Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/8 December 2014

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Link to Hackpad entry for meeting

16:03 clairedelune: Hello!
16:03 clairedelune: Let's start our Training WG meeting!
16:03 * BlakeGirardot nods agreeably.
16:03 clairedelune: Today's agenda is here: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-December-8-2014-4pz41WgXAST
16:06 BlakeGirardot: (reading agenda and linked documents"
16:06 clairedelune: You might have seen my last email, mentionning a new google group for our WG. There had been a few requests for a separate mailing list within the group. I hope that one could fill the gap
16:07 BlakeGirardot: I think it will, the google groups are pretty good fusion of email and forums.
16:07 clairedelune: Please let me know if you would like any change in its configuration, or if you think that list will be useless or whatever...
16:07 jaakkoh: Hi all. I'm here just lurking too. Good morning, afternoon, what-ever-it-is-for-you-anyways!
16:08 clairedelune: At the moment, anyone can subscribe or view discussions, but only members of the group can post. We might need additionnal moderators later maybe but not yet.
16:08 clairedelune: Hi Jaakko
16:08 Tallguy: I think a central list could be good, but we need to point the other email addresses to it
16:08 jaakkoh: I think the Google Group is a good simple/immediate step to take especially as that can be done with the HOT Google Apps setup *
16:08 jaakkoh: (and so with @hotosm.org address)
16:10 clairedelune: Tallguy, to which other email addresses are you thinking? This new one is training@hotosm.org
16:10 Tallguy: learnosm@hotosm.org is linked for the 'feedback' on learnOSM - I think it could be changed though
16:11 clairedelune: Does anyone know who gets emails directed to learnosm@?
16:11 Tallguy: I tested it by sending one several months ago & eventually got a reply from - I think it was Kate? - I can check
16:12 clairedelune: They could either be redirected to the LearnOSM coord group, or to this training WG list?
16:12 clairedelune: ok, thanks
16:13 clairedelune: IMO one of the first purposes of this group is to be able to share informations within the group between meetings without overloading HOT lists
16:14 * BlakeGirardot nods agreeably.
16:14 Tallguy: I agree
16:15 althio: I think too it will be useful
16:15 clairedelune: So... let's try it, at least it's there ;-)
16:15 russdeffner: This has been touched on in the Communication WG, that some folks feel the main HOT mailing list is just too much to keep up with
16:15 clairedelune: Next: LearnOSM? Tallguy?
16:15 russdeffner: so this google group idea is great
16:15 clairedelune: Thanks Russ
16:15 Tallguy: on the google group still - is learnosm-coord@openstreetmap.org only used for translation or could we redirect if we wanted?
16:16 Tallguy: & where would you like the emails that go (not very often) to learnosm@hotosm?
16:16 osmbot-test: Tallguy: Error: "where" is not a valid command.
16:18 BlakeGirardot: So far I think learnosm has been for translation and anything else related to creating/adjusting learnosm material
16:19 BlakeGirardot: I think it would be ok either way to fold it into the google group or keep it seperate and maybe subscribe the google group to the learn osm coord list.
16:19 Tallguy: sorry, not sure if my last comment went through - I can get the learnosm@hotosm emails sent to a different address - shall I use learnosm-coord@openstreetmap.org instead?
16:19 russdeffner: I think Claire's having connectivity trouble, so you may want to hang on a moment
16:20 BlakeGirardot: sorry I wasn't clear either, I am talking about the learnosm-coord list, not the eamil learnosm@hotosm.
16:20 clairedelune: (sorry, kicked out by connection)
16:20 Tallguy: waiting til clairedelune up to speed again
16:21 clairedelune: if not answered yet: not LEarnOSM coord is not only for translations, so Yes I thing redirection could happen there
16:22 Tallguy: ok- will submit a pull request on learnosm through git
16:22 clairedelune: Anything else about groups and addresses?
16:23 russdeffner: In my opinion we should stick with the @hotosm.org emails so we have the admin, @openstreetmap.org I would guess is administered by OSMF?
