Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20061010/Log

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	<blarson>	Ok, for a first mapping question: Where should place=city points go? City hall? Downtown? Average of extreme points? Average of bulk?
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	<Etienne>	AFAIK there's no hard rule about this.
	<Veggen>	I have checked where Garmin has the gps point for the place I live. And i'd say there's no real logic to it ;)
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	<Nickw>	not sure about big cities. but small cities, maybe the middle of the main street, or some obvious focal point like the city square?
	<Etienne>	City hall would be a good default, but sometimes it doesnt make sense.
	<Veggen>	I'd put it at the place which is generally recognized as the center of the city.
	<blarson>	I moved the Los Angeles one, it was way off from all of the above. It's now somewhere near city hall, in Downtown. Financial but not physical center.
	<Nickw>	fwiw, if anyone knows southampton or winchester, i used the bargate and the guildhall respectively.
	<Etienne>	At the moment Osmarender positions the caption for a city to the right of the node. Maybe it should center the caption directly over the node.
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	<Etienne>	Does LA have a center?
	<Etienne>	Ben_: U here?
	<Ben_>	yes...just...scary
	<Nickw>	as blarson says, it has a financial centre where all the high rise stuff is. its not, afaik, a cultural centre though
	<Ben_>	check google earth, the cbd seems to be visually clear
	<Etienne>	Ben_: I have a question for you.
	<blarson>	Depends on what you mean. Do you count things like San Pedro and San Fernando and Hollwood as LA? (They are leaglly.)
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	<Ben_>	Etieene: thanks... can I have it?
	<Etienne>	Ben_: You've been tagging and classifying a lot of different types of tracks, right?
	<Ben_>	yes
	<Ben_>	i have also been acumulated a lot of photos this week of the tracktypes
	<Etienne>	How would you classify this: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/80n80n/lena01.jpg
	<Ben_>	grade2
	<Etienne>	lol
	<Ben_>	its in a really bad state, but it seems to be almost some main road
	<Etienne>	Russian federal highway!
	<Ben_>	they need to sort out there roads
	<Ben_>	i usually judge a track on its surface, and the hedges/ditches and things around it, and how smooth it is. That one doesnt really seem to follow that cause its very wide with tonnes of traffic on!
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	<Veggen>	hmm. Actually, it could be a few roads I know of in Norway :)
	<Ben_>	i guess if that was commonly taged, then instead of tracktype, it would need to be roadtype, as it is much wider and appears to have a greater status than a track
	<Etienne>	More photos here: http://www.englishrussia.com/?p=315
	<Ben_>	yeah, thats grade2. Full gravel and smooth
	* cjb_ie	wonders what grade your average irish road is...
	<Ben_>	um a B minus?
	<Etienne>	It has a 70km speed limit
	<Ben_>	thats the same as a biway isnt it?
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	<tomchance>	I've got a related question about road classification in the UK
	<blarson>	highway=primary, surface=mud
	<Etienne>	tomchance: go ahead
	<tomchance>	at the moment I only tag roads as secondary if they are a UK 'B' road, but then I find minor and residential roads already in the db as secondary
	<tomchance>	I'm tempted to demote them, though I suppose someone made them secondary because they seem wider or more heavily used
	<tomchance>	Are we supposed to stick to our national convention, or some arbitrary international one?
	<Nickw>	Ben_: byway is a legal definition of an unsurfaced track with motor vehicle rights. some are gravel, some are just wide paths
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	<tomchance>	It's similar with Ralf's comment on the wiki about the sizes required for village/town/city
	<Etienne>	I would demote them if they really dont have a B classification.
	<Ben_>	nickw, yeah, I know, ive ridden some just today. Just wondering what the speed limit was on them
	<Nickw>	not sure. doubt you can go very fast on them though :-)
	<Ben_>	yeah, the ones round me are often just grass. But can and may are differnet. I asumed it was 60mph
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	<Etienne>	But sometimes there are B roads, but no obvious signs - especially once you are on the actual road
	<tomchance>	hm, is there any way to make sure, e.g. travelling the length of the road and if there's no sign with a B ref on it it's definitely not a B road?
