Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20061114/Log

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	=-=	Etienne has changed the topic to “Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks”
	<deelkar>	but Bremen is a big hole on the map on the website
	<dotbaz>	deelkar, have you tried rendering with osmarender?
	<deelkar>	dotbaz not yet
	=-=	User mode for Etienne is now -R
	=-=	YOU are now known as _80n
	<sxpert>	deelkar, as I said, the map on the website is undergoing massive surgery
	<dotbaz>	That way you can tell if it looks ok, then you just have to wait & it will turn up...
	<dotbaz>	..sometime
	<deelkar>	I understand that, now.
	<deelkar>	I thought I had missed a major point in the process, turns out I just missed the part that the map on the website is undergoing massive surgery
	<f_mohr>	we should note that on the website ....
	<sxpert>	f_mohr, be my guest :D
	<_80n>	OK, anyone got any questions about mapping techniques, etc?
	<dotbaz>	How about putting the town(city?) Bremen & look out for it at http://almien.co.uk/OSM/Places/
	<dpenezic>	_80n: I have :)
	<_80n>	go ahead
	<dpenezic>	how to map crossing trunk size roads ?
	<sxpert>	f_mohr, where's that artem dude when you need him :D
	<f_mohr>	artem?
	<dpenezic>	which isnt circle
	<_80n>	do they actually meet or does one go over the other?
	<dpenezic>	meet
	<_80n>	single or dual carriageway?
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	<dpenezic>	large crosing squer type cca 50 x 50 m
	<almien>	no new cities are being listed there until the API search function becomes available
	<dpenezic>	dual
	<sxpert>	f_mohr, the dude that does the mapnik stuff
	<deelkar>	dotbaz: forgive my english, but I don't understand what you mean
	<deelkar>	by "putting the city Bremen"
	<_80n>	so you need four nodes at the intersection (at least)
	<dpenezic>	I did, but it isnt easy , I will try top put picture on the web of one of then
	<_80n>	each trunk road will be made of two ways, one for each direction.
	<dotbaz>	sorry deelkar, add a node tagged name=Bremen, place=town, place_name=Bremen
	<f_mohr>	@deelkar as an example you can check my darmstadt mapping .. josm bookmark is on the wiki
	<_80n>	There may also be additional ways if there are lanes that cut corners etc.
	<deelkar>	dotbaz: I'll try that :)
	<_80n>	Is it all on one level or do some lanes go over others?
	<dpenezic>	it doesnt look nice when renedr do a job :(
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	<dpenezic>	nope , everything is in same level
	<_80n>	what looks wrong - are you getting joins visible or something?
	<deelkar>	dotbaz: done that, now we'll see :)
	<dpenezic>	_80n: http://www.idolg.net/osm/IMG_1107.JPG
	<dotbaz>	:-) - yep. Just wait, but it could be a while from what almien just said...
	<dpenezic>	it look like a mess
	<deelkar>	well I can wait if I know there will be something happening, instead of getting the feeling of doing futile work
	<_80n>	ok, so there are diagonal paths as well as the main routes
	<dpenezic>	yap
	<dotbaz>	deelkar, meanwhile render some with osmarender that will make you feel better :-)
	<dpenezic>	and separet pats on every corner too
	<blarson>	Is there any way to convince osamarender to correctly render ways that are not entierly in the selected area?
	<dpenezic>	blarson: What exactlx happend ?
	<blarson>	They are missing, unless they are some of the lines from the upper left corner to random positions.
	<dpenezic>	do you have some example for test ?
	<dotbaz>	blarson: is that rendereng direct from josm?
	<_80n>	dpenezic: I'm just trying to draw something in JOSM - will take a couple of minutes
	<blarson>	http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.3/map?bbox=-118.24695471707625,34.081408474771294,-118.19908225138218,34.123725370372455
	<blarson>	I 5 at the bottom doesn't left doesn't show up.
	<blarson>	dotbaz: yes, using the josm plugin.