16:23 Tallguy: I'm done - I think the group you have setup is good, thanks
16:23 clairedelune: Thanks, we'll see. And yes, OSM.org are managed by OSMF
16:24 clairedelune: Back to point 2: LearnOSM updates?
16:24 clairedelune: Tallguy have edited the workflow I think
16:27 Tallguy: sorry, clicked on wrong button - yes, workflow updated, but...
16:27 Tallguy: I want to contact https://github.com/AmericanRedCross/Guides/blob/master/TranslationWorkflow_LearnOSM/translatorWorkflow.md & suggest amendment and use that link as well still
16:28 BlakeGirardot: Ok, I am not uderstanding the workflow as edited.
16:28 BlakeGirardot: from here: https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/blob/gh-pages/CONTRIBUTING.md
16:28 BlakeGirardot: There are some details I don't get, but the biggest thing is what am I installing and why?
16:29 BlakeGirardot: Is that part of the "previous, but still an option workflow" to install something?
16:29 Tallguy: That's what I need to work on - IRC is going to make this difficult - could we use the forum later?
16:29 BlakeGirardot: Yes, no problem.
16:30 Tallguy: I'm not happy with what I have produced - there is a simple method of editing that does not require any installations, but it gets confusing as the old workflow still needs to be present as well
16:30 clairedelune: Ok, yes, it's still a bit confusing but am confident you/we'll find a way
16:31 Tallguy: I'm glad of the confirmation - I wasn't happy I had explained it very well either - will work on it.
16:32 Tallguy: Once we are happy with process - use forum to discuss & I can then send an email to hot general email publicising it - I've held off as wasn't satisfied
16:32 clairedelune: is the translator supposed to open an issue himself? or done by "githubber" from the initial request?
16:33 Tallguy: translator can open issue - I kept it vague in case they made contact by email. They will need to open a github account anyway
16:34 clairedelune: yes, but I think clear task sharing can help: I guess it will be up to the translator to check that the chapter is upto date? that kind of things
16:35 Tallguy: Also timescale - if we use https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm then I submit pull requests that are only visible when 'owner' merges them
16:35 clairedelune: owner is Jeff only, right? I think he'd be happy to share this responsability
16:35 Tallguy: I'm considering using my github at https://github.com/Nick-Tallguy but then we run into the same problem when I am not available for a week or two
16:36 Tallguy: I only know of Jeff - I would be happy to take on part of it - but the way it works is that I end up getting full access rights - still learning!
16:36 clairedelune: can't we have a group of owners?
16:36 Tallguy: A group of owners would be very good
16:38 BlakeGirardot: tallguy: I am not suggesting we do this, but this is an interesting read about how a book used github for translations: https://www.discovermeteor.com/blog/community-translations-with-github-middleman-codeship-heroku/
16:38 clairedelune: I think that once the workflow is clearer for all, we could find some additionnal people to take care of some of the tasks
16:38 clairedelune: BlakeGirardot, link not working here, will try again later
16:39 BlakeGirardot: I'd like to understand their proces a bit more with submodules and repos for each language to see if that makes any sense for us. Ya, it didn't load for me at first either clairedelune :(
16:40 Tallguy: I've been in touch with a couple of people who will be doing some translation - they have suggested transiflex but I think there was earlier discussion that discounted that
16:41 clairedelune: Yes, we discussed quite a lot about using Transifex but it appeared it was not the best option for that kind of material (book like)
16:41 BlakeGirardot: The only transifex disussion I have seen is that it _might_ present things out of context, but I do not know if anyone really tested to see if that was a requirement of the transifex system or just an artifact of how it was being used by the person who made the comment.
16:41 russdeffner: hmm, regarding the link - if you delete the S in https, it works
16:42 BlakeGirardot: We didn't know if transifex could handle longer passages well or it it was short string oriented like short strings in software "about" "contact" etc.
16:43 clairedelune: I and many people use transifex for translating websites and other tools and it works great! but it is not that convenient for longer texts/paragraphs
16:44 clairedelune: Emir had used it for some OSM/inasafe material and that had been hard
16:44 Tallguy: I like the idea of using someone who maps - don't want highway=residential translated, for instance
16:44 clairedelune: does anyone wants to reopen that discussion? could find the links if needed, but not sure if taht's necessary
16:44 BlakeGirardot: Ok, cool so you do know it is not great for long texts. Perfect.