	<tomchance>	or ask the council?
	<Ben_>	I may be completly wrong, but round me a B road will have a name as well as a number, but an A road would not
	<tomchance>	A roads can have names too
	<Nickw>	and b roads can be unnamed. can think of a few round here
	<davis_>	That's a point. What's the policy on messing with ways produced by someone else where they haven't been tagged?
	<Ben_>	there goes that theory
	<tomchance>	:)
	<davis_>	... or tagged incorrectly?
	<Ben_>	davis: tag them
	<Ben_>	if its wrong, correct it, if its not there, make it
	<Nickw>	davis_: well i've corrected a few tags. mostly unclassified rouads with highway=secondary :-)
	<tomchance>	I'm also unsure about footway vs. pedestrian (pending a vote), specifically with named alleyways that are extremely narrow (i.e. far too narrow for vehicles). I'm making them highway=pedestrian for now, but it'd good to hear what others think... wiki discussions are so slow ;-)
	<Etienne>	There is supposed to be a road numbered B3366 in Shepperton, but I've never found any signs for it.
	<davis_>	Just pile in? What about cases in which I disagree with the traces (i.e. I drive this road ~10 times/week)? Just grab the nodes and move them?
	<Nickw>	tomchance: i'd keep footway for simplicity. arguably, a footway is a footway is a footway...
	<Etienne>	davis_: yes.
	<Ben_>	Etienni: not shore if youve looked, but ive removed highway=track for the ways marked with tracktype=xyz. The tracktypes render early on, and then the footways/bridleways etc render on top of them. I figgured tracks shouldnt really be in the same group as highways, because you never have axess to them by default. They require a footpath/track to go on them.
	<Etienne>	If you live locally then you probably have better judgement than someone who drove through at 60MPH.
	<davis_>	Etienne, Ok, fine, I'll pile in. Cheers
	<tomchance>	Nickw: what would you say highway=pedestrian is suitable for, then? A definition that springs to mind is a road closed to vehicles except for e.g. deliveries in evenings. I'll also have to make osmarender label footways :)
	<davis_>	Oh, actually, I think some of the tags I've done have been garbage... I'll see if I can dig out a link to what I've done.
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	<davis_>	Argh. Why is www.openstreetmap.org so slow?
	<davis_>	Is it lack of tin?
	<Richard>	solar activity I think
	<Nickw>	tomchance: wasn't that the one for pedestrianised streets, come to think of it? in that case, my preference would be use it for pedestrianised streets, as they are very different in look to footways, and use footway for alleyways, paths etc.
	<enxrah>	Nickw: but highway=pedestrian isn't list on map_features...
	<tomchance>	enxrah: it's a proposed feature
	<Ben_>	what is a highway=pedestrian? isnt it just a footway that isnt a legal right of way? so less permissive?
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	<Nickw>	Ben_: iirc, it's the proposed tag for a pedestrianised steet
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	<Guest706>	?
	<Ben_>	whats a pedestrian street?
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	<Nickw>	a street with no access to cars. but one which still looks like a street.
	<tomchance>	http://www.barrowbc.gov.uk/images/dalton_road.jpg
	<enxrah>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bedford_Shopping_Centre_-_Feb_2004.jpg
	<Ben_>	oh, yeah, i think northampton has one of them maybe
	<enxrah>	Maybe OSM should invent it's own language to avoid any cultural specific terms? ;-)
	* Blackadder	is back
	<Ben_>	when does it stop being a footway, and start being a pedestrain highway though, casue towcester has some wide footways that look like thin versions of that
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	<enxrah>	I'd say it's pedestrian when it has buildings on it that are primarily accessed from it.
	<davis_>	Hmmm... ok, osm.org looks to be down. I've tagged a section of road; when view via the applet the road name (A272) absolutely _covers_ the road... any ideas what I did wrong?
	<Ben_>	davis: is the road name duplicated in many places?
	<Blackadder>	if its on the segments rather than the way for instance?
