Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/2016-06-06

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Meeting Summary

Meeting started by SteveBower at 19:00:41 UTC (Tallguy-Nick could not make the meeting). The full logs are available below, at the end of these meeting minutes.

Review/approval of agenda

Review/approval of previous meeting minutes

Quick start guide on LearnOSM for HOT TM

  • No update
  • Steve B will check in with Suzan Reed and Blake Girardot on the status

Set Up LearnOSM staging site

HOT Training Centre

  • Russell reported that the HTC will be very temporarily down for Moodle upgrade at some undetermined time, but it shouldn't affect anyone for any significant length of time. Not a lot of current students, but a few.

Backup for Nick - LearnOSM & Transifex update processes

Mapathon / Event Management - LearnOSM "How To" Module

  • Ralph sent a revised draft for review/comment to the mail list on June 6, subject line "Training WG meeting Monday 6 June, 1900 UTC"
  • Added a section on the way the London Mapathon has evolved plus a few other additions. With a few more pics will be at or near completion.
  • Nick is sorting out where will be located, probably as part of LearnOSM.
  • Steven Johnson noted it would be good to mirror on TeachOSM.

Create LearnOSM module on Tasking Manager Admin

Update a LearnOSM module - full workflow

  • Agreement that the workflow checklist on Trello board is essentially complete, and the Trello card can be moved to Completed Projects (Steve B will confirm with Nick)
  • Steve B noted this could eventually be part of the "Contributing to LearnOSM" guide, and is in the outline for that guide

LearnOSM updates (Tallguy-Nick)

  • No update

Any Other Business

  • Ralph raised the issue of the Potlatch editor, still used by many people and an option on the Tasking Manager, but no reference to it in LearnOSM
  • Russell shared a report of changesets/edits by Potlatch users in last 30 days (~12,000 changesets).
  • Potlatch 2 wiki documentation :
  • Steve B suggested that other editors could be at least referenced on the "JOSM - Advanced Editing" guide's intro page
  • Potlatch is a browser-based editor using Adobe Flash
  • Steven J said he would keep it simple and limit LearnOSM to iD and JOSM, and just point to the Potlatch wiki
  • Ralph noted the problem is with new mappers not at a Mapathon, who have the choice and can choose Potlatch2 ... so why do we not advise at the start up as to choice of editor?
  • Agreement to add this as a new topic, to continue discussing at the next meeting

Date of Next Meeting

  • 20 June 2016, 1900 UTC
  • On IRC #hot channel

Meeting ended at 20:12:51 UTC

Action items, by person

  • Steve Bower to check in with Suzan R and Blake G on the Quick-start Guide status
  • Steve B to check with Nick on moving "Update a LearnOSM module - full workflow" to Completed Projects
  • Steve B to add Trello Board card for referencing other editors in LearnOSM

