Humanitarian OSM Team/Working groups/Technical/meeting 2016-02-08

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Full minutes/report at: http://dogodigi.net/logs/hot/2016/hot.2016-02-08-15.02.html

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15:02:29 <dodobas> #startmeeting TWG 02.2016
15:02:29 <hot_meetbot`> Meeting started Mon Feb  8 15:02:29 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dodobas. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:29 <hot_meetbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:02:29 <hot_meetbot`> The meeting name has been set to 'twg_02_2016'
15:02:47 <dodobas> hello everyone :)
15:03:31 <dodobas> does anyone want to add something to the agenda https://hackpad.com/TWG-Meeting-02.2016-i0AOiTEopEZ
15:03:34 <dodobas> ?
15:04:19 <russdeffner> now you can do #commands
15:04:30 <dodobas> #commands
15:04:30 <hot_meetbot`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #reject #rejected #restrictlogs #save #showvote #startmeeting #startvote #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote
15:05:01 <dodobas> #topic Sysadmin report
15:05:11 <dodobas> so, i guess i should start
15:05:44 <dodobas> we did not have a TWG meeting for a long time
15:06:34 * martind added a point "need more TM maintainers to review pull requests?"
15:06:42 <dodobas> in general there were no oustanding issues with the server
15:07:12 <russdeffner> seems things are running great, thanks sysadmin
15:07:42 <dodobas> we added new rewritten Export tool... and as part of that we actually have an OverpassAPI hosted on our server
15:08:01 <dodobas> here is an interesting fact
15:08:04 <dodobas> http://graphs.dev.hotosm.org/dashboard/#amelia
15:08:42 <dodobas> notice that the load is going up'n'down almost regulary...
15:09:18 <BlakeGirardot> on which "machine" ?
15:09:19 <pgiraud> it looks cyclic
15:09:21 <BlakeGirardot> the TM machine?
15:09:37 <dodobas> large part of that is contributed by the Overpass which applies OSM changesets ... every minute
15:11:02 <dodobas> so ... as the server is UTC timezone.... I can say that Americans and Asians are lazy bastards... as most of the work on the OSM is done by the European contributors :)
15:11:52 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: amelia (our main production mashine)
15:11:53 <russdeffner> hey now :)
15:12:08 <pgiraud> or that European are contributing while they are supposed to be at work
15:12:11 <russdeffner> just because I'm not mapping ;)
15:12:38 <pgiraud> and Americans contribute all night long
15:12:59 <BlakeGirardot> What runs on amelia? TM, Export, OSM website?
15:13:25 <dodobas> AFAICT, export tool is not causing any issues
15:13:52 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: yes, and mumble, training center, ...
15:14:08 <BlakeGirardot> i see. all as different containers?
15:14:15 <dodobas> yes
15:14:36 <BlakeGirardot> is amelia a physical machine or virtual ?
15:14:46 <dodobas> phy...
15:14:49 <dodobas> so, OpenAerialMap ... that's hosted on Amazon AWS
15:15:16 <dodobas> cristiano: can you talk about that ?
15:15:32 <cristiano> give a few more minutes
15:15:37 <cristiano> *me
15:15:57 <dodobas> ok...
15:17:10 <dodobas> that's all I have, if you don't have any questions ?
15:17:10 <russdeffner> just so I am clear - moodle is on Amelia correct?
15:17:15 <dodobas> russdeffner: yes
15:17:44 <russdeffner> ok, thanks - can say it seems to be running fine, have 'trickle' of folks taking the training
15:18:01 <russdeffner> will continue working with AWG on improvements
15:18:02 <BlakeGirardot> how hard is moodle to maintain?
15:18:16 <BlakeGirardot> i see a fair number of update notices come through
15:18:20 <BlakeGirardot> are they easy to apply?
15:19:20 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: well, they usually are, but we have some custom template changes, that provide G+ login (social login)
15:19:35 <BlakeGirardot> ya that is interesting
15:19:42 <BlakeGirardot> we have had requests to really edit up the templates
15:19:49 <BlakeGirardot> and I don't want to complicate things too much
15:19:55 <dodobas> so I need to make sure we don't just overwrite the changes
15:20:02 <BlakeGirardot> we will be trying to make changes as agnostically as possible
15:20:16 <BlakeGirardot> to fit in the moodle template system so updates are not complicated.
15:20:31 <russdeffner> oh, good points - need to think about maintainence if we're gonna do 'major' face-lift as some requested
15:21:11 <dodobas> i guess that one solutions could be to create our 'own' template...