16:45 BlakeGirardot: I don't want to reopen it, I had just missed the actual experience with transifex, but I see you and Emir have it
16:47 clairedelune: ok, no problem, HOT uses it for various things (TM maybe, I forgot). Transifex might also get better in future but I think it's fine to improve github workflows and use those at the moment.
16:47 sanderd17: I know a text of 370 words (which is quite long for a paragraph), and Transifex does get a bit annoying for that
16:48 Tallguy: At the moment only Jeff & I seem to be working on learnOSM - we need more people to read the sections & suggest changes - use issues on github, and eventually get more involved - 2 of us is not a good number
16:48 BlakeGirardot: I am in, I have been travelling for the past 4 weeks and have had limited ability to do much
16:49 sanderd17: It's a bit annoying I can't share links when you aren't part of the project
16:49 clairedelune: Tallguy, I'll try to join you in January but no availability this December unfortunately
16:49 sanderd17: (and to just become part of the project to see some string is weird)
16:49 Tallguy: BlakeGirardot & clairedelune, thanks for that
16:49 BlakeGirardot: I found that a bit weird too sanderd17
16:51 althio: I am still new to all this and do not grasp at once what is required but I will go on and try to understand and later help
16:52 clairedelune: Thank you althio, many of us are kinf of new too
16:52 Tallguy: althio - thanks - you could be ideal - we need to know if we have described something clearly - if not we need to alter it
16:52 BlakeGirardot: It helps a lot to have new eyes on things
16:53 althio: First mapping, JOSM, than TM2. No time yet for learnosm ;)
16:54 BlakeGirardot: :)
16:54 clairedelune: Anything else still about LearnOSM for today?
16:54 Tallguy: I've added a new section - link is on hackpad - have not 'shouted about it' as still not very advanced - constantly working on it at the moment
16:55 Tallguy: http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/
16:56 Tallguy: I'm happy to leave that - needs a lot more work before I get too much feedback - do you want to move onto the next agenda item?
16:56 clairedelune: I love it Tallguy, Blake's welcome mail could maybe redirect towards it too
16:56 russdeffner: Looking great Tallguy!
16:56 satoshi: wow! fantastic!
16:57 clairedelune: or there could be a link within tasking manager
16:57 BlakeGirardot: really nice
16:58 satoshi: (I feel "notice feature" to keep my translation updated... )
16:58 clairedelune: (once you are a bit more satisfied of it, but I know you've been editing it for a long time already!)
16:59 clairedelune: Tallguy, are there specific sections of it you would like to be reviewed? or are you looking for comments before sharing widely?
16:59 Tallguy: I would like to cover all the sections covered in the validators wiki, then do a section on validating, but ...
17:00 BlakeGirardot: Couple of things: the numbers and arrows should be a hot training wg endorsed style if it is not already :)
17:00 Tallguy: If you think it is currently worth advertising, then I suggest we send an email to HOT general email list
17:00 clairedelune: ;-)
17:00 BlakeGirardot: And it is great like it is, could go live immediately, no changes, but if the pictures could have a larger option that might help people
17:01 Tallguy: The wiki on github states maximum of 520px longest edge on images - that is a real drawback
17:02 BlakeGirardot: interesting
17:02 Tallguy: I don't know if that 520px is a self imposed limit to make sure the total files don't exceed the site limit (free hosting I believe)
17:02 clairedelune: Would be great to change that
17:02 Tallguy: I agree, I find the limitation frustrating
17:03 clairedelune: could you open an issue about it?
17:03 Tallguy: I can open an issue, or send an email to Jeff - seems he is the one doing all the work
17:04 clairedelune: Yep, thanks!
17:04 clairedelune: Then, sending an email on the hot list about it?
17:04 Tallguy: I can do the email to the hot list if you like
17:05 Tallguy: As a group, do we think it is time for a revamp of the learnOSM site - not the content, just the 'home' page & style
17:05 clairedelune: I think too that it's good to go. But it's up to you to decide when would be best...