Full meeting logs

3:00:41 PM SteveBower #startmeeting HOT Training WG
3:00:45 PM SteveBower Hi Ralph
3:01:03 PM michael63 Hi all (back after some time)
3:01:06 PM SteveBower Saw your email, haven't had time to review the doc yet
3:01:15 PM SteveBower Hi Michael
3:02:06 PM SteveBower Nick can't make it today, so I offered to moderate
3:02:49 PM RAytoun @Steve. Thanks Nick I believe is away on some field trip with Pete Masters
3:02:52 PM russdeffner Hi Steve and all
3:02:58 PM russdeffner I think the bot is off
3:03:14 PM SteveBower Hi Russ - know how to jump start it?
3:03:53 PM russdeffner maybe this works: # dodobas are you there?
3:03:53 PM s1114u9 joined the channel.
3:03:57 PM s1114u9 left the channel.
3:04:11 PM Steven__ hi all
3:04:22 PM RAytoun Hi all
3:04:34 PM michael63 if you can't get it to work, you can grab the log from here as well:
3:04:40 PM SteveBower When I logged on I got the msg "The topic is: ... Topic set by meetbot_hot`!~supybot@"
3:04:50 PM SteveBower #dodobas are you there?
3:04:58 PM SteveBower # dodobas are you there?
3:05:18 PM SteveBower hmmm ... no answer (trying to get the bot started)
3:05:32 PM russdeffner yes, not sure what happened but after tech wg the bot logged off
3:05:49 PM russdeffner I see the osmbot-test but not sure it does the meeting stuff
3:06:06 PM SteveBower #link
3:07:15 PM SteveBower #endmeeting
3:07:39 PM MaggieMaps joined the channel.
3:07:40 PM SteveBower yep - not working - but I don't want to hold everyone up, so let's get started
3:07:47 PM Steven__ sounds good
3:07:56 PM russdeffner you'll have to do the 'old fashioned' way :)
3:08:05 PM SteveBower I'll list topics as usual, and will create minutes manually
3:08:13 PM SteveBower #topic Review/approval of agenda
3:08:30 PM SteveBower Agenda is at
3:08:32 PM Steven__ Last meeting was 4/11, correct?
3:08:49 PM SteveBower Yes, per the web page
3:09:21 PM maxerickson joined the channel.
3:09:28 PM TOGA joined the channel.
3:09:34 PM SteveBower Since we have a standing systematic agenda (based on the Trello board), everyone OK if we drop this item from the agenda?
3:09:48 PM SteveBower We always have "new business" on the agenda for new topics
3:10:19 PM Steven__ Works for me
3:10:26 PM SteveBower Last chance to discuss the agenda topic (feeling recursive...)
3:10:38 PM SteveBower OK, let's move on
3:10:40 PM SteveBower #topic Review/approval of previous meeting minutes
3:10:56 PM SteveBower As far as I know they haven't been reviewed
3:11:19 PM SteveBower #link
3:11:30 PM russdeffner I'm fine with what's there as far as HTC is concerned
3:11:57 PM RAytoun Looks fine to me
3:12:02 PM Steven__ Fine
3:12:05 PM SteveBower OK, moving on
3:12:26 PM SteveBower #topic Quick Start Guide for HOT TM mapping
3:12:57 PM SteveBower I don't think Suzan and Blake are here.
3:13:15 PM SteveBower This is stalled - I can contact them for an update, see if we can nudge this forward. It was 80% done.
3:13:35 PM russdeffner BlakeGirardot is logged/was on for techwg - you around still?
3:14:17 PM russdeffner probably just still logged, but afk, move along :)
3:14:21 PM SteveBower OK
3:14:23 PM SteveBower #topic Setup LearnOSM Staging Site
3:14:49 PM SteveBower That's Blake & Nick, so unless anyone has any news on that, I'll move on...
3:14:56 PM SteveBower #topic HOT Training Centre
3:15:24 PM russdeffner just one update
3:15:53 PM russdeffner #note HTC will be very temporarily down for Moodle upgrade
3:16:19 PM russdeffner not going to announce or anything at it will be 'at Drazen's convienence'
3:16:40 PM russdeffner shouldn't affect anyone for any significant length of time
3:16:47 PM SteveBower OK - thanks for the heads-up
3:17:01 PM russdeffner everythings backed up and such and I'll log-in to make sure it's all good once finished
3:17:20 PM SteveBower #topic Develop backup & documentation for LearnOSM & Transifex processes
3:17:30 PM russdeffner otherwise still just plugging along, not a lot, but a few students; that's it
3:17:48 PM SteveBower OK - sorry I jumped ahead
3:18:06 PM russdeffner no prob
3:18:32 PM SteveBower This topic's me & Nick - I made good progress, completed the outline quite a few weeks back, then neglected to push it forward.
3:19:00 PM SteveBower I need to contact Jessica Canepa again. I'll get that going again.
3:19:23 PM SteveBower As a reminder, current plan is to create a new LearnOSM module on how to contribute to LearnOSM & Transifex.
