Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/29 September 2014
15:01:59 Jorieke: Hello
15:02:20 bgirardot: I am replying now. We can chat a bit more about it after this meeting.
15:02:29 Tallguy: ok thanks
15:02:34 Jorieke: is there a log of last weeks working group somewhere?
15:03:13 bgirardot: Yes, from the training WG wiki page, I'll get the link for you.
15:03:16 harry-wood1: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/22_September_2014
15:03:25 bgirardot: :)
15:03:30 Jorieke: thanks
15:04:04 clairedelune: Hello there, I can see a few people there for the Training WG meeting. Can we start?
15:05:20 harry-wood1: I think so
15:05:27 Tallguy: good with me
15:05:44 bgirardot: Me too
15:05:52 Jorieke: yep :-)
15:05:58 harry-wood1: There's an agenda doc here for the previous meeting (22nd) : https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-September-22-2014-9NzuP5yITYw
15:06:09 harry-wood1: Did you have one for todays meeting?
15:07:04 clairedelune: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-September-29-2014-2rYL7LZIJDN
15:10:20 clairedelune: So at the moment we do not have much on the table.
15:10:39 clairedelune: Tallguy, do you want to start?
15:11:18 Tallguy: Okay, thanks. I've quickly put together an example of how a 'feedback page' could look on TM
15:11:36 Tallguy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sfqfFlk2um6JDhTM8OlKEQE1dpBRAyZbHrEloYpsNTo/edit#gid=0
15:12:49 clairedelune: And how much does the new commenting system still needs to be adapted? (I haven't had the chance to test it yet sorry)
15:13:22 Tallguy: I haven't had the chance to test it yet, but it looks extremely good
15:13:40 bgirardot: You mean the @name system that was added?
15:14:00 clairedelune: yes
15:14:10 bgirardot: I have tested it and it is helpful for sure
15:14:35 bgirardot: It is all in the TM2 message system, not OSM message system
15:14:53 clairedelune: so do you get the notification by mail?
15:14:58 bgirardot: If you @name someone they get a notice in their tm2 message system mail box
15:15:08 bgirardot: that has the comment the @name appeared in
15:15:15 clairedelune: do you have access to a list of all comments sent to you?
15:15:33 bgirardot: You would have a list of the message in the tm2 system
15:15:39 bgirardot: but have to click on each one
15:15:45 bgirardot: to see what its content is
15:15:57 bgirardot: I think it is step in the right direction for sure
15:16:01 Tallguy: Does the message automatically link the square it was created from?
15:16:05 pgiraud: clairedelune, only if you're mentionned explicitely or if a task you worked is invalidated
15:16:11 pgiraud: Tallguy, yes
15:16:37 pgiraud: bgirardot, you're right, just a small step
15:16:37 clairedelune: Thanks pgiraud
15:16:49 bgirardot: what i like about it is that you can mention all the people who ediited a task
15:16:52 pgiraud: not satisfactory yet
15:17:25 bgirardot: @blake @tallguy @pgiraud The buildings needed some squaring but I took care of it. The roads all looked great
15:17:43 Tallguy: It sounds like a vast improvement to me - I look forward to using it as it will be a lot quicker for me
15:17:44 bgirardot: And everyone will get the message, not just the person who marked it complete
15:18:32 clairedelune: if you don't mention names, will anyone get a notification (person who has completed the task)?
15:18:34 bgirardot: Ya, I think it is great really, I didn't mean to make it sound like wasn't
15:19:15 pgiraud: pay attention to the fact that the users won't get notified unless they open the tasking manager and see the badge close to their names in the top bar
15:20:03 pgiraud: clairedelune, people are automatically notified if the task is invalidated
15:20:34 pgiraud: in other cases, you have to explicitely mention them
15:20:41 emirhartato: @pgiraud hi... sorry, can I join?
15:21:10 pgiraud: hey, I'm not really attending the meeting
15:21:13 emirhartato: @pgiraud just a question... is thr user also got email notifications?
