Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20061212/Log

[2006-12-12 19:35:15] =-= Blackadder has changed the topic to ``Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks - 21:00 GMT today
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[2006-12-12 21:00:29] * Blackadder waves
[2006-12-12 21:00:58] <crschmidt> howdy
[2006-12-12 21:01:19] <Blackadder> 80n's not around tonight so he asked me to stand in for the Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks, so if anyone has any questions please fire away
[2006-12-12 21:01:40] <Blackadder> crschmidt: hi
[2006-12-12 21:02:32] <cjb_ie> oh, this is a regular thing? cool
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[2006-12-12 21:03:11] <Blackadder> cjb_ie: yep: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapping_Techniques%2C_Tips_and_Tricks
[2006-12-12 21:04:10] <steve8> Hi! Any advice on converting from highway=residential to landuse=residential? Nearly finished mapping a local town (Potters Bar) which is done in highway=
[2006-12-12 21:04:25] <steve8> wnt to convert to areas to idy it all up.
[2006-12-12 21:06:05] <Blackadder> steve8: You can leave the highway=residential as it is. To get the area to be coloured you need to create areas containing all those ways. Then tag that area way as landuse=residential
[2006-12-12 21:06:12] <Dee> does anyone else get problems with josm runnign for ages and eating up ALL the memory it can?
[2006-12-12 21:06:33] <Blackadder> Dee: Not see that
[2006-12-12 21:06:35] <Dee> hmmm, not a huge amount apparently
[2006-12-12 21:06:47] <Ben_123> Dee:  nope, its fine for me
[2006-12-12 21:06:49] <Dee> "you are out of memory, strange things may happen"
[2006-12-12 21:07:06] <Dee> if ive had josm runnign for over a day, its normally unusable
[2006-12-12 21:08:07] <steve8> is it reckoned to be best to break a town into sectors and make an area for each sector? Line around the outside is obvious but do folks put another way butting up to roads for instance?
[2006-12-12 21:08:53] <cjb_ie> dee: odd. i've had it running (literally) for months, with a couple of dozen gpx files loaded and a fair bit of editing going on
[2006-12-12 21:09:09] <chippy> any plugins loaded dee?
[2006-12-12 21:09:15] <cjb_ie> i've noticed it certainly takes a long time to come back out of swap if i've been doing other things for a while, though.
[2006-12-12 21:09:34] <Blackadder> steve8: Its best to create a new way for the area running close to the roads if thats the defined limit. Don't make them too big as that can cause rendering problems if only have the area is in your rendering download
[2006-12-12 21:09:38] <chippy> by sectors, do you mean neighbourhoods steve8 ?
[2006-12-12 21:10:05] <Dee> cjb_ie: landsat only
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[2006-12-12 21:10:43] <cjb_ie> coo, josm does landsat now? damn, i'm out of date.
[2006-12-12 21:10:51] <chippy> heh
[2006-12-12 21:11:00] * cjb_ie grumbles at college taking up lots of potential mapping time
[2006-12-12 21:11:02] <Blackadder> steve8: When I create these areas I tend to take them to the limit of the main thoroughfares rather than corssing those thoroughfares
[2006-12-12 21:11:11] <steve8> yes. Am thinking the primary/secondary roads break a town up into "natural" areas
[2006-12-12 21:11:12] <chippy> and any wms service if you like cjb_ie 
[2006-12-12 21:11:16] <Blackadder> cjb_ie: so it would appear ;-)
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[2006-12-12 21:11:52] <Blackadder> steve8: Yes, thats logical
[2006-12-12 21:12:44] <steve8> then you have to either re-use a way (bounding road) or butt up CLOSELY the nodes of teh area where it goes along that bounding road
[2006-12-12 21:12:58] <chippy> I've a question about school areas: a node with name:theschool and an area with the same attribute? (amenity=school name=theschool)?
[2006-12-12 21:13:41] <crschmidt> steve8: you should reuse the segments, but not the way
[2006-12-12 21:13:53] <Blackadder> steve8: Yes, better to butt closely because if the roads don't have the segments all in the same direction for your new area way the area will be broken and will not render.