3:19:32 PM SteveBower #topic Mapathon/Event Management How-To
3:19:34 PM SteveBower Ralph?
3:19:48 PM FredB joined the channel.
3:19:59 PM RAytoun Have made some more progress
3:20:01 PM danielsj has quit:
3:20:04 PM TheDoudou_a joined the channel.
3:20:41 PM RAytoun Added a section on the way the London Mapathon has evolved plus a few other additions
3:21:32 PM RAytoun I still need to complete the ending of a Mapathon
3:21:54 PM Steven__ @RAytoun did you want comments? or review? Or...?
3:22:25 PM SteveBower Ralph emailed a revised draft to Training WG list,
3:22:27 PM RAytoun Comments and new ideas are always welcome
3:22:53 PM Steven__ okay, I got the new one you just sent, so I'll review
3:23:18 PM RAytoun New stuff is highlighted in yellow
3:23:24 PM Steven__ okay
3:24:25 PM RAytoun Other than that and a few more pics it is getting to completion stage
3:24:28 PM SteveBower I'm not seeing the yellow highlighting - probably just the viewer, might need to view in Open Office
3:24:42 PM SteveBower ... to see the highlighting
3:24:54 PM SteveBower At the top of the doc it looks like there are 4 links to the draft. Where do you plan for the final version to reside?
3:25:46 PM RAytoun Nick is sorting out where it will go, at this stage I believe it slots into the LearnOSM somewhere
3:26:00 PM Steven__ Would be happy to have it mirrored on TeachOSM as well
3:26:15 PM RAytoun I have no objection to that
3:26:39 PM Steven__ super
3:27:14 PM SteveBower OK. Would be great if we could all review & comment - thank Ralph
3:27:45 PM SteveBower #topic Create LearnOSM module on Tasking Manager Admin
3:28:11 PM SteveBower This topic is Nick's - anyone have any update?
3:28:17 PM Steven__ I do.
3:28:46 PM Steven__ I made some first edits a few weeks back. Need to push those forwward and complete.
3:29:26 PM Steven__ I forked the project from Nick, but his site is throwing a 404 so merging a pull request might be a challenge. ;-)
3:29:37 PM Steven__ ...but it's just markdown
3:29:55 PM SteveBower markdown makes it simpler, right  ;->
3:30:40 PM SteveBower anything else?
3:30:58 PM russdeffner just looking forward to it
3:31:02 PM Steven__ no, that's it.
3:31:06 PM SteveBower #topic Update a LearnOSM module - full workflow
3:31:50 PM SteveBower Ralph - Anything on this?
3:32:03 PM russdeffner I don't know the 'hands-on', but it looks like the trello card 'check-list' is pretty 'complete'
3:32:20 PM russdeffner not sure that is the 'final destination' for that information though
3:32:43 PM RAytoun I have nothing on this
3:32:56 PM SteveBower This checklist could be folded into the new LearnOSM module on how to contribute to LearnOSM
3:33:04 PM SteveBower ... and Transifex
3:33:25 PM Steven__ Agree w/ Russ: this seems pretty complete.
3:33:34 PM Steven__ was there a reason this stands alone?
3:33:47 PM SteveBower #link
3:33:54 PM russdeffner I guess some screen captures and it could be a module
3:34:04 PM SteveBower just how it evolved in Trello, I think
3:34:25 PM RAytoun Nick put it together
3:34:41 PM RAytoun And asked me to set it up as a check list
3:34:47 PM russdeffner yes, not sure we ever really decided 'what to do with a workflow' but that we needed it
3:35:17 PM SteveBower I have a placekeeper for it the outline for the new LearnOSM module, under Special Topics
3:35:22 PM Steven__ looks like meta-information, exists for the benefit of the working group
3:35:25 PM SteveBower #link
3:36:14 PM russdeffner ah, great
3:36:40 PM russdeffner so yes the 'update workflow' more just a small piece of 'how to maintain LearnOSM'
3:36:49 PM Steven__ exactly
3:37:08 PM Steven__ it's really reference matl for the WG
3:37:20 PM russdeffner yep
3:37:48 PM russdeffner can really help with 'on-boarding' volunteers
3:38:10 PM RAytoun I believe that was the idea behind it
3:38:40 PM SteveBower So I think it's fine as is for now, and can be revisited later to determine how best to fit into a new module on how to contribute to LearnOSM
3:39:17 PM Steven__ agree
3:39:24 PM SteveBower Anything else on this topic?
3:39:41 PM russdeffner yep, have small desire to move the card to complete, but will defer to Nick if maybe he wasn't done with it
3:40:04 PM russdeffner sorry yep I agree, not really anything else on topic :)
3:40:32 PM SteveBower That's a good idea - I can confirm with Nick, I'm pretty sure it's fine and ready