15:21:15 clairedelune: pgiraud, do you think it would be feasible to address the adjustments still mentionned? (like a summary list of comments got by a user for instance)
15:21:23 pgiraud: I was just answering questions about the tasking manager
15:21:30 emirhartato: ah okay :)
15:21:38 clairedelune: but thank you anyway
15:22:01 clairedelune: of course, welcome Emir
15:22:11 pgiraud: the "messaging" system in the tasking manager needs improvements
15:22:25 pgiraud: it needs to be designed
15:22:35 pgiraud: I think there are a lot of ideas already
15:23:20 pgiraud: we just need to digest everything, and come back with a technical proposal
15:23:35 clairedelune: Should we send a formal request to the Technical WG, or to you?
15:24:05 pgiraud: any proposal should go to the github issues
15:24:22 pgiraud: we do already have a lot of issues related to that though
15:25:07 pgiraud: emirhartato, no emails for now
15:25:22 pgiraud: I'm sorry, I have to go now
15:26:15 clairedelune: thank you pgiraud, I suggest we look at the current github issues and try to summarize what's still needed from our point of view
15:27:03 pgiraud: for your information, some of us already said that we like the github's way to manage notifications
15:28:30 Tallguy: I'd like some discussion - validators comments summary - if it is implemented, who sees it? Mapper only, anyone, or mapper plus a 'validator group'
15:29:04 clairedelune: https://github.com/hotosm/hotosm/issues?q=Tasking+manager
15:29:51 emirhartato: I would say anyone should capable to see the comments, so other users can learn mistakes each other
15:30:28 Jorieke: But I would not feel comfortable if anybody could see I'm only making mistakes...
15:31:06 Jorieke: I feel more like: mapper and validator group
15:31:10 clairedelune: I think other mappers opening the task should be able to see the other mappers comments exchanged (like now) but maybe not the entire history of someone lese
15:31:31 Jorieke: agree
15:31:55 Tallguy: I agree, which complicates it as you have to set up a group - validators - and decide who they are
15:32:53 clairedelune: (Tallguy, I was not mentionning a validator group)
15:33:10 clairedelune: do you think it would be useful?
15:33:35 clairedelune: who would decide who has the right to be part of it? statistics?
15:33:46 Tallguy: When validating it would be useful to know if anohter validator has already given coaching info - but we manage without it now
15:34:02 bgirardot: How much coaching info does one mapper usually get?
15:34:40 bgirardot: I mean how much do they need do you think too
15:34:49 bgirardot: If I get square my buildings a few times
15:34:55 clairedelune: I you opened a task that someone completed, you would still be seeing the comments exchanged, whoever you are I think
15:35:01 bgirardot: I am going to square my buildings or stop mapping probably
15:35:30 Tallguy: Most get very little - first couple of squares usually something about junctions & buildings, then they don't get anything else substantial
15:35:56 bgirardot: But do they need more really or does one or two comments get them going on the right track
15:36:08 bgirardot: I haven't spoken to as many people as you have
15:36:26 bgirardot: but my experienc has been a little bit of feedback and they are on their way. mine is usually about roads
15:37:48 bgirardot: But mroe positive feedback ongoing for sure would help, I am thinking more of the corrective feedback
15:38:02 Jorieke: Maybe it is also an idea to give besides the comments, to give a link to LearnOSM on the first page of the TM (next to the link of the mailinglist and irc)
15:38:29 clairedelune: Tallguy, bgirardot, do you think we should have a validator group with special rights attributed? And if so, why?
15:39:02 bgirardot: I don't think so really
15:39:21 Tallguy: clairedelune at the moment I think a separate group would be a bad move - there are not enough of us & don't want to discourage
15:39:24 clairedelune: Yes Jorieke, pierzen had mentionned a few times already there should be tabs with some links towards Learning material
15:39:58 bgirardot: My only concern is that people who provide feedback do so as gently and positively as possible
15:40:05 clairedelune: Ok, I agree we don't need it neither.