	<blarson>	davis_: Did you name the segments?
	<Nickw>	openstreetmap.org works for me
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	<davis_>	Ok. I think I named the segments then.
	<davis_>	Bugger.
	<Ben_>	you using the online aplet?
	<Nickw>	then again, maybe i had the main page in the cache. the traces page doesnt seem to be loading
	<Nickw>	sorry, yes it did. just slow
	<davis_>	A way == a collection of 1 or more segments.... Somehow in JOSM there's an option to name that way, but I missed that and named the segments... Probably correct?
	<Ben_>	yeah, name the way the same as you would a segment, in the box on the right
	<Nickw>	davis_: did you create a way?
	<Blackadder>	davis_: Easy to correct. Just select all those segments and delete the common key/value. Then create the way (if not already) and reapply the ref to that
	<davis_>	I'll have a look to see if I can select the way rather than the segments
	<Blackadder>	If a way is made then clicking on that will always select the way rather than the underlying segment
	<Nickw>	davis_: you should be able to select a way just by clicking on it. did you create a way to start with? - select all segments (in order), then click the 'way creation' button (the one with three nodes)
	<Blackadder>	To select a segment which is part of a way hold down the Alt key
	<davis_>	Ok, how do I join my way onto someone else's way?
	<Blackadder>	ah, ha. Now that needs a little more patience
	<Etienne>	there is currently no way to join or split ways.
	<Blackadder>	but there is a workaround
	<davis_>	Yep, I'm 99% sure I've turned my segments into a way..
	<Ben_>	is it blue?
	<Ben_>	if yes, then yes you have
	<Etienne>	segments are green, ways are blue
	<Blackadder>	davis_: (unless you have changed the default colours for segments and ways of course)
	<davis_>	Yes, it's blue.
	<blarson>	Ben_: Any idea when Los Angeles County TIGER upload will be done?
	<Ben_>	blarson: I have absoultly no idea. I'm really not the person to ask. sorry
	<davis_>	If I click a segment, it selects the way, ergo I believe I've created a way.
	<Ben_>	davis: Now add the tag's to that way
	<Richard>	blarson - you want Ben Gimpert, not Ben Robbins
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	<davis_>	Right, I've removed the tags from the segments, selected all the segments and formed them into a way
	<davis_>	Now if I go to the "properties" doohickey it'll add the tag to the way rather than the contained segments - correct?
	<Blackadder>	davis_: Just check that only the way is selected
	<davis_>	I'm trying to avoid covering OSM with pointless tags like I did last time.
	<davis_>	Blackadder, ok, how?
	<Ben_>	davis: if when you click on 1 segment the entire way is selected then you have just selected the way. Then add a tag to that
	<Blackadder>	Is the "current selection" window showing on the right hand side?
	<blarson>	Is there a shortcut key for deselect everything? Where is the list of JOSM shortcut keys?
	<davis_>	Actually, I can deselect everything, then click on the way, the entire way is selected. I'm assuming this is correct
	<Dee>	blarson: not that id seen
	<tomchance>	blarson: choose the select tool then click in some blank space
	<Ben_>	davis: yeah, that sounds right, add tags to that
	<blarson>	tomchance: which means I need to move the cursor, and is a pain.
	<Richard>	blarson: you don't need to move it much, you can use the keypress to choose the select tool
	<LordElph2>	I could use a list of shortcut keys too :)
	<Nickw>	davis_: where on a272 are you? might be in my area?
	<davis_>	Ben_, ok, tagged and uploaded. Trouble is, I can't seem to navigate the website to confirm that what I've done looks correct.
	<Ben_>	davis: whats the area?
	<davis_>	Well, i can navigate it fine; none of the pages seem to render correctly :0
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	<davis_>	I've just buggered up the area to the East of Midhurst.
	<Blackadder>	davis_: If you have the "Current Selection" pane open on the left then it will list what is selected. For a way which has no name it will say something like "29 Nodes". If there is more items in the list you can refocus your selection on the item you want.