15:21:40 <dodobas> but, yes, that would require some maintainance ...
15:22:15 <dodobas> probably less between minor version updates ...
15:22:20 <dodobas> or none at all
15:23:20 <dodobas> pgiraud: would you like to talk about TM ?
15:23:25 <pgiraud> OK
15:23:38 <dodobas> #topic Tasking manager
15:23:54 <pgiraud> it's been a while since we didn't release a version of the tasking manager
15:24:04 <pgiraud> the last one was in June if I remember well
15:24:27 <pgiraud> I wanted to do a release before the end of the last year
15:24:29 <pgiraud> but failed
15:24:35 <pgiraud> now we're ready
15:24:36 <BlakeGirardot> That was my fault as I recall :)
15:25:18 <BlakeGirardot> Sorry about that, I still don't understand the transifex stuff and I think I complicated things with one of my PRs
15:25:19 <pgiraud> last week, I merged some pull requests
15:25:26 <pgiraud> and udpate the translations
15:25:47 <pgiraud> the fact a release is ready to be put in production
15:25:48 <pgiraud> https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/releases/tag/2.12.0
15:26:03 <pgiraud> but first it need to be set up on the dev instance
15:26:16 <pgiraud> to make sure that it doesn't break
15:26:29 <pgiraud> dodobas, the ball is on your hands
15:26:31 <dodobas> yeah... that's on my todo list :)
15:26:35 <pgiraud> great
15:27:03 <BlakeGirardot> Can we do anything to fix the https problems, those are significant
15:27:38 <pgiraud> I quickly read your summary on the issues with JOSM
15:27:58 <pgiraud> I haven't taken time to think about it
15:28:11 <BlakeGirardot> on httpS ?
15:28:34 <pgiraud> oh sorry
15:28:50 <dodobas> is that something we can do? AFAIK, user needs to enable https for remote control
15:29:01 <BlakeGirardot> 2 things
15:29:01 <pgiraud> not only
15:29:10 <BlakeGirardot> 1 no background map in TM when on httpS
15:29:18 <pgiraud> the certificate may need to be accepted manually by the user
15:29:24 <pgiraud> when using Chrome for example
15:29:26 <BlakeGirardot> 2 the hand off ot josm, which is more than just enabling it in josm
15:29:41 <BlakeGirardot> I would like to get off https until we can actually fix these issues.
15:29:43 <pgiraud> BlakeGirardot, background maps should be OK after the release
15:29:50 <BlakeGirardot> oh that would be good
15:30:36 <dodobas> so, JOSM, remote control ?
15:30:51 <pgiraud> https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/735
15:31:00 <BlakeGirardot> I don't know, it just does not seem to work, regardless of settings in josm.
15:31:09 <BlakeGirardot> I have never seen a warning about a cert or anything.
15:31:20 <BlakeGirardot> and I think some one linked to a josm ticket about it as well.
15:32:14 <pgiraud> there may be a workaround to make sure that the user see that he/she has to accept the certificate
15:32:22 <pgiraud> for now it's completely hidden
15:32:31 <dodobas> so, it's hard to do anything, other than educate the users
15:32:39 <BlakeGirardot> or stop using https
15:32:40 <pgiraud> this is a solution
15:32:52 <pgiraud> educating users should work
15:33:10 <BlakeGirardot> i love https everywhere too, but if it interferes with our users....
15:33:19 <dodobas> pgiraud: ok, but, imagine trying to apply the solution on a mapathon  :)
15:33:38 <pgiraud> "still failing opening JOSM? open this page and accept the certificate"
15:34:05 <BlakeGirardot> what about the people we don't get to speak with about it ?
15:34:16 <BlakeGirardot> it is almost easier at a mapathon, vs. people it just silently fails for
15:34:25 <BlakeGirardot> again, I am not clear on the need for https for the TM
15:34:41 <pgiraud> I mean the Tasking Manager could help the users that are still failing opening JOSM from the tasking manager in HTTPS
15:34:59 <skorasaurus2> (sorry, late, but now here).
15:35:11 <BlakeGirardot> Can some one just tell me why we need https for the TM?
