Talk:Proposed features/Charging station
Discuss Proposed features/Charging station here:
- 1 Duplicates fuel:electricity=yes
- 2 additional tags for plugs and power source
- 3 comments on additional tags for plugs and power source
- 4 Capacity
- 5 Payment
- 6 Number of simultaniously power
- 7 comments on potential OSM license issues
- 8 Amenity namespace
- 9 RWE
- 10 New charging device fulfills standard
- 11 OpenChargeMap database is live
- 12 Battery switch / replacement stations
- 13 Rendering
- 14 Plug Style / Data Sharing
- 15 Rival proposal =
- 16 More plug types, charger "levels", amperage, etc.
- 17 Types of vehicles
- 18 Open Charge Map Licensing
- 19 Plugs vs. sockets
- 20 Other Chargers
- 21 Voltage, Current, Power, different sockets...
Doesn't this allready exist? See amenity:fuel look for fuel:electricity=yes + often with fuel:others=no
Greetings, --Computerfreaked 15:09, 22 September 2010 (BST)
My response to Kevin Sharpe's E-Mail: "Hi! I'd really like to work on this, but i am newbie at osm. I made the proposal, because it didn't make sense for me to map a charging station as 'fuel'. Especially the different plug-types, voltages and currents aren't considered in the way they should be. Because of the fact, that i am a newbie at osm, i wanted to see the response of the experienced users first. I don't know, what the next steps are, but i think we should improve the proposal before we start the voting or map that way.
Kind regards Mario" --Rockhuhn 10:41, 15 October 2010 (BST)
I want to describe the kinds of plugs, vor example
- Why to repeat the charging_station part and not just use plug=*? Joosep-Georg 21:24, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- I propose to drop voltage and amperage tagging as this is quite irrelevant to the plain car user and use plug-specific tagging like plug:type=yes (as charging stations may have more than one plug, and as we know using semicolon may be problematic for parsers). Joosep-Georg 22:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Made similar proposal to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:power_supply Joosep-Georg 22:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Links for the plugs: [Länderübersicht Steckertypen, Netzspannungen und -frequenzen] [Stromtankstelle] [Mennekes (Unternehmen)]
I want to add additional information, if the source of power is guaranted. I know a station, where the operator is a solar panel company and the panels will be used for the station. But i agree, that this information can not be set often for sure.
we will need to define whether the charging station is one/three phase or DC.
we also need to include the current supplied because "cee_blue" means it's a 200-250V supply... however, the current ratings (typically 16A, 32A, 63A and 125A) are distinguished by the diameters of the connector housing not the colour.
I also worry that "cee_blue" will not be understood... in the UK I know exactly what you mean but does everyone? Should we really use something more formal like "IEC_60309_BLUE"
--Kevin Sharpe 22:23, 14 October 2010 (BST)
I agree with Kevin that e.g. "cee_red" needs further definition for current/connector-size. Thought of something like this:
charging_station:plug=cee_red -> charging_station:plug=IEC_60309_16A_3PNE
charging_station:plug=schuco_f -> charging_station:plug=CEE_7/4 or charging_station:plug=Type_f (Type C for example has no 'SCHUtzKOntakt'/Protective Contact)
We need pictures here !!! --Lulu-Ann 12:31, 18 October 2010 (BST)
The Ampere (for example at cee red is sometimes 16 Ampere or 32 Ampere, so i wouldn't integrate this in the plug value.
We could use exakt technical values:
- schuko: charging_station:plug=CEE-7-4
- cee red: charging_station:plug=CEE-3P-N-PE-6h
- mennekes: charging_station:plug=VDE-AR-E-2623-2-2
but this values are very hard to insert these correctly in osm editors or we use more readable values, which describe the plug corectly. For the more readable plug values, i have no ideas. --Okilimu 23:01, 19 May 2011 (BST)
- I propose value type2 for the Mennekes/DKE/VDE plug () and chademo for the CHAdeMO plug. Joosep-Georg 21:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
This tag won't be enough, because some charging stations (like EnBW charging stations in Karlsruhe) offer more than one connector type (mennekes + schuko). Additionally it would be nice to specify whether you need your own cable or whether the station has a fixed cable. --Gabelstock 15:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well, there could be wheelchair accessible parking spaces right next to the charging station, and if the mappers there want to get rid of their prefix, too... ?! --Lulu-Ann (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Some other important things will be the keys payment and opening_times, the number of plugs and the information, if a registration is required. --Rockhuhn 12:16, 15 October 2010 (BST)
I would use, for example: payment:rwe_contractid=yes or simplier payment:rwe=yes and every other company. We have the very bad situation, that every power company and even city power company, but its very important to add these tag, because without a contract of the appropriate company, you get no power from the station. --Okilimu 23:01, 19 May 2011 (BST)
There are also many operators who provide the use for free by now, but where some kind of authentication is used. Even here in the region of upper austria, I can find several different types of authentication:
- You have to call a telephone number, then the charging station shutter gets unlocked (used by Wels Strom).