	<RalfZ_Munich>	I am working on a list of key shortcuts. Will upload it to the wiki tomorrow.
	<Blackadder>	davis_: Sorry, pane of course is on the right
	<davis_>	Starts at 50.99,0.733W
	<Nickw>	davis_: am looking on free-map.org.uk/osmarender/. the 272 to the west of midhurst seems to have disappeared.... but i can see a primary road to the east.
	<davis_>	Blackadder, No worries, understood :0
	<Nickw>	davis_: btw live in the midhurst area? i lived in fernhurst for 10 years. and am responsible for all those footpaths...
	<davis_>	s/0/)/
	<Blackadder>	davis_: Have you tried rendering the same area with the online Osmbrowser? That may display something quicker for you
	<tomchance>	Nickw: country footpaths must take quite a few wintry tramps around fields =)
	<Nickw>	indeed. i spent rather a lot of grey november weekends in 2004 doing some in that area...
	<Ben_>	Nickw: how are you tagging different gate types (style/gate/footgate/kissinggate etc?) I have them all noted down, but i was wondering what the common way of doign it currently is
	<Nickw>	Ben_: tbh i'm not. only surveying footbridges.
	<Blackadder>	Ben_: The map features basis was to set a node at each location of a gate/style etc and then to tag the item with a highway=gate or similar
	<Ben_>	Nickw: I have them also actually, but they variy greatly, with v-styles/styles, gates etc going onto them
	<davis_>	Nickw, Ah, I think it'll be me that buggered up the A272 west of Midhurst, sorry 'bout that. btw, I live 11 miles East of Midhurst
	<Dee>	hi all
	<Etienne>	Dee: hi
	<Nickw>	davis_: no worries :-) you intending on doing the country lanes east of the 286? that's too far for me to get to these days, would be good to extend the mapping in that area.
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	<davis_>	Nickw, I could probably have a good go at the area E of the A286, and 5mi N/S of the A272.
	<Nickw>	davis_: sounds good. you into walking too?
	<davis_>	I've got a fair few traces atm, just trying to cobble them into nodes/segments/ways :)
	<Blackadder>	Anyone here planning to be at Rutland this weekend who hasnt shown their intent already. Useful to get an idea of numbers.
	<davis_>	Nah, Walking's for people that can't drive :P (joke, I spend loads of time driving around for work)
	<davis_>	Hmm... I've built my own way, then extended it with more segments... how do I join the two?
	<davis_>	shift-clicking doesn't successfully select both of them
	<Ben_>	you clicking on the segment? holding shift should allow many things to be seleceted
	<Blackadder>	No, you cannot currently join two ways like that.
	<davis_>	Ok, now it does. Weird.
	<davis_>	Oh, I gave it a go anyway.
	<Etienne>	Because there is no easy way to split ways, its not a good idea at the moment to create ways that are extremely long
	<Etienne>	I usually start a new way at each roundabout, or major junction or somewhere significant.
	<Etienne>	For motorways, I start a new way at each junction.
	<davis_>	Does that not negatively affect the concept of a single road that goes through many different places?
	<Ben_>	davis: I think ive found you. 50.98, -0.5 ish?
	<Blackadder>	davis_: If they all have the same tags then they show up as if one anyway and keeping them shorter makes for some practical flexibility
	<Etienne>	Yes, but for the moment its the only practical way to do it.
	<Etienne>	One day there will be mega-ways which allow several ways to be grouped into one.
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	<Blackadder>	Nickw: Is the current Custom JOSM displaying the landsat ok. Coz the version I'm using isnt but it may be a duff version
	<davis_>	It's got to be difficult to create your idea. (i.e I get on the M1 at junction 5 (IIRC), I leave at junction 28), if I don't get off otherwise, how do I create separate ways between each junction
	<Blackadder>	davis_: That assumes the junctions are not already mapped, which many are
	<Veggen>	basically, you will need to mark them with waypoints.
	<davis_>	Blackadder, Ah, ok. That clears it up somewhat
	<Blackadder>	Otherwise you just strat a new way every so often to split it up
	<Ben_>	on the motorway shorley there isnt any roundabouts on the main carrageway?