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	<dpenezic>	_80n: O.K. no problem ... I have 3 crossroad of same type on this street
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	<dpenezic>	blarson: sorry I can help with JOSM , i dont get anythig wen use that plugin
	<dotbaz>	That's been pretty common for me. Something to do with the plugin. Rendereing separately is much better.
	<Blackadder>	Nice to see a full house again tonight
	<dotbaz>	I use the plugin more as a ahh-I-can-see-Ive-made-progress button :-)
	<dpenezic>	dotbaz: I save and copy to osmarender :)
	<dotbaz>	Yep. Works a treat!
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	<_80n>	Blackadder: Hi
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	<blarson>	How should a busway station be done? Like a light rail station, only it's for articulated busses on a dedicated busway.
	<dpenezic>	blarson: I put a symbol on it (bus_station), but doesnt look good
	<blarson>	Metro calls it the orange line. Gold, blue and green lines are light rail, red line is subway.
	<_80n>	blarson: I don't think we have any tags for this kind of thing yet. Just a node tagged as amenity=bus_station
	<Blackadder>	hi _80n
	<_80n>	We need tags for railway platforms etc. Andy?
	<Blackadder>	hm
	<Blackadder>	well its not the railway and its not a highway either
	* sxpert	imports latest planet.osm in his postgres db :D
	<Ben_robbins_>	landuse=platform?
	<blarson>	I did it as busway=station for now.
	<Blackadder>	Ben_robbins_: no, doesnt fit
	<mcn>	i thought there was a railway=halt
	<mcn>	although that's still not quite true
	<Ben_robbins_>	its an area rather than a way
	<mcn>	Ben_robbins_: landuse is for marking out general areas of land, not specifics
	<Ben_robbins_>	yeah, platforms are a general area of cement
	<Blackadder>	Logically a railway platform is part of the rail way. Much the same as a pavement (sidewalk) is part of a highway
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	<Blackadder>	So you could use railway=rail plus abutter=platform
	<Blackadder>	that would work for me
	<mcn>	Ben_robbins_: no, like "this area is generally residential housing", or "this area is generally industrial use", rather than "this area is a specific bit of concrete for alighting trains"
	<Ben_robbins_>	blackadder: thats only so on the smaller stations, on the biiger ones the platoforms contiue off
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	<_80n>	dpenezic: Should your junction look like this: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/80n80n/trunk.jpg
	<Blackadder>	Ben_robbins_: Right, so we would need a footway application there as its not part of the rail way
	<Ben_robbins_>	mcn: ok, landuse=transport then if it cant be specific
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	<mcn>	that is still specific :-)
	<Ben_robbins_>	landuse=something?
	<_80n>	dpenezic: ..or do you wan't something better?
	<_80n>	s/'//
	<Blackadder>	Ben_robbins_: Hang on, if its not adjacent to the rail its not a platform.
	<mcn>	no, but the railway station (or whatever) might be in a large area that is landuse=residential, though
	<Ben_robbins_>	balckadder: no its part of the station as a whole i suppose, landuse=platform would be the wrong word, but its still landuse i think
	<Ben_robbins_>	mcn: well landuse=transport would cover large areas. An airport is pretty huge for 1
	<_80n>	blarson: would something like railway paltforms help with your bus station?
	<Blackadder>	Break down the railway station into its logical components. We have buildings plus the rail line and adjacent highways. The area that the buildings and all the railway infrastructure could be tagged with a landuse= tag
	<dpenezic>	_80n: that will be O.K. ... I will try to do right now, but I am not sure is it enought space on map to do that
	<Blackadder>	Then you would have your buildings and ways on top
	<blarson>	@_80n: It's the same as light rail platforms.
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	<Ben_robbins_>	Blackadder: yeah. although what would the tag be for the large areas that often are just extended platoform areas? cause there permissive footways in effect, but over an area
	<mcn>	Blackadder: right, that sounds correct, although is still more specific than the current use of "landuse"
	<_80n>	dpenezic: The diagonal roads are tagged with highway=trunk_link - it would render better if the width of trunk_link was narrower.