15:40:13 bgirardot: Of which tallguy is the master :)
15:40:54 clairedelune: ;-)
15:40:59 Jorieke: :-)
15:41:02 clairedelune: I think that not having the ability to access all the comments sent to someone helps also to stay gentle and positive
15:41:27 clairedelune: it helps to not judge about the entire mapping experience...
15:41:28 bgirardot: Ya, I was thinking that was just a page off of the person's profile page
15:41:54 bgirardot: that only they saw, it is for their benefit really
15:43:09 clairedelune: Can we summarize the changes needed on TM on our meeting document? https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-September-29-2014-2rYL7LZIJDN
15:44:51 sanderd17: (Could I also ask that the desctiption of the HOT task should be as specific as possible? Like what's supposed to be mapped, which changeset comment, ...? It's important to be clear IMO.)
15:45:28 sanderd17: I've ran into some tasks where the explanation said to use one sort of comment, and a bit further another sort.
15:45:48 sanderd17: Or for this task: http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/657 I don't know even what to map.
15:46:48 bgirardot: Ya, those instructions are little thin :)
15:47:22 sanderd17: Some are thin, others have too much info that make it hard to find what to map.
15:47:57 bgirardot: clairedelune: Did you see the collection of things from our meetings/docs that affect the TM2 list I made? https://hackpad.com/Tasking-Manger-Related-Ideas-Va7mi3dBmf4
15:48:41 bgirardot: It wasn't intended to be complete, just collect them in one place.
15:48:58 sanderd17: Of even the first task in the list: http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/660
15:49:28 sanderd17: Just try to read it. Sections start with "Compare Bing and Mapbox", and end with "But Bing is better in this area" (So why compare?)
15:49:38 sanderd17: It has twice the same text
15:49:42 clairedelune: Hi indeed, instructions are missing for #657, that shouldn't be possible in an ideal world, don't know how validation can take place
15:50:17 clairedelune: we could ask for some fields to be mandatory
15:50:30 sanderd17: At one point it tells you "Please map the buildings", at another point it tells the same, but a bit more convoluted, and in a third line, it tells you to map the paths too.
15:50:42 bgirardot: the process of creating projects for the TM is under some development to try and make it more of a form to fill out to help project creators, who come from varied backgrounds, get it all correct.
15:51:13 bgirardot: So some of the fields are new and people are not sure where the text goes or how it is used to create the project we see in the TM
15:51:33 bgirardot: That is definately a training/documentation issue
15:51:39 clairedelune: yes you are right pgirardot but we can still mention it
15:52:46 bgirardot: Oh for sure, just saying some of it is new and we and the activations wg are still catching up to help get them more uniform
15:53:08 clairedelune: and it is fine that it is so easy to publish a task but some kind of quality assessment could be set up, so the project manager decides if he still publishes it the way it is or improve it first.
15:53:20 Jorieke: Thanks for doc bgirardot didn't saw it
15:53:21 bgirardot: Or even an activation support person who can go through and help regularize the project texts we get from the activation leads
15:53:29 sanderd17: Anyway, the TM isn't the most important, the data is. But it would certainly help to let users feel more secure.
15:55:19 * bgirardot nods agreeably.
15:55:32 bgirardot: For sure
15:57:35 emirhartato: @clairedelune maybe it's time to make the documentation how the project manager should put information on the task that they're going to make
15:57:53 emirhartato: like a standard
15:58:38 Tallguy: checklist with radio buttons - they don't type anything, just select the subjects they want mapped
15:58:54 clairedelune: Yes emirhatarto, so far some of the fields already display an example of what should be written in but it's not the case yet for all
15:59:20 clairedelune: And I agree with Tallguy that it would be faster with ceck bowes
15:59:44 Tallguy: should help with the translations as well
15:59:45 clairedelune: + when there are a lot of tasks under a same activation, this involves a lot of copy/pasting
15:59:56 sanderd17: Tallguy, not sure if checkboxes are versatile enough
16:00:13 sanderd17: There might be some specific tasks (like those water tasks)
16:00:40 Tallguy: Free text entry if needed at the end - there will always be an exception!