17:06 BlakeGirardot: I feel the navigation on the learnosm site needs some improvement. I agree the content is great
17:07 clairedelune: That could be interesting, but I don't feel like current version lasted long, but could be improved certainly
17:07 Tallguy: I'll put something together for the forum about the site navigation etc
17:07 clairedelune: Great!
17:07 BlakeGirardot: One other thing you are probably aware of regarding the tasking manager
17:07 BlakeGirardot: It is going to change a little bit in layout and functionality
17:07 BlakeGirardot: for mappers
17:08 BlakeGirardot: so we might hold off on screen shots or step by steps for it
17:08 clairedelune: Yes, our interns started working!
17:08 BlakeGirardot: Are there more than one?
17:08 Tallguy: I guessed that - will update learnosm section http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/tasking-manager/ as soon as I can after go live
17:09 clairedelune: There are 2, but one is more specificly for the TM
17:09 BlakeGirardot: That is what I thought, I can't find the introduction email from the lady who is doing the documentation
17:09 BlakeGirardot: do you know her name?
17:09 Tallguy: Is it visible on the testing version?
17:10 clairedelune: Jessica
17:10 clairedelune: on the LearnOSM list I think she sent introduction
17:10 BlakeGirardot: tallguy, I don't think there is anything in place to do github -> dev tm -> live tm for people to see changes before they go live on the tm
17:10 BlakeGirardot: Perfect, thank you clairedelune
17:11 clairedelune: If that's OK for you.... Point 3: Learning/Teaching OSM through a MOOC.
17:11 * BlakeGirardot nods agreeably.
17:11 Tallguy: Good thanks
17:11 clairedelune: Drazen have set up a Moodle instance which needs to be tuned and then material will need to be uploaded.
17:12 clairedelune: Laura C (jeeltcraft) had showed some interest about this so I sent her an email about the update but didn't get news about here recently
17:12 clairedelune: (sorry for the many typos today)
17:13 clairedelune: If some people would be interested, I think we should do a real brainstorming about it
17:13 Tallguy: what format do the uploads go in?
17:14 CGI593: Is it possible to talk about HOT task 777 Cameroon?
17:14 clairedelune: Usually, training material is mainly videos on MOOCs, but there can also be slides and subtitles for instance
17:14 BlakeGirardot: cgi593 it is
17:14 BlakeGirardot: Whats on your mind cgi593
17:15 BlakeGirardot: clairdelune: Interesting.
17:15 CGI593: I was thinking about feedback on what we are doing to improve and see if we are providing what the client would like
17:15 russdeffner: Claire, I would be interested in brainstorming, I think a MOOC is a good idea, but a bit longer term goal/project
17:15 BlakeGirardot: Thats no problem cgi593, the project manager is probably also reviewing the mapping to see how it goes, but do you have any specific task squares in mind for someone to look at?
17:15 CGI593: and I must work out how to display JohnWhelan rather than cgi1593
17:16 clairedelune: Yes, I think so russdeffner
17:16 BlakeGirardot: I think it is /nick JonaWhelan
17:16 * BlakeGirardot is now known as blakethetest
17:16 blakethetest: ya, that works
17:16 * CGI593 is now known as JohnWhelan
17:16 * blakethetest is now known as BlakeGirardot
17:16 BlakeGirardot: I would like to see the admin interface of the software clairedelune
17:17 JohnWhelan: I think my concern is the level of detail some images are very good and you can see maybe two huts together but it takes a lot of time to go over the entire area at that detail. Waht is the service level looked for?
17:18 clairedelune: I've got the admin credentials but I don't think I should share them with the world ;) If you get connected to the platform (through google identification for instance) I think I can give you additionnal rights
17:19 BlakeGirardot: JohnWhelan: Ya, those task squres are pretty big.
17:19 BlakeGirardot: I am looking at them now.
17:19 BlakeGirardot: clairedelune: will do right now
17:20 BlakeGirardot: clairedelune: I don't see a url for the mooc?