	<_80n>	Ben_robbins_: similar to a pedestrian precinct
	<Blackadder>	mcn: We havent really been though and properly defined the logical landuse tags. Ideally there would be just a few of them, very generic. Some are obvious but we can't tag very train station, bus station and other "developed" area differntly or we will just have a mess. So landuse=developed would be fine for me
	<_80n>	dpenezic: if the carriageways are close together then the diagonals will merge together with the default rendering - but would still be visible if rendered at a different scale.
	<mcn>	yes, something like that sounds like a good idea
	<Ben_robbins_>	Blackadder: I think landuse=transport as the transport is an entire sector of the country
	<Blackadder>	Ben_robbins_: Thats subjective, which I try to avoid. Yes we have a lot of transport but we also have a lot of hospitals, schools etc etc
	<Ben_robbins_>	hosptials and schools is specific, that would be health and eductaion, although both of them are more specific that transport wich is very broad
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	<Blackadder>	Ben_robbins_: The other point i'll make is about the direction we hopefully are heading on the next generation of tags
	<dpenezic>	-80n: http://www.idolg.net/osm/map-example.jpg
	<dpenezic>	what you think ?
	<Ben_robbins_>	Blackadder: next generation?
	<sxpert>	imho, the X in the middle is not necessary
	<_80n>	Ben_robbins_: for a hospital you would have a node tagged amenity=hospital, which would pinpoint the front entrance. But you would want to shade the land extent of the hospital in a distict colour.
	<Blackadder>	We want where possible to spilt the physical from the descriptive. So a trasportation facility will have two elements. A description of the physical (built environment) and then the other stuff which in this case defines it as transport
	<Ben_robbins_>	_80n: yes, im not suggesting it should have its own landuse
	<rjmunro>	Is there somewhere a dynamic list of all the tags that have been applied?
	<mcn>	dpenezic: that looks good to me
	<sxpert>	unless you have some specific islands in the middle of hte intersection to guide traffic
	<mcn>	sxpert: yeah, i think there were (from the photo)
	<_80n>	The X is not totally necessay - but if you wanted to draw it then I think dpenezic's example is the way to do it.
	<dpenezic>	mcn: O.K.
	<sxpert>	mcn, found the picture... this intersection is definately wierd in a german sense of wrong :D
	<mcn>	lol
	<dpenezic>	i am wonder what will be happend if some software use OSM data for navigation
	<mcn>	dpenezic: you probably need "oneway=yes" on a lot of those ways
	<sxpert>	dpenezic, my software navsys already does so :D
	<almien>	someone on wiki bought pda with tomtom and can't get it to do tracklogs
	<_80n>	dpenezic: does the North/South route actually get wider near to the junction?
	<Blackadder>	rjmunro: There is not an OSM definitive list of all the keys that have been used to date. However various people do analyise the planet file for this
	<sxpert>	mcn, if you look carefully, you can see cars driving on the left at some points ...
	<rjmunro>	Blackadder: Has anyone put the list on the web?
	<dpenezic>	_80n: just a moment I will create some snapshot
	<Blackadder>	almien: With a PDA they should be able to run GPS Gate or similar and then a seperate logging software on the extra GPS serial port
	<mcn>	almien: tomtoms have problems with tracklogs, as they tend to log the "corrected" point (i.e. tied to their internal data) rather than the actual gps point... tuxit/clive knows more about this
	<almien>	reply at bottom of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:Getting_Involved
	<Blackadder>	rjmunro: Do a mailing list trawl and you should find something
	<Blackadder>	almien: Will do thanks
	<sxpert>	mcn, it's a matter of writing a log app for opentom ;D
	<mcn>	dpenezic: ew, right, but the main north-south and east-west roads should be one-way still, I guess?
	<mcn>	tuxit did work on it, and got it logging I think with the normal tomtom software to sd card
	<dpenezic>	yes
	<mcn>	but the version of the software he used logged the adjusted point, not the real point
	<almien>	hmm, even in 3 minutes my webhost can't download walton data from osm
	<mcn>	i think he found a possible way of grabbing the real gps data, though, but i'm not sure
	<sxpert>	mcn, what if you use the software with no integrated maps ?