[2006-12-12 21:13:58] <steve8> then you have a area way, and road way, and another area way the other side of the bounding road. Does that do it OK? Lomg as area is near enough to be covered by road symbol.
[2006-12-12 21:15:34] <Blackadder> steve8: Yes, you can always zoom in closer during edit if when rendered it does not look quite right. generally though the roads (which are drawn after the areas) cover up the area edges fine
[2006-12-12 21:15:57] <steve8> OK help needed on re-suing segments please!
[2006-12-12 21:16:53] <steve8> Dumbish question - once my road is a way how do I use the same segments as part of my area way?
[2006-12-12 21:17:58] <Blackadder> chippy: If you create an area for a school you can colour the land area. If you also apply a node at the location of the school you can use that for a school icon/symbol or text placement, eg Sch, and also apply the name of the school alongside if desired
[2006-12-12 21:18:24] <Blackadder> steve8: You can select segements of a way by holding down Alt
[2006-12-12 21:18:50] <chippy> i getcha. i shall use the name for the node only
[2006-12-12 21:19:08] <Blackadder> steve8: But make sure all the segments for your new area way are pointing in the same direction.
[2006-12-12 21:20:55] <Blackadder> cjb_ie: There are two flavours of JOSM currently. Imi's latest version with accompanying set of plug-ins provided by others but checked out for compatability by him.
[2006-12-12 21:21:05] <steve8> That is difficult though. Imagine a w-e road with segments going from w to e. Doing area below the road will require cwise and above anticwise. But will this be same on any adjoining roads needed to amke the area?
[2006-12-12 21:21:35] <Blackadder> cjb_ie: On top of that Nick Whiteleg has a version which will also permit the NPE mapping to be see as well as Landsat
[2006-12-12 21:22:16] <steve8> I'm thinking the butted up closely extra line for the area is a better bet. That is what I have used for leisure=park for instance.
[2006-12-12 21:22:24] <Blackadder> steve8: Thats why its more relaible to make a new way for the areas rather than reusing the segments
[2006-12-12 21:24:41] <Blackadder> Did anyone understand the Hamburg editing question? http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-December/009441.html
[2006-12-12 21:26:05] <steve8> If I put a area line round a village/small town and tag=residntial, and then put a leisure=park area WITHIN that will normal renderes put that on top of residential area?
[2006-12-12 21:26:28] <cjb_ie> by vectors, does he mean segments?
[2006-12-12 21:26:56] <cjb_ie> and is he complaining about people tagging those instead of ways?
[2006-12-12 21:27:03] <steve8> presume I just need to look at order of rendering things in osmarender file. Or should I use the Level=1 (is it level or layer?) for teh top one?
[2006-12-12 21:27:03] <Blackadder> steve8: That will depend upon the rendering order in the rules file for that renderer. Sometimes that can mean some adjustment to get the order right
[2006-12-12 21:28:49] <Blackadder> cjb_ie: I have not looked at the Hamburg data but I'm assuming someone has turned segments into ways and now they don't know which bits have been tagged and finished and which have not. I may be wrong though, hence my question.
[2006-12-12 21:29:33] <Blackadder> steve8: Yes, if the layer oredr is used and the renderer supports it then you can dictate which order they are rendered
[2006-12-12 21:31:20] <steve8> Think I will go and try a bit of it and see how it goes. Will keep IRc open - and may be back with questions!
[2006-12-12 21:32:11] <Blackadder> steve8: The layer=-5 to 5 was intended for setting the display order for features that sit above each other, such as bridges, embankments, cuttings etc. However the same can equally be used for area ordering
[2006-12-12 21:32:39] <crschmidt> It's unlikely that most GIS-based renderers will support this style of display, however
[2006-12-12 21:36:02] <steve8> Yes.I have used it for ordering roundabouts above/below other roads, etc couldn't remember if level or layer.
[2006-12-12 21:36:51] <Blackadder> steve8: Good luck!
[2006-12-12 21:44:36] <f_mohr> that hamburg problem happend for several german cities
[2006-12-12 21:45:20] <Blackadder> f_mohr: Can you say waht the problem actually is?