17:20 clairedelune: http://moodle.dev.hotosm.org/
17:20 BlakeGirardot: bah, last meetings notes, I see it
17:20 BlakeGirardot: sorry
17:21 BlakeGirardot: helps to be on the correct week :)
17:21 clairedelune: ;) As time is flying I would suggest we continue the MOOC subject on the forum and get to the last point before half past, if that's ok?
17:22 russdeffner: ok with me
17:22 althio: JohnWhelan: No buildings required. Only a polygon for villages/residential areas (Polygons tagged landuse=residential)
17:22 althio: Question is:
17:22 althio: how many huts to tag a villages/residential areas (isn't it?)
17:23 JohnWhelan: Got it in one.
17:23 clairedelune: althio: one hut is enough to tag a residential area IMO
17:23 Tallguy: Personally, if only a couple of buildings I trace the outlines of them and tag building=yes
17:23 BlakeGirardot: Which is me and the welcome letter, which I have not done a darn thing with since the last meeting.
17:24 Tallguy: I leave the landuse tag for larger settlements where I think it is more likely to be residential rather than farming
17:24 BlakeGirardot: I see where I can shorten it up a bit more, but where I got lost was what changes you think might be needed if we plan on sending 2 follow ups or are the follow ups just "hi, checking in, any questions?" type follow ups.
17:25 BlakeGirardot: JohnWhelan: �I do what tallguy does, map 4 or fewer buildings and outline 5 or more buildings. I think if you are going to draw a residential area around 1 building, you might as well outline the actual building.
17:25 clairedelune: BlakeGirardot, I read your message again earlier today and didn't find it that long anymore ;) Last time we mentionned it could be better to cut it into 2 or 3 parts to make them subject/aspect oriented.
17:26 BlakeGirardot: Ok, cool
17:26 clairedelune: For instance: started mapping? needs help/support? we have different communication channels... and then presenting them
17:26 BlakeGirardot: I'd reformat it a bit then per some of the suggestions and then still send a follow up "any questions" email if we could.
17:27 BlakeGirardot: I see.
17:27 JohnWhelan: It's more a question of what is the client expecting. Do they want a fairly rapid over view map that shows the main roads or are they prepared to wait a year until all the footpaths and huts are done.
17:27 clairedelune: I should check last meeting notes for the suggestions which had been made...
17:28 clairedelune: Ok, will wait for follow-up from your side then. Thanks!
17:28 Tallguy: JohnWhelan - judgement call. If you could drive a 4x4 to get to a dwelling, then trace it. Small path leading nowhere = maybenot
17:28 russdeffner: I'd like to see the 'final' version of the welcome note(s), but think whay you have is a great start, no specific suggestions
17:28 althio: JohnWhelan:I can't answer sorry, when it is unclear each mapper must decide alone..., clairedelune tell you 1 hut, Tallguy 4-6 but map individual buildings. You should try to message the owner for clarification: http://www.openstreetmap.org/message/new/Mark_Cupitt
17:28 clairedelune: Was there anything else to be discussed today during our Training WG meeting?
17:29 althio: Draft proposed Welcome Letter:
17:29 althio: maybe for the final version: some pictures/screenshots?
17:29 althio: As a example of what I like: the email letters from 'The Hackpad Team' when you sign up.
17:30 althio: Short sentences almost like catchphrase/hook, few friendly explanations and links for further digging.
17:30 BlakeGirardot: Yes, I agree with althio, I would ask on the hot mailing list so Mark_Cupitt sees it.
17:32 clairedelune: In the TM there's something additionnal compared to all those tools, like hackpad (because people really contribute with their time for supporting data needs and should be thanked for this), but I agree with althio comments on the style.
17:33 clairedelune: (half past, am declaring meeting over for today if no objection) Next meeting => December 22nd! Thank you all for your participation!
17:33 BlakeGirardot: I am sorry, that was for JohnWhelan: I would ask on the hot email list so Mark sees it.
17:34 BlakeGirardot: Thank you very much clairedelune. I will follow up on the new group mailing list for the items we need to work on until next meeting.
17:34 russdeffner: Welcome, thanks, have a great day everyone!
17:34 althio: Thanks everyone
17:35 Tallguy: Thanks & bye