	<mcn>	dunno, not sure if he tried that
	<mcn>	annoying, i can't remember the name of the addon program he had to install
	<rjmunro>	Has anyone played with opentom?
	<mcn>	sxpert: see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:Clive he's put some comments about the tomtom there
	<sxpert>	mcn, right
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	<Blackadder>	almien: Munin for db was showing pretty high load earlier today. May be the same issue tonight
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	<dpenezic>	mcn,_80n : http://www.idolg.net/osm/map-test1.jpg
	<rjmunro>	Is it possible to contribute computing time to render the new tiles, like it is to render the things on http://almien.co.uk/OSM/Places/
	<Blackadder>	rjmunro: Thats been discussed in the past but not an option at the current time
	<_80n>	dpenezic: nice - are you using the layer tag for the junction in the top right corner?
	<Blackadder>	brb
	<mcn>	dpenezic: nice! some of the roads look a bit wobbly, are they really like that? (also, should the rail/tram line at the bottom be more central to the roads?)
	<_80n>	dpenezic: is it the roads that are wobbly or your GPS traces?
	<mcn>	_80n: that's a better way of putting it than I did! ;-)
	<dpenezic>	_80n: Yes it is layer tag -1 for now , I will see in a past
	<Kripton>	Hi there! When I upload GPS-data via the website, why don't they occur when I download the region via JOSM?
	* Kripton	(is new to OSM)
	<mcn>	hi Kripton!
	<dpenezic>	mcn: it is GPS track taking with my GPS BT and Nokia 7710
	=-=	Kripton is now known as jannis
	<sxpert>	_80n, guess the road makers there are drunk all day :D
	<jannis>	damn, wrong nick for this network ...
	<sxpert>	hi jannis !
	<jannis>	;)
	<dpenezic>	_80n: it is just first releas, I have policy to re check route with few GPS trace , and then make final decision
	<_80n>	sxpert: ...or the tram drivers ;-)
	<mcn>	dpenezic: ok, what I mean to say is I guess it looks like you have drawn in real life?
	<mcn>	dpenezic: ok, that's a good idea
	<mcn>	i've found a lot of my roads needed tracking two or three times to make sure they are accurate, especially if near buildings or under tree cover
	<_80n>	jannis: welcome to OSM
	<mcn>	jannis: you have to wait for the server to process them and to send you an e-mail, then you can download with the GPS data option (not the OpenStreetMap option)
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	<mcn>	if that makes any sense ;-)
	<almien>	what's a good way to divide image requests between multiple mirrors, so that caching still works on the users' computers?
	<jannis>	Ah, I see... forgot the GPS-data-thing
	<dpenezic>	mcn : Yap, more imoprtant some times is to not a stop where recording, continues moving with speed of 40-50km/h give more precise route, I dont know way, but that is in my case
	<jannis>	mcn: and then I have to add nodes which match the GPS-points?
	<_80n>	jannis: there is no upload backlog - how long ago did you upload?
	<mcn>	almien: hmm, ultramonkey?
	<sxpert>	almien, having a work queue :D
	<blarson>	mcn: I've found roads that map nicley if I have one track log, and are a mess with several.
	<blarson>	Sometimes tracks are the same shape, and offset from each other by 30 meters.
	<sxpert>	almien, using linux virtual server
	<jannis>	_80n: 1 file uploaded some time ago (3 weeks), 2 files yesterday and one today
	<sxpert>	almien, sorry, previous answer was for another not yet asked question :d
	<mcn>	jannis: yes, that's right
	<_80n>	jannis: So when you download using JOSM select the Raw GPS data check box.