[2006-12-12 21:46:01] <f_mohr> someone automatically converted all segments of an area to ways 
[2006-12-12 21:46:27] <Blackadder> f_mohr: ah
[2006-12-12 21:46:44] <f_mohr> ways are ending at junctions or when the segment direction changes
[2006-12-12 21:50:31] <Blackadder> f_mohr: that doesnt sound very helpful. It also suggests someone is running a script to do it automatically? Are there any tags at all applied to these ways?
[2006-12-12 21:53:25] <crschmidt> Blackadder: Given that segments don't show up in the mapnik renderer, and ways do, I don't know that it's entirely unhelpful, it just means that there needs to be a different indication of 'what's left to do' than "is it a way"
[2006-12-12 21:53:32] <Ben_123> Is there any positive points about using the josm function to create nodes and segments automaticall along a gps route?  Becuase there is many of them in wales and east norfolk, and I really find them anoying
[2006-12-12 21:53:32] <f_mohr> created_by=josm and highway= unclassified
[2006-12-12 21:54:37] <[Beta]> Ben_123: if it copied elevation data to nodes, I could see it be a good thing. Otherwise, I can think of none.
[2006-12-12 21:56:27] <Ben_123> [Beta]  I havn't been checking but the most resent ones Ive come across had no data.  I recon this function should be removed, cause it causes a lot of work to clear up and is very inefficent with nodes
[2006-12-12 21:57:21] * crschmidt found the function useful when he was using it, but realizes he's part of the problem ;)
[2006-12-12 21:57:22] <[Beta]> mhmm
[2006-12-12 21:57:48] <crschmidt> I don't understand why I should step away from the 1M accuracy offered by my GPS and go with my 5pixel accuracy I get with my mouse
[2006-12-12 21:59:59] <Ben_123> 5 pixels at wich zoom? and therefore what distance does that equal?
[2006-12-12 22:00:53] <Blackadder> crschmidt: Its not helpful because it makes it more difficult for the person(s) mapping a particular arae to continue their work in a planned manner. If segemnts did not exist then the planning would be done differently. 
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[2006-12-12 22:03:58] <[Beta]> "oops"
[2006-12-12 22:04:08] <f_mohr> the convert waipoints to nodes/segments function isn't bad but it needs some caution
[2006-12-12 22:04:45] * Higgy is guilty of the same as it seemed the logical way get from a gpx trace to nodes/segments
[2006-12-12 22:04:55] <Higgy> also i didn't see anything obvious that told me not to use it
[2006-12-12 22:05:06] <f_mohr> usually i'm using an old josm version to convert my tracks to osm and work with those
[2006-12-12 22:05:43] <f_mohr> especaly if thats a long track in an unmapped area 
[2006-12-12 22:06:01] <Ben_123> It's fine (in my opinion) if people clean them up, but I think they would find it takes longer than just creating a segment and dividing it up along the route
[2006-12-12 22:07:07] <Blackadder> The imporart point is to get the job done and to do it properly. If you convert gps directly to nodes and segs thats fine so long as you then clean it up. Just using the facility to turn a track into a way is in my view rather lazy cartography
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[2006-12-12 22:08:45] <steve8> Lazy cartography/surveying gets shown up when you start using landuse=residential, as I've just found. 
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[2006-12-12 22:09:37] <steve8> Really have to have COMPLETELY surveyed an area before you can apply large area tags. IE schools within predominatly res area have to be treated carefully.
[2006-12-12 22:10:46] <steve8> also found that if you don't re-tag highways from residential to unclassified you can get leftover "abbutters" hanging over roads and looking weird
[2006-12-12 22:10:50] <Blackadder> steve8: Yes, I do the areas last of all when I have some better knowledge of the boundaries
[2006-12-12 22:10:59] <[Beta]> is there a general area tag for a village's footprint; is that landuse=residential, something else maybe ? Or should one break it into parts to fit graveyards, greens, carparks?
[2006-12-12 22:11:52] <Ben_123> footprint?
[2006-12-12 22:12:15] <Blackadder> [Beta]: Thats not well defined in the Map Features set because when Map Features was written we had no area implementation. Its something that needs more work really.