15:35:40 <Tyler_Radford> I tend to agree on removing https for TM until issues resolved
15:36:16 <Tyler_Radford> Want to avoid alienating/frustrating our community if we can help it
15:37:56 <dodobas> we could redirect from https -> http
15:38:18 <pgiraud> I can't tell why we https for the TM
15:38:25 <pgiraud> and I never asked for that
15:38:39 <pgiraud> however, no one as really tried to address the issue
15:38:51 <dodobas> pgiraud: all i remember is ' it would be nice to have' :)
15:38:59 <BlakeGirardot> That is my preference, we can keep it on dev to work on solving the issue, but for the public users, I just don't anything that makes it more confusing for them.
15:39:45 <BlakeGirardot> We already have a lot of moving parts for users, the https just does not have the cost v. benefit ratio to make it worth it I do not think.
15:40:02 <Tyler_Radford> @dodobas @pgiraud I agree. it was a "nice to have". We simply decided to try to get all our public facing services switched over to https when we received the discounted certificate
15:41:19 <skorasaurus2> as far as I knew, the ball was in OSM-FR's court, because they host the tiles.
15:41:20 <dodobas> so do we make sure noone tries to connect over https ?
15:41:25 <pgiraud> I can still work on this issue, but I can't promise when I'll be able to
15:42:09 <pgiraud> skorasaurus2, the background tiles should be no problem when the new version is installed
15:42:22 <dodobas> skorasaurus2: https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/735
15:42:51 <pgiraud> and https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/pull/705
15:43:50 <skorasaurus2> ah, thanks.
15:44:10 <martind> is now a good time to discuss adding more TM maintainers? (the next/previous point on the agenda)
15:44:52 <martind> I can summarise
15:45:00 <dodobas> martind: can we do it on the next topic ?
15:45:04 <martind> sure!
15:45:34 <pgiraud> what's the decision about https?
15:46:17 <BlakeG_m> if it is easy to revert to only http lets do that
15:46:23 <dodobas> our options...
15:46:29 <dodobas> 1. force http
15:46:38 <dodobas> 2. educate users
15:46:48 <dodobas> anything else
15:47:56 <pgiraud> 1. should this be done client side (javascript)? or by the server (nginx)?
15:47:59 <BlakeG_m> I vote 1
15:48:19 <dodobas> 1. server, the app sohuld stay protocol agnostic
15:48:23 <dodobas> *should
15:48:47 <pgiraud> +1 for solution 1
15:49:10 <Tyler_Radford> Option 1, while we take @pgiraud generous offer to help research the issue, time permitting
15:49:37 <pgiraud> I'll do my best
15:50:05 <dodobas> ok... I'll add that to my task list
15:50:06 <BlakeG_m> we have higher priorities :)
15:50:44 <pgiraud> should I lower down priority on the issue #735?
15:51:20 <BlakeG_m> ya if we are going to force http
15:52:17 <pgiraud> so can we move on next topic?
15:52:28 <dodobas> ok ... https://github.com/AmericanRedCross/tasking-manager-stats/issues/1
15:53:24 <dodobas> in a nutshell, DevelopmentSeed are doing a project with AmericanRedCross, and they need user stats
15:54:15 <cristiano> Interesting, this would be relevant to the work we're starting on the OSM Data Analysis Tool
15:54:48 <dodobas> so, they have been given a slimed down version, to test the impact of the 'get all user stats' on the system
15:54:49 <martind> is this the badge project?
15:54:53 <cristiano> One of the ideas there is to create visualizations and reports of features that have been validated within a certain AOI
15:55:15 <dodobas> martind: something with gamification... maybe Tyler_Radford has more info
15:55:16 <martind> cristiano: I think this is more visitor stats, the QA project is more about map data
15:55:25 <martind> dodobas: yes that's the badge project
15:55:31 <martind> badges for HOT contributions
15:55:45 <cristiano> visitors = contributors?
15:55:57 <dodobas> anyway... we are waiting for them to create a pull request...
15:56:02 <mkl> hi TWG
15:56:20 <dodobas> or at least, that's what was my intention
15:56:42 <dodobas> hi mkl
15:56:53 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, I think they need to make some PRs for additions they need :)
15:57:28 <martind> cristiano: ah now I see, yes it may intersect in some ways. may be worth looking at their pull request once it comes in
15:57:29 <cristiano> so it would sit inside the TM itself?
15:57:42 <dodobas> the other option would be to run it as a separate service... but we do need to extend te TM API ...
15:57:45 <martind> I expect they are looking for a way to get some contributor data out
15:57:58 <martind> oresumably with an API call
15:58:00 <cristiano> it could intersect by providing stats on validation (by user experience)
15:58:12 <martind> and the QA tool will also involve new TM API calls
15:58:43 <BlakeGirardot> ya, the api needs some expansion and the data model in the TM probably needs some expanding to help with that (maybe) but again, they should be able to make PRs to support that.