	<Blackadder>	davis_: I rencently cleaned up the M6 between the M1 and junction 12. In some places I had to extend ways and in others remove segments from ways to get a single way between each sliproad (including across the junction itself
	<davis_>	True, a motor way was a bad example. F. ex. I could drive the length of the A31, ignoring junctions etc. At the end of my journey, I'd tag the whole bloody lot as the A31 (or whatever road hasn't been mapped yet)
	<RalfZ_Munich>	Initial version of the list of JOSM keyboard shortcuts is now online: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/JOSM#Keyboard_Shortcuts
	<Etienne>	Ben_: I said junction, I didn't mention roundabouts on motorways (although I think M4 J7/8 is a motorway roundabout)
	<Blackadder>	davis_: or you could leave your trip as segments until more detail is filled in
	<Dee>	davis_: its mapped from alton to aldershot
	<Dee>	(and tagged)
	<davis_>	Dee, I said the length :))
	<Nickw>	Blackadder: there's a problem with the landsat server atm.
	<Blackadder>	Nickw: Thanks
	<Blackadder>	no adding that missing bit of canal tonight then ;-)
	<davis_>	Blackadder, ah, so it's considered reasonable to simply create segments and leave them untagged?
	<Dee>	davis_: ahh, ok
	<Blackadder>	davis_: In an ideal world we would create untagged ways from scratch rather than segments first. In time that will probably happen. For now, yes. I tend to leave long distance stuff where I know little about the route as segments
	<Etienne>	davis_: its ok, but if you know the area you will do a better job of tagging your own tracks than someone else will
	<Blackadder>	I agree 100% on that. If you have the info to tag it, make it a way (or ways) from the outset
	<Dee>	all tags where I know teh area I do myself
	<Dee>	otherwise, I just add segment or even just leave the traces
	<Dee>	traces even, not tags
	<davis_>	Ok, Segments are a reasonable start. Let the locals add the information if I don't _know_ it
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	<Blackadder>	I try to at least cover all my traces with nodes and segments since its not always easy for someone coming along later to guess say, that a roundabout was present.
	<davis_>	I've started doing loops round roundabouts :))
	<davis_>	That's a nice clue
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	<Blackadder>	davis_: we certainly encourage that
	<Dee>	:D
	<Dee>	see the magic roundabout (only got part though :(
	<Blackadder>	but alas sometimes the family don't want to go around every roundabout ;-)
	<Dee>	:D
	<Dee>	I do get some odd looks
	<Ben_>	i do it on bike, and motorists hate you...more so
	<Dee>	bloody hell!
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	<Dee>	my spam count is ~10x normal...
	<davis_>	Ok, just so I don't step on anyone's toes. I'm encouraged to do as I see fit, preferably creating ways if I _know_ it to be true, but don't be an idiot?
	<blarson>	Dee: I'm sure it's not much compared to bugs.debian.org.
	<davis_>	Ben_, Pushbike?
	<Ben_>	davis: yeah
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	<davis_>	Ok, I'll get on with it. I suspect I'll break some existing tags.
	<Dee>	477 Oct 8
	<Dee>	963 Oct 9
	<blarson>	How do I tag an area? area=yes, aminity=parking? How about the driveway to access it?
	<Dee>	810 Oct 10
	<Etienne>	davis_: learn how to use Osmarender to get a good rendering of what you've done - then if it looks right you are probably doing the right thing
	<Etienne>	blarson: just tag a way with amenity=parking
	<Etienne>	blarson: I usually draw the road into the carpark with highway=service
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	<davis_>	Is there a way to embiggen the OSMArender-drawn area?
	<Etienne>	blarson: sometimes I will trace out the roadways through the carpark with highway=access as well
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	<Ben_>	etieene: have you got an example area with that in, I want to take a look. My carparks are quite primative it would seem
	<Etienne>	Ben_: there are plenty in the Weybridge area. I can't lookup a specific one at the moment.
	<Ben_>	ok, i'll go hunting