.
19:19:06 <SteveBower> @Ralph - absolutely!
19:20:07 <Tallguy-Nick> thankyou
19:20:21 <SuzanReed> I see my job as taking all the knowledge and experience you all have and being a conduit. I am just the writer. The “reference material” comes from all the work all of you have done.
19:21:14 <TomT5454> Summarize?
19:21:22 <SteveBower> please
19:21:39 <SuzanReed> Jim, you are good at this, would you please summarize?
19:21:56 <TomT5454> OK, we seem to be agreed that we start with needs of the HOT beginner.
19:22:12 <BlarneyJim> When I first discovered HOT, my goal was to get in and start mapping. The more I tried to learn about mapping , the more I found lots of helpful info... too much. Let's put an outline together that will point to the end goal.
19:22:15 <SuzanReed> BUT! We don’t say anything about HOT!
19:22:27 <SuzanReed> :) :) :)
19:22:38 <TomT5454> Suzan has an idea for outline, which she will put up on HackPad for comment
19:23:10 <TomT5454> We will also develop modules specific to the needs of local mappers.
19:24:06 <TomT5454> We will isolate common material and reuse it in both the HOT and local mapping modules
19:24:08 <SuzanReed> Can we agree on what Tom just said?
19:24:23 <RAytoun> Yes
19:25:08 <TomT5454> #action (Just to give a time point)
19:25:09 <SteveBower> @Tom - I think it's the needs of local and remote mappers, if I understand the terms correctly
19:25:19 <RAytoun> Just remember that new HOT mappers are there to help save lives and help people in need, which is not the overall aim of OSM
19:26:15 <SteveBower> @Suzan - You might consider outlining a separate HOT Beginner's Guide that references the general OSM Guide as needed, as part of the same effort (which you may already be planning on)
19:26:21 <BlarneyJim> @Ralph, great point.
19:26:33 <TomT5454> When we get into data usage there may not be the same remote/local distinction
19:26:34 <SuzanReed> Yes, Ralph. But we don’t need to say that specifically. New mappers need basic information that’s concise, easy-to-undersand, and that covers the most basic information.
19:26:57 <SteveBower> In any case, let's please clearly define "local" and "remote" when we get there
19:28:00 <SuzanReed> Yes! We will define “local” and “remote”. I would like to see that in this first guide. I didn’t understand at first that there were people on the ground. One sentence. That’s all that’s needed.
19:28:07 <TomT5454> Even local looks at images -- I do. That's where weighing of information comes in. But the key point is that a remote mapper relies on local people to fill in details
19:29:59 <RAytoun> First mapping is remote with the basic features and infrastructure, then the people on the ground start adding in detailed information.
19:30:08 <SuzanReed> I think you will all be happy with what is in this first, very basic module. Let’s agree I can outline it. Then you can comment on what’s left out, what needs to be put in. I think we are getting to content rather than just agreeing an outline is the best way to start.
19:30:49 <TomT5454> Yes, let's get that outline agreed
19:30:56 <SuzanReed> I’m waaaay back at how to get this started.
19:31:02 <SteveBower> @Suzan - To clarify, I don't think you need to outline a HOT Beginner's Guide in the first pass - but at some point I assume HOT beginners will be directed to a HOT Beginner's Guide, which will point to appropriate OSM Beginner material.
19:31:28 <SuzanReed> @Steve, yes.
19:31:32 <BlarneyJim> @Suzan, do you need anything else to get going?
19:32:12 <SuzanReed> I don’t need anything more. Thank you everyone for all your input on content, Much appreciated!
19:32:23 <SuzanReed> I will go and do now.
19:33:06 <TomT5454> OK, other business?
19:33:11 <BlarneyJim> @Suz, cool, let me know if you need my help with anything in the starting.
19:33:16 <Tallguy-Nick> #link 
19:33:27 <Tallguy-Nick> updated so others can see how the translation process is managed.
19:33:32 <TomT5454> #topic Other Business
19:33:35 <RAytoun> Thank you @Suzan for taking on this responsibility
19:33:59 <Tallguy-Nick> would you like the other bits about learnOSM?
19:34:10 <TomT5454> Sure
19:34:35 <Tallguy-Nick> Swahili sections placed on LearnOSM for team there to translate - iD-editor, glossary, some more JOSM sections.