15:58:49 <martind> do we know who the developer is at DevSeed?
15:58:53 <cristiano> right. Would be nice to have some kinda of browsable API similar to what we have in Export Tools
15:59:25 <cristiano> Or at least some api docs
15:59:39 <dodobas> martind: there are some commits in the repo
15:59:54 <pgiraud> https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/wiki/API
15:59:56 <BlakeGirardot> And if need be I think we can ask them to make their PRs more general to support other uses if need be, but if not, I am find with specific api extensions as long as they are writing the code.
16:00:48 <Tyler_Radford> Is the current API documented somewhere
16:00:56 <BlakeGirardot> https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/wiki/API
16:01:01 <dodobas> They seem to be a bit time constrained
16:01:12 <BlakeGirardot> Not as time constrained as us.
16:01:43 <Tyler_Radford> Thanks @BlakeGirardot
16:02:16 <pgiraud> do you mean constrained by the lack of available resources or by the delays?
16:02:32 <BlakeGirardot> lack of available resources
16:02:41 <BlakeGirardot> namely the time resource
16:02:49 <Tyler_Radford> @dodobas I asked Dale to ask DevSeed to add a pull request as you suggested
16:02:54 <BlakeGirardot> but i also get it is up to the contributors to the code base what they want to work on
16:02:58 <dodobas> so not sure what will they produce...
16:03:01 <dodobas> Tyler_Radford: ok
16:03:10 <cristiano> that's useful BlakeGirardot - I didn't see that page before
16:03:23 <pgiraud> my bad
16:03:32 <BlakeGirardot> (I just copied pgiraud link :)
16:03:37 <pgiraud> :)
16:03:44 <pgiraud> that one is interesting as well
16:03:45 <pgiraud> https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/wiki/API-Authentication
16:04:11 <pgiraud> something we've been asked to think about at Camptocamp
16:04:16 <dodobas> cristiano: OAM ?
16:04:23 <pgiraud> the last time we extended the API
16:04:45 <cristiano> sure dodobas
16:05:09 <dodobas> is there anything else for TM ?
16:05:36 <BlakeGirardot> Can I just get in
16:05:57 <BlakeGirardot> that my top priority is tags on projects, I really think that will help with organizing projects on the "front page" of the TM
16:06:01 * pgiraud doesn't understand the "take the money and run"
16:06:18 <dodobas> pgiraud: ill get to that :)
16:06:22 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: what
16:07:00 <BlakeGirardot> Just sharing that as my top TM priority. Adding tags to projects that we can use for organization on the TM "front page"
16:08:10 <cristiano> Re OAM: System is running and more imagery is being added. The token provision system for uploads is still kinda clunky, since it relies on email/github, and I always miss them, but it seems that Nate is taking care of them. There were some issues with the token server, so we'd have to check from time to time or put a monitor. Now I'm working on consolidating documentation and updating the different repos. Then submitting a proposal to have a "diffusion" phase
16:08:58 <cristiano> Things that we should check on: OAM Server management and migrating stuff out of Heroku
16:09:29 <cristiano> I mean, we could leave it there, but we have the grant from Amazon, so we should use AWS
16:10:51 <BlakeGirardot> If they do not help with organization on the "front page" then they are much less important, but I think they would offer us a number of benefits.
16:11:27 <cristiano> I think that's it for the technical stuff. There is some more activity and efforts on future dev funding
16:12:15 <mkl> where is the repo with the potential PR for OSMTM?
16:12:43 <BlakeGirardot> https://github.com/AmericanRedCross/tasking-manager-stats/issues/1
16:13:03 <BlakeGirardot> mkl: ^^^^
16:14:31 <mkl> thx BlakeGirardot. yea my understanding is their focus is getting data for user profiles, not improving OSMTM front end
16:14:42 <BlakeGirardot> Yes, not related at all.
16:15:30 <mkl> pgiraud, did you see the email from MSF, looking to integrate a microtasking tool into OSMTM?
16:15:38 <pgiraud> yes I did
16:16:56 <pgiraud> I was also in touch with Ivan
16:17:13 <dodobas> oki... should we continue ? with the agenda ?
16:17:20 <mkl> sorry...
16:17:40 <martind> :)
16:17:55 <dodobas> #topic Development issues
16:19:11 <dodobas> most development has happend through contractors...
16:19:48 <dodobas> and those contractors usuall don't stick around after the contract runs out...