3:40:37 PM SteveBower #topic Any Other Business
3:40:50 PM RAytoun I have something new to raise
3:41:23 PM RAytoun As the training WG I want to ask about Potlatch
3:41:41 PM SteveBower What angle?
3:42:17 PM RAytoun Everyone is concentrating on iD and JOSM but nothing is being done regarding Potlatch
3:43:06 PM Steven__ I think Potlatch has been all but deprecated, no?
3:43:27 PM SteveBower I'm pretty ignorant about it. My impression is that it's used by long-time users, but not new users. Is that the case?
3:43:27 PM russdeffner not really
3:43:38 PM Steven__ Richard Fairhurst was at the 2013 SotMUS and encouraged all to move to iD
3:43:38 PM russdeffner it's an interesting topic
3:43:42 PM RAytoun I have moved to a new area and was looking at the 'nearby mappers' abd it is amazing how many have chosen Potlatch as their choice of editor
3:43:53 PM Steven__ ...and Richard is the developer of Potlatch.
3:44:24 PM RAytoun Potlatch is also still a choice on the latest Tasking Manager
3:44:31 PM russdeffner There's still a lot of people using it
3:44:58 PM RAytoun And yet we have no helping guides for Potlatch users
3:45:02 PM russdeffner wether or not we 'ignore them' is a good question
3:45:25 PM SteveBower On LearnOSM, should be be giving (or revising) advice about what editor to use?
3:46:21 PM russdeffner
3:46:22 PM SteveBower The Beginner Guide uses iD, and we have the "JOSM - Detailed Editing" guide.
3:46:27 PM Steven__ @SteveBower in some sense, yes
3:46:50 PM SteveBower But nothing on potlatch in LearnOSM, as far as I know
3:47:05 PM maxerickson People stuck with Internet Explorer 10 or earlier will be pushed to Potlatch...
3:47:33 PM michael63 I have a small netbook which shows better performance with Potlatch - iD drives it to its limit. So this sounds like a viable alternative for limited resources. But before we dive into producing a Potlatch guide we should try to get some information about the lifetime of that editor
3:47:41 PM RAytoun I am sending a few graphics to the working group email
3:47:47 PM SteveBower @Russell - that's a lot of potlatch!
3:48:03 PM Steven__ if people feel strongly about it, why not point to the Potlatch 2 documentation on the wiki?
3:48:04 PM russdeffner but compared to others, not
3:48:35 PM russdeffner it's actually an interesting research topic; not who uses the most, but what type of mapper uses what and other questions
3:48:50 PM SteveBower still - ~12k changesets in the last 30 days is significant
3:49:06 PM russdeffner maybe most P2 users are not new and wouldn't necessarily use LearnOSM?
3:49:28 PM Steven__ @russdeffner that's what I think. most are older users
3:49:35 PM Steven__ older = experienced ;-)
3:50:01 PM TheDoudou_a has quit:
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3:50:10 PM russdeffner however, I like to think that P2 users are more productive and it might be backed up if you look at 'number of changes per user per editor' - JOSM definitely wins :))
3:50:39 PM RAytoun I found that 2009 - 2012 in the UK most beginners not at a Mapathon tried P2
3:51:11 PM RAytoun I agree JOSM is the preferred
3:52:04 PM russdeffner anyway, I tend to agree that we are 'missing' P2 info in Learn
3:52:05 PM ptressel joined the channel.
3:52:22 PM BlakeGirardot Sorry I am late
3:52:35 PM SteveBower I see P2 is Flash-based. The future of Flash is uncertain, but I expect Flash-based apps will slowly be depricated over time.
3:52:36 PM RAytoun Something to think about to discuss at the next meeting?
3:52:38 PM SteveBower Hi Blake
3:52:42 PM russdeffner not sure it is 'high priority' and historically I think in V1 of Learn, it was 'only teach JOSM' because then we start talking about 'all' the editors we should teach
3:53:26 PM Steven__ right, I just don't see a huge demand for P2-related training matl
3:53:42 PM russdeffner understand that shifted at some point as we had a need to teach an in-browser editor for mapathons, etc
3:54:05 PM SteveBower P2 is in-browser, right? Just requires Flash.
3:54:10 PM Steven__ right
3:54:10 PM russdeffner yep
3:54:33 PM SteveBower Which is a security problem for some sites, like academic sites
3:55:25 PM SteveBower Is this a topic we want to add for more discussion, next meeting?
3:55:26 PM russdeffner I think however that as we look at updates, maybe we do 'need' to start talking about 'all' the various editors as mobile stuff continues to grow