[2006-12-12 22:12:19] <steve8> that is my point. Before you can tag even a small village/town you have got to know ALL the exclusions and have surveyed everything you want to map first
[2006-12-12 22:12:26] <f_mohr> how are overlapping areas handled?
[2006-12-12 22:12:37] <[Beta]> Blackadder, ahh, something maybe I could bring up
[2006-12-12 22:12:44] <f_mohr> like graveyard in an residential area
[2006-12-12 22:12:46] <Blackadder> f_mohr: Depends of the order they are rendered
[2006-12-12 22:13:09] <Blackadder> [Beta]: Its actually on my plate for the New Year
[2006-12-12 22:13:11] <Ben_123> mcn (i think) proposed village greens as a tag, but I think the village green is an inposible area to tag.  Playing fields, playgrounds or recreation areas/dog places in large vilalges or towns is poisble to tag though
[2006-12-12 22:13:14] <[Beta]> Ben, say you zoom out, quite a few maps have a "blob" for the area of the village/town, without including the minor roads, etc
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[2006-12-12 22:15:33] <[Beta]> Blackadder, another Q: My village has a marketplace thats sat on the main road, how would one make it? an area sharing segments with the road?
[2006-12-12 22:16:16] <Blackadder> [Beta]: I'd make a single area for the market place with the highway feature running through it
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[2006-12-12 22:18:14] <[Beta]> there's a "road" around the outside of the carpark, would that be a highway:service, or a highway:secondary (as the road is secondary) Or is it just part of the car park ?
[2006-12-12 22:18:25] <f_mohr> do we have a agreed or proposed tag for place areas? didnt find one when i was looking last time
[2006-12-12 22:18:57] <Blackadder> [Beta]: Sounds like highway=service to me
[2006-12-12 22:19:19] <[Beta]> hmm. if only the default renderings weren't ming
[2006-12-12 22:19:27] <Ben_123> But the secondary would have to contiue threw it, if the same secondry road comes in from one end and leaves at the other
[2006-12-12 22:19:30] <Blackadder> f_mohr: Are you refering to "place" as in a city, town, village etc?
[2006-12-12 22:19:45] <f_mohr> place like market place 
[2006-12-12 22:20:16] <[Beta]> http://www.suemelvin.net/meet38.jpg that's sat on the back of the marketplace/carpark/thing
[2006-12-12 22:20:29] <f_mohr> or trafalgar square
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[2006-12-12 22:21:15] <Blackadder> f_mohr: Sorry, understand you now. I'm going to say I would tag them as landuse=paved since thats the physical description
[2006-12-12 22:21:36] <Blackadder> f_mohr: Then I would also add tagging to describe what the paved area is used for
[2006-12-12 22:22:31] <Blackadder> f_mohr: This distinction between the physical atributes and the descriptive attributes is the format of the revised tagging I'm working on
[2006-12-12 22:24:02] <Dee> 85K trackpoints within 2 miles of my house
[2006-12-12 22:24:20] <Dee> thats what I get for 1pt/s traces... :)
[2006-12-12 22:24:54] <Blackadder> So.. any bets as to when the first "highway" will be mapped on the moon?
[2006-12-12 22:25:37] <Dee> do we have coord space for the moon? :)
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[2006-12-12 22:25:53] <Ben_123> The underlying landuse is going to become very hard to tag fully with the current method.  I want to tag feild=hay/cattle etc, but the segments i would start needing to use would be belonging to 3 or 4 different ways.  Very overly complicated.  To get field boundrys ways built up out of segmetns taht all point the same way will be even harder
[2006-12-12 22:26:03] <chippy> theres a worldwind moon isnt there?
[2006-12-12 22:27:21] <crschmidt> yep
[2006-12-12 22:27:41] <Dee> Ben_123: at that point, I think you have officially run out of ANYTHING else to do and have farr too much free time :)
[2006-12-12 22:27:45] <crschmidt> Moon, Mars, Jupiter
[2006-12-12 22:27:54] <[Beta]> he could plot sheep.