16:00:49 clairedelune: and it could be easier to select defined text for the task, + there could still be a "other: to be described field"
16:00:59 clairedelune: exactly
16:01:27 emirhartato: +1
16:01:39 clairedelune: does anyone have a link towards what the activation WG already proposed?
16:03:04 clairedelune: how much more do you want to discuss Tasking Manager, we are already one hour into it.
16:03:44 clairedelune: maybe we can leave this part open till the next meeting, for comments before adding it to github?
16:04:04 emirhartato: +1 for me :)
16:04:11 clairedelune: or do you want that we add already messaging aspects now
16:04:57 Tallguy: I think the 'feedback page' has reached conclusion & could go to github for triage
16:05:18 clairedelune: ok great, I think so too.
16:05:24 bgirardot: I agree, I think the example goes a long way to describing it
16:07:37 clairedelune: if we can continue, I wqnted to mention that if you think about some useful needed documentation tasks in HOT, they could be added to the intership ideas page, you can do it individually, no need of the group agreement. Although you can also discuss it with others if you want. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/OPM_Project_Ideas
16:08:23 Jorieke: sorry guys need to go, have to catch a train
16:08:29 Jorieke: see you next!
16:09:10 clairedelune: Other ideas to be discussed/addressed now? when should we plan next meeting? in a week or 2 weeks time?
16:09:20 clairedelune: Bye Jorieke
16:09:52 Tallguy: For me, one week was too quick - haven't had the chance to do very much or prepare properly (may just be the week!)
16:11:19 clairedelune: +1, we would have a more constructive agenda with 2 weeks interval I think
16:12:37 emirhartato: one and a half week... maybe... hehehe
16:13:11 clairedelune: hahaha if you want to lose me, that would be most appropriate emirhatarto ;-)
16:14:16 clairedelune: bgirardot, sanderd17, anyone else?
16:14:30 emirhartato: count me in
16:14:42 bgirardot: That is good for me
16:14:55 bgirardot: Whatever works best for you.
16:14:56 sanderd17: I'm available on variable times, don't know if I'll be present next week
16:15:18 clairedelune: Ok, so next meeting will be for October 13
16:15:27 clairedelune: thank you all
16:15:55 clairedelune: Tallguy, do you want to document the github issue, or should I do it?
16:16:27 Tallguy: I can do it I think - would welcome you checking it later though- bit of a github novice
16:17:15 clairedelune: ok, I haven't got that much of experience with github neither, but I can check it later anyway
16:17:40 clairedelune: Anyone still has another point to be addressed/discussed today?
16:17:49 clairedelune: or shall we close the meeting?
16:18:17 Tallguy: Did you get the chance to try smaller TM squares?
16:18:20 emirhartato: i still have some time but I don't know with others
16:19:11 clairedelune: yes I did Tallguy, I'm about to publish 2 tasks now, but there's one I need to translate from French to English first
16:19:36 clairedelune: I will send you the links as soon as it's done if you want.
16:19:42 Tallguy: OK, sounds good thanks
16:20:10 clairedelune: Tallguy, do you have the rights to see unpublished jobs yet?
16:20:38 Tallguy: I don't know - there was discussion but I don't know if anything has happened yet
16:20:55 clairedelune: Ok, I will publish it with Low priority first.
16:26:35 bgirardot: brb
16:29:00 Tallguy: clairedelune - are we done - could do with a coffee break ;)
16:30:06 emirhartato: I'm having a tea. Do you guys want some? ;)
16:31:10 Tallguy: caffeine in all its forms is good
16:38:00 clairedelune: Sure! Thank you emirhatarto for the tea and all for attending. All the best for the rest of your day.
16:39:44 Tallguy: Thank you