	<sxpert>	dpenezic, sometimes you cannot not stop, such as at a red light and a cop is watching :D
	<mcn>	dpenezic: you will find that the gps data often "floats around" a bit, but you only notice the error when you stop moving ;-)
	* almien	is currently using "links to mirror A on odd-numbered hours" to give you an idea of the technology-complexity required
	<jannis>	Yes, found it, just waiting for the server
	<sxpert>	almien, linux virtual server should be much better suited
	<mcn>	blarson: that's right, it means that the data wasn't accurate with just one log. you need to use the average position of all track logs
	<almien>	how do you set that up on a hosted website with PHP
	<mcn>	almien: er... that's not trivial :)
	<dpenezic>	sxpert: you didnt count on fact that i am policeman ;)))
	<mcn>	dpenezic: lol... mapping with blue lights flashing so you don't stop :)
	<sxpert>	dpenezic, ah :D
	<jannis>	mcn, _80n: Great, works perfectly, gonna add the OSM-nodes now ;)
	<sxpert>	dpenezic, then turn on the blue light and horn and drive through :D
	<blarson>	mcn: Have you ever tried to average tracks when the swichbacks overlap each other?
	<_80n>	dpenezic: ah...that explains your fixation with road intersections ;-)
	<sxpert>	_80n, rotfl
	<Blackadder>	jannis: Go carefully, you will find it very very addictive once you start ;-)
	<dpenezic>	_80n: Yap ;))
	<mcn>	almien: see http://www.ultramonkey.org/3/ i guess it probably isn't usable just now
	<jannis>	What to do with roundabouts?
	<almien>	document 1: "proposal to replace speed cameras with a website that people feel compelled to upload tracklogs to"
	<jannis>	I drove them in both directions, so there is a circle there
	* almien	might do "odd numbered IP addresses get mirror A"
	<Blackadder>	jannis: Drove in both directions. Careful there are policement here ;-O
	<jannis>	*gg
	<dpenezic>	_80n: layers a set from -5 to 5 , way only 11 ?
	* SteveC	waves
	<Blackadder>	hi Steve
	<sxpert>	almien, linux virtual server is a layer *under* apache... at the OS level, which mucks around with the network stack
	<mcn>	jannis: put in enough nodes to make them fairly accurate; i usually use 8 nodes for reasonable size roundabout, 6 for small (never less than 6)
	<Blackadder>	jannis: JOSM has a handy tool for making a set of nodes into a regular circle
	<ajturner>	SteveC - any update on mapstraction svn?
	<_80n>	jannis: use four or more nodes, add segments in the direction of rotation, make into a way and tag with junction=roundabout, highway=whatever.
	* mcn	grins at roundabout feature :)
	<jannis>	ok, just wanted to know wether do draw the circle or use the avarage. phew, ok thanks
	<_80n>	_80n: thinks roundabout feature makes good triangles and squares as well.
	<mcn>	hmm, setting up a LVS cluster here... i should ask if we can use it for "outside" projects
	<Blackadder>	jannis: The best advice is to draw as closely as you can what is there physically. If you dont have good info then use what you do have, it can always be improved later
	<Blackadder>	_80n: +1 on that
	<mcn>	_80n: yes, it's good for squares
	<Blackadder>	Wish it dis curve smoothing though
	<mcn>	there is a bug in current josm version though
	<SteveC>	ajturner: I'll take a look
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	<mcn>	as it deselects all selected nodes. i've sent 1-line patch to imi, but not heard anything for weeks
	<Blackadder>	mcn: Which version do you mean as current. Imi's or Nicks?
	<mcn>	then you can run the function several times, and it gets more accurate
	<_80n>	mcn: I use 4 nodes for a mini-roundabout
	<mcn>	imi's
	<mcn>	ah, i just use a node and tag highway=mini_roundabout
	<Blackadder>	imi's on his travels I believe
	<mcn>	ah, right, thought he must have gone away somewhere
	<Blackadder>	mcn: me too on mini's
	<SteveC>	sxpert: you're such a troll with 'switch to postgresql'
	<sxpert>	SteveC, haha
	<mcn>	anyway, patches are in trac (as well as patch for "align in a straight line")
	<sxpert>	SteveC, that was *intended* as a troll :D
	<mcn>	SteveC: he's right
	<mcn>	:-)
	<Blackadder>	mcn: I already have an align in straight line tool. Its called node delete
	<mcn>	Blackadder: no good when you have a straight road with junctions along it
	<dpenezic>	mcn: how good you are with JOSM source ? :)
	<Blackadder>	mcn: Ah, you got me there
	<mcn>	er, i don't like java, and program only by example
	<mcn>	(program java only by example)
	<SteveC>	yes because postgres is just magically better than mysql. You're worse than the WFS-T people, at least they stated their reasons!