19:34:52 <Tallguy-Nick> Any suggestions of a method of version control? Just using Transifex would cover it, but we can't do that, so need a way of keeping track of modules that are being translated using GitHub (in last month or so, this has included German, Spanish & Swahili).
19:35:33 <BlakeGirardot> I have a question related to that Nick
19:36:14 <RAytoun> How about dating the work so we know when it needs updating
19:36:55 <BlakeGirardot> I don't quite understand what you mean Transifex would cover it, but we can't do that ?
19:36:56 <TomT5454> Git includes version control. I would have to dig out the particulars for you.
19:37:03 <Tallguy-Nick> I put a date in, but the problem comes when a slight change is made - how do we manage it for the other languages. A single update can mean 11 languages need amending
19:38:03 <Tallguy-Nick> With Transifex when a change is made, I update the file on the site and it shows for each of the languages - simple.
19:38:21 <Tallguy-Nick> For Github we need to create a record to show what needs updating where
19:38:21 <TomT5454> Simplest would be a version number attached to each language in a spreadsheet.
19:39:17 <TomT5454> but Git must have this as a fundamental capability
19:39:22 <SteveBower> @Tom - perhaps with major and minor versions, "x.y". Minor updates increment the minor version.
19:39:46 <TomT5454> .. meaning less urgency to translate?
19:39:53 <SteveBower> Yes
19:39:56 <SuzanReed> (I need to go now. I will follow up in email.)
19:40:04 <Tallguy-Nick> If we add a slight amendment to a sentence in English, for instance advising not to delete someone's work, we need to show that this needs updating in each of the other languages
19:40:12 <TomT5454> OK, is this meeting time OK?
19:40:58 <TomT5454> Going forward is 1800 UTC workable for everyone?
19:41:04 <SteveBower> yes
19:41:08 <Tallguy-Nick> time works for me
19:41:13 <RAytoun> yes
19:41:41 <TomT5454> Lost Suzan. Sorry to do that out of order
19:42:31 <TomT5454> Going back to version control, I'll see what we can do with Git
19:42:55 <SteveBower> Perhaps define "minor update" as "an update that doesn't require urgent translation to other languages"
19:43:40 <Tallguy-Nick> If we thought it worth updating, surely it needs to appear in the other languages?
19:44:43 <Tallguy-Nick> Thanks Tom
19:44:43 <SteveBower> But practically speaking, sometimes we make minor cosmetic updates.
19:44:49 <TomT5454> Agreed, but this a matter of resource priority. If your Swahili speaker already has plenty in hand, this indicates which items to tackle next.
19:45:15 <SteveBower> If translation resources are limited, someone would know whether or not there was "urgency", as there would be for new functionality, or a major re-write.
19:46:00 <Tallguy-Nick> Bear in mind that the number of translatons that have actually taken place in the last 2 months are very small
19:46:16 <RAytoun> We do also need to address the need to streamline. At present you are talking about only 11 languages
19:46:48 <Tallguy-Nick> Sorry I don't understand 'streamline'
19:46:57 <TomT5454> We definitely want to cover the UN five
19:48:04 <RAytoun> With the present methods being used what is the capacity for increasing the number of languages and maintaining them?
19:48:53 <TomT5454> Ralph, are you suggesting cutting down on the number of language?. Or do we say: we will support languages X, Y, and Z as priorities, but volunteer translations to other languages are welcome?
19:49:06 <Tallguy-Nick> Using Transifex is easy & the number is unlimited - if the translators are available
19:49:30 <Tallguy-Nick> #link 
19:49:45 <Tallguy-Nick> link shows what is/has actually happened in last 2 months
19:50:08 <Tallguy-Nick> with a selection of only 20 modules
19:54:20 <RAytoun> @Nick has put his finger on it, the number of translators available is important to maintenance
19:54:50 <TomT5454> Anyway, the requirement for version control is to capture the nature of the update, assign a version number, and track latest version for each module-language combination
19:56:42 <TomT5454> OK, leaving aside the resource problem, anything else to say?
19:57:33 <Tallguy-Nick> I'll contact Jim & Suzan - need to know if Tasking Manager module is ready for translation - don't want that to get too far behind in case of an activation with newbies
19:58:10 <TomT5454> Next meeting is Aug. 28 at 1800 UTC.
19:58:41 <TomT5454> Thanks, everyone
19:58:49 <TomT5454> #endmeeting