16:20:29 <dodobas> which is fine, as they are contractors by definition, but ...
16:21:16 <cristiano> OAM's do :)
16:21:28 <dodobas> we need to, somehow include, 'handing over the project to the community' into the contractors...
16:21:38 <dodobas> *contracts
16:21:51 <BlakeGirardot> 1. lots of comments in code should be in the contract
16:22:14 <BlakeGirardot> 2. Screen cast "code tour" as a deliverable.
16:22:20 <dodobas> cristiano: maybe, are there any outside contributors ?
16:22:47 <BlakeGirardot> 3. Stack and library notes
16:22:53 <dodobas> we still don't know much about the OAM, other than it's live ...
16:23:35 <cristiano> a few outside PRs but not as much as I would hope
16:23:40 <Tyler_Radford> agree we need to improve handover. another thing we need to build into contracts is a support/warranty period
16:23:45 <mkl> BlakeGirardot: 4. prioritizations of outstanding issues
16:24:04 <BlakeGirardot> +1 mkl
16:24:43 <dodobas> so let's take OAM as an example... and try to apply BlakeGirardot actions
16:24:53 <dodobas> 1. not sure
16:24:58 <dodobas> 2. did not happen
16:25:04 <cristiano> I'm due a blog post with an update on OAM, but I need to finish cleaning up the docs first
16:25:12 <dodobas> 3. there are none
16:25:22 <dodobas> 4. are there issues ?
16:25:50 <BlakeGirardot> The project manager could handle 4 and a bit of a road map for future contributions.
16:26:22 <BlakeGirardot> The developers need to do the first 3 I think.
16:26:37 <cristiano> 4. issues are there, but not prioritized yet
16:27:11 <cristiano> stack and library notes are in each repo. I need to consolidate links to them from the main OAM repo
16:27:53 <cristiano> We did not include a screen-cast requirement, but we did do live deployments with dodobas
16:27:56 <BlakeGirardot> ( we never have formalized any of this so should not be expected, I was just thinking going forward, what would help someone coming to the code base brand new)
16:28:39 <Tyler_Radford> Guys let's focus on these being ideas for improvement for future projects
16:28:50 <dodobas> my point is, we (the community) is left with a 'dump of code'
16:28:57 <dodobas> Tyler_Radford: exactly
16:29:09 <cristiano> Also, would be good to get sysadmin feedback/guidelines on how things should be structured to facilitate handover
16:29:11 <dodobas> *are left
16:29:16 <cristiano> I mean TWG guidelines
16:31:04 <dodobas> also, not all projects need to be maintained by the community, some are just like that
16:31:16 <dodobas> too big, not interesting, ...
16:32:06 <BlakeGirardot> hmmmm... i think we need to count on community contributions for most of it going forward, especially maintenance and little feature additiions.
16:32:30 <BlakeGirardot> Larger scale evolutions or add ons maybe we can get funded, but it is really difficult.
16:32:37 <dodobas> however in the end, a new contractor should not spend too much time, digging through the code...
16:34:55 <dodobas> do we agree that we neet to figure this out ?
16:35:21 * BlakeGirardot nods agreeably.
16:35:53 <dodobas> dose anyone have any experience with that ?
16:36:44 <BlakeGirardot> I can take a shot at some guidlines and add them to our github repo wiki
16:37:00 <BlakeGirardot> because really some of them apply to any code contributions contractor or community.
16:37:02 <dodobas> martind: do you have anything to add ?
16:37:13 <martind> I've no experience with this particular situation, but I think it may also simply be worth to have long-term contractor relationships, use the same people for new projects. We're not building industry standard architecture here, so every new contractor will have to learn a lot before they get started
16:37:15 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: exactly
16:37:59 <pgiraud> I would just like to add that our goal doesn't have to be to scare the contractors
16:38:05 <martind> :)
16:38:31 <dodobas> pgiraud: they are paid, they need to include that into thier contract fee...
16:38:36 <dodobas> :)
16:38:44 <pgiraud> you're right
16:38:54 <dodobas> it's a risk, right ?
16:39:10 <pgiraud> and it will become more expensive than HOT can affort
16:39:12 <pgiraud> afford
16:39:27 <BlakeGirardot> Maintaining legacy code is pretty well known issue as well as how documentation helps that issue.