3:56:26 PM russdeffner not necesarily teach editing for them all, but maybe the intro modules should have a few captures from various editors to 'compare'
3:57:01 PM SteveBower For example, the intro page to "JOSM - detailed editing"
3:57:14 PM Steven__ I would keep it simple and limit it to iD and JOSM.
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3:57:48 PM SteveBower @Steven__ I agree, in terms of detailed training material
3:58:45 PM russdeffner So, basically we somewhat have gone in both these directions...
3:59:13 PM russdeffner the beginners guides (mostly) around iD
3:59:13 PM SteveBower @Russ - What directions?
3:59:34 PM RAytoun At least we should have a list of editors that are in use, such as Meerkartor, Vespucci, Mapzen, etc.
4:00:06 PM russdeffner then some of what was 'intermediate' is the JOSM stuff, but we to have more that gets into Field Papers, etc. etc.
4:00:37 PM CGI411 joined the channel.
4:01:50 PM SteveBower A quick fix would be to add basic info on other editors to the "welcome" page to the "JOSM - detailed editing" module
4:01:53 PM russdeffner so maybe we can stay with 'intro to iD and JOSM' as the bulk of the 'beginners' guides', but maybe have an 'other editors' module and if we want to do something complex like a Field Papers module, that 'stays' in the moderate to advanced guides?
4:01:59 PM SteveBower #link
4:02:56 PM SteveBower The Beginner's guide is all iD. JOSM is an "advanced" module.
4:03:30 PM RAytoun The problem is with those starters who are not at a Mapathon, as in the country towns. They have the choice and can choose P2 ... and they do.... so why do we not advise at the start up as to choice of editor?
4:03:41 PM russdeffner yes, sorry - my 'old' terminology mixing in
4:04:10 PM russdeffner had to click throught those beginner guides again...
4:04:57 PM russdeffner think where I see us 'go off' is that first paragraph of the iD module
4:05:05 PM russdeffner "The iD editor is the de facto, browser-based OpenStreetMap editor."
4:05:33 PM BlakeGirardot de facto is probably supposed to be default maybe
4:05:40 PM RAytoun Ooooops!
4:05:53 PM russdeffner it's a rather rigid statement, which gives the 'go ahead' to 'forget P2'
4:06:10 PM SteveBower We effectively do advise, to use iD to start, then progress to JOSM
4:06:19 PM russdeffner so I think it's something to ponder; do we go with it, or 'loosen' the language
4:06:39 PM BlakeGirardot I would change it to 'default' think that is what it is supposed to mean anyway.
4:06:43 PM Steven__ i'm fine with forgetting P2 entirely and just pointing to the wiki
4:06:54 PM SteveBower There were several recent posts to HOT mail list on promoting use of JOSM for mapathons, but I haven't read them yet.
4:07:15 PM RAytoun Pointing to the wiki is at least "not ignoring them"
4:07:32 PM SteveBower How about we make this a topic for next week?
4:07:56 PM SteveBower I think there's enough to discuss, and we're over an hour already.
4:08:05 PM RAytoun Good idea, gives us all a chance to give it some thought
4:08:19 PM SteveBower Yep
4:08:26 PM Steven__ agree
4:08:34 PM Steven__ good discussion
4:08:50 PM SteveBower I'll add it to Trello. Any other new business for today?
4:09:05 PM russdeffner I'm good
4:09:09 PM SteveBower Wondering who can get the bot going again. @Russell, something you could look into?
4:09:17 PM Steven__ i'm fine
4:09:37 PM russdeffner I'm not sure where it 'lives'; Blake do you?
4:09:38 PM RAytoun Nothing more from me
4:09:48 PM BlakeGirardot It lives on a machine
4:09:55 PM BlakeGirardot that Milo controls
4:10:02 PM BlakeGirardot He said he would restart it.
4:10:02 PM BlakeGirardot but
4:10:16 PM BlakeGirardot that might not fix it since I think dodobas banned it
4:10:30 PM BlakeGirardot so he could run his own copy for the tech wg meeting earlier
4:10:39 PM russdeffner oh, aha
4:10:41 PM BlakeGirardot I think dodobas plans to install a copy on hot server
4:10:52 PM russdeffner that's what's up, thanks - makes sense
4:10:57 PM Steven__ yep
4:11:16 PM SteveBower Can we expect it to be resolved before our next meeting?
4:11:19 PM BlakeGirardot yes
4:11:38 PM SteveBower good
4:11:51 PM SteveBower OK, anything else?
4:11:59 PM Steven__ not from me
4:12:45 PM SteveBower OK, that's all folks. Next meeting June 20, same time, same station.
4:12:51 PM SteveBower Thanks everyone

Minutes prepared by Steve Bower from detailed log.