[2006-12-12 22:27:58] <Blackadder> Ben_123: I agree, there is more and more demand for slicing up the landmass into areas as the initial canvas. If we could do that in some way it would make base areas a lot easier to work with
[2006-12-12 22:28:44] <Ben_123> Dee:  Indeed I do, but Theres nothing left to map in my village, ive got all the hedgerows and gates, so I may as well fill them
[2006-12-12 22:28:55] <chippy> is "mixed" landuse retail and industrial, retail and residential or any combination?
[2006-12-12 22:29:13] <Blackadder> Ben_123: So for instance, you would not set individual fields but rather place the hedges on a landuse=cultivated type base canvas
[2006-12-12 22:29:28] <Ben_123> I think the underlying landuse should be a different layer that operates relative to the other layers, but I would just fill areas with a colour that is relative to a tag
[2006-12-12 22:29:58] <Blackadder> chippy: I set up mixed as a simply way of tagging something that didnt fit the other categories, but its not ideal
[2006-12-12 22:30:05] <Ben_123> Blackadder:  fields may have different hedges/walls/fences/ lack of hedge etcetc, they need to be defines seperately
[2006-12-12 22:30:49] <Blackadder> Ben_123: Agreed, but the underlying landmass is just a cultimated canvas
[2006-12-12 22:30:58] <Ben_123> a segment may belong to  a hedge, and then the field either side, as well as waterways that run down the hedgerow, and gates/styles that lie in the hedgerow...very confusing
[2006-12-12 22:31:20] <Blackadder> Ben_123: All those should be seperate because they are all seperate features
[2006-12-12 22:31:23] <Ben_123> culimated?
[2006-12-12 22:31:29] <Blackadder> sorry, cultivated
[2006-12-12 22:32:07] <Ben_123> the hedge grows over the stream, and is the border for the neighbouring to fields though
[2006-12-12 22:32:13] <Ben_123> two*
[2006-12-12 22:34:55] <Blackadder> hedge and stream are seperate features unless you make a new feature called a hedged_stream ;-)
[2006-12-12 22:35:17] <Ben_123> Sorry, i mean there seperate tags, but share the same way
[2006-12-12 22:38:40] <Blackadder> Ben_123: Or reuse the same segments but have three ways
[2006-12-12 22:39:12] <Ben_123> yeah, but thats the problem, you can only reuse segments so many times before it all becomes nothing more than a mess
[2006-12-12 22:41:50] <Ben_123> currently I save the filed types in a .png seperate by just printscreening the map and keeping that as a note until a later date, and this is the easiest way to store the infomation
[2006-12-12 22:46:19] <Dee> hmmm
[2006-12-12 22:46:38] <Blackadder> Ben_123: Yes, understanding overlapping ways is not well supported
[2006-12-12 22:46:46] <Dee> ive added roads to OSM (not names yet) that not even then hants cc site knows about
[2006-12-12 22:47:17] <Blackadder> Dee: Shhhhhh, these walls have ears ;-)
[2006-12-12 22:47:38] <Ben_123> hang on...if hants cc dont no about it...then who organised there creation and tarmacking!
[2006-12-12 22:48:18] <Dee> exactly
[2006-12-12 22:48:24] <chippy> lol
[2006-12-12 22:48:38] <Dee> it is a very new estate (no other online maps have it yet
[2006-12-12 22:49:06] <Dee> and stupidly, i noted down the names, but they are saved on my car pc
[2006-12-12 22:49:59] <Blackadder> The devlopers are responsible for the roads until they are "adopted" by the cc. They are built to the highways stanrdards but the cc has no involvement until they have been built and handed over
[2006-12-12 22:50:29] <Ben_123> but dont the roads need consent before they can be created?
[2006-12-12 22:50:57] <Blackadder> Ben_123: Yes, they will have been through planning etc and have to following the Highways standrads for design and construction
[2006-12-12 22:51:30] <Ben_123> Isn't bureaucracy fun...