16:40:29 <pgiraud> if the guidelines are too restrictive, I'll probably more and more hesitant to ask Camptocamp to apply for a possible contract
16:41:07 <pgiraud> though I agree that well documented code is much better for everyone
16:41:25 <martind> personally I'd prefer a good contractor relationship to a highly specified contract; we're unlikely to be able to articulate all that matters, and instead it might be more efficient to simply go with people who are culturally close anyway. e.g., to prefer contractors from within the community.
16:41:46 <BlakeGirardot> I was kind of hoping the screencast code tour would actually reduce the time and effort needed for hand off doc
16:42:30 <dodobas> pgiraud: OTOH, it would be much better for the TM project if next round of development is not done by the same main developer :)
16:42:36 <dodobas> IMHO :)
16:42:42 * martind applauds :)
16:42:51 <BlakeGirardot> heh. Not me :)
16:43:02 <pgiraud> I don't think I understand
16:43:12 <martind> we'd like to take some pressure off you
16:43:25 <pgiraud> am I doing a bad job?
16:43:36 <martind> no! au contraire
16:43:50 <pgiraud> I'd like dodobas point of view
16:44:59 <dodobas> pgiraud: of course not, however, a fres set of eyes, will ask many questions
16:45:18 <pgiraud> I agree with this too
16:45:36 <martind> for me it's about a) bus number and b) maintenance: adding capacity to review/release external contributions
16:45:41 <dodobas> at the moment only you knows the system, no one else
16:45:56 <pgiraud> that's correct
16:46:07 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, but that is not pgiraud's issue really. We have not done something to expand those who know the codebase.
16:46:19 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: exactly
16:46:29 <dodobas> that's wahat i tride to say...
16:46:41 <pgiraud> is it because it's difficult to use/read? or because this project is not interesting enough?
16:46:46 <BlakeGirardot> We don't attract enough community developers who will stick around and take the time.
16:47:03 <BlakeGirardot> I mean, interesting project almost doesn't apply
16:47:08 <martind> I think it's also simply a matter of promoting the people we already have
16:47:10 <BlakeGirardot> people what to help HOT
16:47:10 <dodobas> it would be better for the project, in the long run
16:47:17 <martind> giving them the confidence that we trust their judgment
16:47:20 <BlakeGirardot> with code, but we are not doing enough outreach or something.
16:47:44 <russdeffner> agree with martind - on similar note, 'giving' ownership, building some accountability, etc.
16:47:48 <pgiraud> would it be different if the codebase was different? based on django for example?
16:47:55 <martind> BlakeGirardot: we do attract developers -- have a look at the contributors on Github. However we don't ever give them responsibilities
16:47:57 <dodobas> pgiraud: no, man...
16:47:58 <BlakeGirardot> I think we have a great code base
16:48:13 <dodobas> it's not anything like that...
16:48:24 <BlakeGirardot> I like it, not especially complicated, standard libraries and frameworks.
16:48:39 <dodobas> we as a communiyi, depent too much on you ...
16:48:43 <pgiraud> is it related to what Vladimir wrote in a recent blog post?
16:49:09 <dodobas> as you are the 'project'
16:49:15 <BlakeGirardot> martind: It is a delicate balance, there has to be some sort of mentoring to build trust
16:49:21 <martind> as someone who's gone through the code -- it is not about the codebase. I think it's simply the lack of a clear development model. E.g., atm it's not clear who can review/release external contributions when Pierre is busy
16:49:34 <BlakeGirardot> martind: interesting.
16:49:38 <martind> It doesn't need to go as far as appointing a formal group of maintainers. I think we can simply increase the number of people who are familiar enough with the code, and feel empowered to make certain kinds of judgment calls.
16:49:44 <martind> dodobas has been doing TM review/release work, and maybe we can encourage him to do more of that; but he's similarly busy it seems, so I'm  also curious who else you think may be good for this, and interested/motivated; and to then give them the support they need to take ownership.
16:49:59 <martind> essentially building a team around Pierre
16:50:19 <dodobas> pgiraud: what blog post ?