	<mcn>	so not that good ;)
	<mcn>	SteveC: lol
	<mcn>	mysql has such a tacky name :)
	<dpenezic>	O.K. ... it is look like I would look at source any way ;)
	<Blackadder>	stick to the topic guys :-O
	<mcknut>	evening
	<sxpert>	SteveC, hey hey, you're over-reacting there :D
	<mcknut>	almien: is @home working again now? I tried to request an update earlier but it wouldn't have it
	<dpenezic>	Blackadder: How to create arrea in JOSM ? I dint found any documentation about that ?
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	<Blackadder>	dpenezic: make a way that closes on itself and with all the segments in the same direction
	<Blackadder>	What are you creating?
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	<dpenezic>	Blackadder, and how add a tag on it ?
	<Blackadder>	If its water for instance use natural=water
	<SteveC>	ajturner: what issues are you seeing. I'm just getting it hanging...
	<ajturner>	right
	<ajturner>	that would be the issue ;)
	<dpenezic>	For now just asking :) ... in a future I will need to put area on Zagreb map , part of you see tonight
	<SteveC>	ajturner: hmmm well I'm stumped
	<almien>	mcknut what did you try
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	<ajturner>	SteveC - svn-server stuck?
	<SteveC>	ajturner: its mod_svn
	<dpenezic>	but first, i must look what is pratic in Croatia for coloring
	<Blackadder>	We don't as yet have a well documented set of keys and tags for areas, although some of the tags in Map Features apply.
	<ajturner>	apachectl graceful?
	<Blackadder>	brb
	<SteveC>	ajturner: I've already tried restarting apache
	<sxpert>	SteveC, so, what is our friend the tile maker doing at this time ?
	<SteveC>	sxpert: try emailing him? :-)
	<ajturner>	SteveC - can you try via svn+ssh?
	<mcknut>	almien: just requested a random update on the website, so I had something to run on my computer
	<dpenezic>	ajturner : stop and start only work propery with apache :)
	<SteveC>	ajturner: I'm sure the repos itself is ok
	<almien>	random update only chooses from cities with out-of-date or missing data
	<almien>	if everything is up-to-date, random_update should do nothing
	<mcknut>	yeah, it was definitely trying to do something, load data from osm
	<mcknut>	I'm trying now and it's hanging, hold on and I'll tell you what it comes up with
	<ajturner>	SteveC - hrm
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	<ajturner>	that's annoying - stoopid computerz
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	<almien>	there are about 5 places it's still trying to get data for, they all time-out after 3 minutes of downloading from OSM
	<SteveC>	almien: should be 90 seconds
	<mcknut>	oh right, yeah, that's what's happening, though one of the URLs I saw earlier, I could download fine myself
	<almien>	should be in what sense? is that the OSM server's timeout?
	<SteveC>	almien: yup
	* almien	puts it back to 90 seconds
	<SteveC>	almien: that or 40meg used by the cgi process, whatever comes first
	<almien>	can the API supply gzipped data?
	<SteveC>	almien: it does already
	<mcknut>	Warning: fopen(http://...@www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.3/map?bbox=-87.711100,41.830200,-87.611100,41.930200): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! in /hsphere/local/home/owhite/almien.co.uk/OSM/Places/index.php on line 439
	<SteveC>	looks like .1 degree square
	<SteveC>	dam ajturner left
	<almien>	ok, so I need a client capable of sending the right will-accept headers
	<mcknut>	that's Chicago
	* almien	is currently using fopen on the URLs
	<mcknut>	I'm sure one that I tried earlier was fine
	<mcknut>	almien: curl
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