[2006-12-12 22:51:32] <Blackadder> The devloper is also responsible for the naming and putting up the street signs
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[2006-12-12 22:52:45] <Dee> after asking the council
[2006-12-12 22:53:16] <Blackadder> Dee: And Royal Mail
[2006-12-12 22:53:19] <Dee> the approach road just says "End: TRANS ADOPTED/UNADOPTED SECTION OF ROAD"
[2006-12-12 22:54:17] <Dee> http://maintainedhighways.hants.gov.uk/details.asp?segment=09U521_ML_05&road=locke%20road&district=EASTLEIGH
[2006-12-12 22:55:08] <Blackadder> Dee: Sounds like Work In Progress to me
[2006-12-12 22:56:54] <Dee> yeah
[2006-12-12 22:57:06] <Dee> (ignore the OS grid refs ont hat page :)
[2006-12-12 22:57:16] <Higgy> there's a road near me that doesn't appear on google/multimap
[2006-12-12 22:57:20] <Higgy> it's on osm though :)
[2006-12-12 22:57:25] <Dee> :)
[2006-12-12 22:57:35] <Blackadder> Higgy: I think we all have a few of those :-)
[2006-12-12 22:57:46] <Higgy> heh
[2006-12-12 22:58:02] <Higgy> i've been doing a bit in brum, too
[2006-12-12 22:58:31] <Higgy> how easy/otherwise have you found logging in the city?
[2006-12-12 23:00:09] <Blackadder> Higgy: City centre is a waste of time really. Outside the inner ringroad though is not too bad and outside the middle ringroad is fine.
[2006-12-12 23:01:00] <Higgy> cool
[2006-12-12 23:01:06] <Higgy> i got a bit by st paul's
[2006-12-12 23:01:11] <Blackadder> Higgy: Where have you added stuff recently?
[2006-12-12 23:01:15] <Blackadder> ah, cool
[2006-12-12 23:01:29] <Blackadder> I did a bit around there before, probably segs and no ways?
[2006-12-12 23:01:29] <Higgy> got a bit there
[2006-12-12 23:01:34] <Higgy> + temple row
[2006-12-12 23:01:39] <Higgy> yeh, there was a bit
[2006-12-12 23:02:15] <Higgy> i tagged the roads that come off colmore row towards the queensway
[2006-12-12 23:02:22] <Blackadder> neat
[2006-12-12 23:03:08] <Higgy> but i didn't get much of a good trace around there to add anything
[2006-12-12 23:03:27] <Blackadder> I need to get an old map for the city centre so that we can get the streets aligned properly. Did that for Manchester and it worked well.
[2006-12-12 23:03:45] <Blackadder> Higgy: No, its all a bit closed in around there.
[2006-12-12 23:04:22] <Blackadder> Anyone have anymore mapping questions, if not I'll wind up the meeting log?
[2006-12-12 23:05:02] =-= Blackadder has changed the topic to ``the UTF8 gods are frowning - http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-December/009431.html
[2006-12-12 23:05:30] <Higgy> city/town roads that aren't residential smaller than b roads... unclassified?
[2006-12-12 23:05:42] <Blackadder> yep
[2006-12-12 23:06:02] <Blackadder> Or service if they are not part of the obvious network
[2006-12-12 23:06:27] <steve8> All from me.Ta for ideas. Have done most of P Bar residential as areas while lurking. Cheers
[2006-12-12 23:06:28] <Ben_123> i don't understand the service tag, why is it called service?
[2006-12-12 23:06:48] <Blackadder> Ben_123: because it "services" something
[2006-12-12 23:07:14] <Ben_123> shorely every road services something
[2006-12-12 23:08:07] <Blackadder> True. But for instance, you used to see a lot of access routes to shopping centres etc called "service road" so hence why it was used.
[2006-12-12 23:08:41] <Blackadder> Its the sort of place the delivery trucks go rather than us shoppers
[2006-12-12 23:08:47] <Ben_123> yeah, It would be approprate for that
[2006-12-12 23:09:07] <Blackadder> I use if for industrial estates too where unclassified seems inappropriate
[2006-12-12 23:10:07] <Ben_123> well theres a lot that are to small to be unclassified, and are there to link to something like a carpark.  Whats a suggested tag for that?
[2006-12-12 23:10:39] <Blackadder> same, I use service for those too
[2006-12-12 23:12:15] <Ben_123> deosnt seem quite right for the examples im thinking of.  Theres some really small streets in towcester that are used to get to public places
[2006-12-12 23:12:26] <Blackadder> ok, I'm outa here. Enjoy your mapping :-)