16:50:22 <martind> that's specifically focused on release management and maintenance; not necessarily writing code (unless they want to)
16:50:24 * pgiraud searching
16:50:54 <pgiraud> https://medium.com/@agafonkin/agree-with-all-the-points-thanks-for-sharing-this-22742cf4fb2#.4nna7tj8l
16:51:01 <pgiraud> worth reading ^^^
16:51:09 <martind> https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/graphs/contributors 28 contributors so far
16:51:12 <dodobas> martind: yeah, to have someone else with confidence to test PR, merge, ... release
16:51:25 <martind> that's not a small developer community
16:52:03 <martind> oooh nice one pgiraud -- judging by the headline that speaks exactly to the issue of encouragement
16:52:41 <pgiraud> how many of the contributors would be ready to merge pull requests, not so many unfortunately
16:53:24 <martind> dodobas: how far away would you say are you from managing a release yourself, without Pierre? assuming no major issues in the code changes
16:53:25 <pgiraud> as already said it's not really a matter of contributions but more a problem of project management
16:53:55 <BlakeGirardot> Well, it takes some expert technical evaluation of who is qualified to merge PRs
16:53:55 <pgiraud> he's already ready
16:53:58 <dodobas> martind: i have no issues with confidence, only time... :)
16:54:26 <martind> who would be next in line after dodobas, no matter how early-stage they are?
16:54:27 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, I am meaning beyond dodobas and pgiraud
16:54:33 <mkl> can we gather OSMTM code contributors, and try to recruit?
16:54:34 <BlakeGirardot> Like Ethan for example
16:54:49 <pgiraud> ethan did a really great work
16:54:54 <pgiraud> I trust him a lot
16:55:02 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, I think he would be next in line for that kind of responsibility
16:55:03 <martind> ethan is committer #3 on the project
16:55:15 <martind> would he be interested in helping to review/release?
16:55:27 <pgiraud> people from mapbox also did a lot of interesting work recently as well
16:55:55 <martind> names pls :)
16:56:00 <pgiraud> he's already involved since he answers comments on issues ahead of me
16:56:01 <martind> so we know who to encourage
16:57:06 <pgiraud> martind, batpad (I'm pretty sure he's from MapBox Bengalore)
16:57:08 <BlakeGirardot> And working on deployment to the dev server, that makes this a bit easier as well, that can't all rest on dodobas's shoulders
16:57:40 <BlakeGirardot> I mean it can, but might help if it didn't :)
16:57:49 <mkl> Sanjay may be willing to help out, yes
16:58:04 <martind> yes batpad (Sanjay) is #6, and earlier last year there was elemoine; and there's Blake on #4
16:58:26 <pgiraud> BlakeGirardot, I agree
16:58:49 <pgiraud> each time I ask dodobas for dev instance update, I'm feeling guilty
16:59:40 <pgiraud> it's maybe stupid but it it slows me a bit when I'd like to push a release
17:00:19 <dodobas> pgiraud: that's how a community works, it takes time
17:00:23 <martind> is anyone here in close contact with Ethan and Sanjay already? any other nominees?
17:00:33 <mkl> I work with Sanjay
17:00:47 <dodobas> one man band is faster, but he does not have the stamina :)
17:01:11 <martind> who is a good person to train them up, provided they're interested?
17:01:27 <martind> or at least -- to answer random questions and do a few test runs
17:01:44 <martind> e.g. "review this pull request"
17:01:58 <martind> "now release it" (maybe harder...)
17:02:18 <harry-wood> you are martind :-)
17:02:50 <martind> I'm always happy to support people where it's useful, but I've never reviewed a pull request or done a release
17:02:54 <martind> (for the TM)
17:03:15 <martind> but actually I'd be happy to help maintain the project
17:04:17 <martind> mainly though I want to make sure that a good team is in place so it's not all on Pierre and Drazen
17:05:10 <harry-wood> Is it nice and easy to install a dev instance of TM? Ease of install leads to ease of testing out pull requests etc.
17:05:28 <martind> iirc it's quite straightforward
17:05:32 <martind> and very well documented
17:05:34 <harry-wood> …I should mention I feel guilty for not having tried it
17:05:36 <pgiraud> OK guys, we've been around for 2 hours now, and the discussion is really interesting, but I'll have to get back to work or even get back home now
17:05:40 <martind> been a while since I tried it
17:05:54 <pgiraud> nothing changed a lot recently
17:06:28 <Tyler_Radford> I'm also stepping out unless I'm needed for anything
17:06:54 <BlakeGirardot> So this is something we should work on too... expanding the group of people we trust with merging PRs and deploying to the dev server?
17:07:06 <martind> I think so
17:07:10 <BlakeGirardot> And we have a few people to reach out to already
17:07:19 <martind> When pgiraud came to London last year we discussed recruiting more TM developers to take pressure off him, but atm I'm hesitant to recruit anyone because I'm not sure we have capacity to give them early feedback
17:08:03 <pgiraud> BlakeGirardot, no one is deploying to the dev server but dodobas
17:08:06 <BlakeGirardot> But it will still need rely on dodobas and pgiraud to make that happen because they are really the only two qualified people to make the final decsion on that and help with the learning curv.
17:08:10 <russdeffner> mkl - have a few to chat with Katja on mumble after this?
17:08:12 <BlakeGirardot> Oh
17:08:13 <BlakeGirardot> ok
17:08:25 <pgiraud> even me I don't have enough permissions  ;-)
17:08:59 <BlakeGirardot> I just thought that would be part of the merging process. I thought it would help if it was easier to push to the dev server.
17:09:07 <dodobas> you can always test locally :)
17:09:10 <BlakeGirardot> I do
17:09:17 <martind> so yes I suggest to contact Sanjay and Ethan, asking if they'd be interested in review/release work for the TM. happy to do that unless there's someone better suited for this
17:09:45 <pgiraud> the deployment on the dev server is only to get confident enough before we go live
17:10:10 <martind> pgiraud: dodobas: how do you currently decide what needs review? is there a good simple coordination process? or should I simply tell them "have a look at the open PRs"
17:10:42 <martind> we're not currently making use of assignees are we
17:10:54 <pgiraud> no we're not
17:11:19 <mkl> @martind --- email Sanjay and cc me. I'll make sure we discuss here
17:11:19 <martind> that could be a good simple coordination mechanism
17:11:36 <mkl> @russdeffner -- I can't do voice, but can do text here or on Skype
17:11:36 <pgiraud> none of the pull request that are in the list currently are as far as I know ready to be merged
17:11:37 <martind> super, thanks mkl
17:12:12 <martind> already got suggestions for ones that are suitable for someone less experienced? no biggie if not
17:12:30 <martind> maybe something to discuss later
17:13:15 <martind> ok I think we can close this. taks for me: email Sanjay/Ethan, first steps at allocating PRs
17:13:40 <martind> got a most busy week so may have to wait until next week to kick it off
17:14:59 <dodobas> so... can we move to the next item ?
17:15:07 <martind> yes
17:15:21 <martind> (I think so)
17:15:27 <pgiraud> thanks guys, sorry I won't be able to the end of the meeting
17:15:40 <dodobas> #topic new services
17:16:15 <dodobas> so there is project in uganda, mapping financial services
17:16:36 <dodobas> they need a simple blog/news site
17:16:58 <mkl> gitpages
17:17:00 <mkl> ?
17:17:01 <dodobas> we have already purchased the domain 'mauganda.org'
17:17:21 <dodobas> mkl: the problem is updating... for non techikical users
17:17:48 <dodobas> my idea is to step away from drupal/wordpress, and use Grav
17:18:00 <dodobas> https://getgrav.org/
17:18:26 <dodobas> it's a flat-file CMS
17:18:59 <BlakeGirardot> Website makes it look good :)
17:19:11 <BlakeGirardot> Flat-file is nice.
17:19:28 <dodobas> that has a very nice configurable admin interface, in which you can define custom pages attributes
17:19:42 <dodobas> http://mapuganda.dev.hotosm.org/
17:20:10 <BlakeGirardot> https://getgrav.org/downloads/skeletons
17:20:33 <dodobas> this is simple site, done over the weekend...
17:20:54 <BlakeGirardot> http://demo.getgrav.org/twentyfifteen-skeleton/en
17:21:19 <BlakeGirardot> the 2015 site I like more because big pictures :)
17:21:22 <dodobas> i can share admin credentials if anyone is interestjd...
17:23:16 <dodobas> i still don't have too much details on what will they need, but it seems as an interesting option
17:23:36 <BlakeGirardot> I don't see why not. We need to try new things that are easy but effective.
17:24:21 <BlakeGirardot> And really the admin input is probably one of the most important feedbacks if we are going to host it for them.
17:25:22 <BlakeGirardot> I have to run. Thank you everyone!
17:25:30 <dodobas> i like it bacause, you can define custom forms and create custom admin pages
17:25:50 <dodobas> so... that's all I have
17:26:16 <BlakeGirardot> thank you dodobas, i would love to see the backend of the cm
17:26:17 <BlakeGirardot> cms
17:26:47 <dodobas> anyone wants to add something, that's not on the agenda ?
17:27:03 <dodobas> BlakeGirardot: sure, ping me when you get back
17:28:35 <dodobas> ok, i think we are done... 2h30min ...
17:28:38 <dodobas> :)
17:28:49 <dodobas> thank you for participating :)
17:29:01 <dodobas> #endmeeting