- You need to send a short message by telephone and receive an answer containing a code that you have to enter into the terminal (used by Energie AG).
- You need to insert your debit card into the terminal to unlock the charging station, but this is just for identification, not for payment, because the charging is for free (used by Linz Strom).
- You need to have a member card provided by the operator.
- I guess in the future, there will be further mechanisms, like NFC and similar techniques.
--Silwol 19:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Is there such thing as a capacity:car:payment for when you need to pay, probably depending on vehicle, for access to the charging spots (e.g. inside a parking:multi-storey ). This is especially important, since e.g. in Germany legal restrictions allow non-utility operators only to charge by time and not by the amount of power consumed. -- Bardo Nelgen 12:25, 15 February 2013 (CET)
Number of simultaniously power
comments on potential OSM license issues
I've been discussing the CC-BY-SA and proposed ODbl license on legal-talk. It seems to me that both these licenses prevent third parties from using the charge point data that we enter into OSM. Obviously, this will do nothing to address the fact that we have more than twenty proprietary databases of charge points in existence today. Those databases will certainly never contribute to OSM if it's restrictive.
I would therefore like to suggest that we consider licensing the charge point data under the PDDL license;
and use the OpenChargeMap.org URL to access the database which will be managed on sourceforge. Then, we can add the data to OSM automatically and everyone is happy.
--Kevin Sharpe 19:08, 19 October 2010 (BST)
- If we start to put each new feature for this reason to another database, then we don't have anything left in OSM. I know enough third parties that are able to read and follow such an easy short license and use OSM data. If they have a problem with our license, your third parties can go and bye their data from TeleAtlas and NavTeq. We are crowdsourcers. We don't need other databases to contribute to ours. --Lulu-Ann 13:51, 22 October 2010 (BST)
Lulu-Ann if you start adding charge points directly to OSM without the support of the commercial vendors then you will simply become the twenty seventh orphaned database. I'm trying to build an open resource that everyone can use and the feedback from legal-talk is that the OSM license is not a good fit for this data. We intend to proceed with the OpenChargeMap database and I will endeavour to export the charge point data to OSM on a regular basis. I would encourage you to contribute to the OpenChargeMap database to ensure that the needs of OSM are met. --Kevin Sharpe 14:31, 23 October 2010 (BST)
- OSM started as the last map on earth to use, and it is becoming the first one. Probably the contributors report defect charging stations much faster to OSM than the operators. I contribute to what I think is best. Da könnte ja jeder kommen, und wollen, daß nun auch Gaststätten, Toilettenhäuschen und Ampeln in eigene Datenbanken sollen *lach* Lulu-Ann
For the record, the number of Electric Vehicle Charge Point databases just exceeded 56 (http://sourceforge.net/projects/openchargemap/forums/forum/1250135/topic/3889257) --Kevin Sharpe
I think charging stations should be mapped like any other tags in OSM and under the same license. To map it under another licence will create the 57th charging-database. --Rockhuhn 16:01, 19 May 2011 (BST)
This is surely a place you want to go to, but if charging station is mapped as an amenity, it can not be combined on a node with other amenities like fuel. --Lulu-Ann 12:29, 18 October 2010 (BST)
German charging station operator RWE offered to send lists of charging stations regularily. Contact person: --Lulu-Ann 11:45, 30 October 2010 (BST)
Desire and reality are unfortunately far apart from each other. Many of the RWE charging station still integrated in OSM are unfortunately only in planning. --HeinerS 10:22, 15 September 2011 (BST)
I found some of the imported stations beeing 10 kilometers off. --chris66 12:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
New charging device fulfills standard
- New charging standard: CHAdeMO http://www.epyonpower.com/About/News/Epyon_Becomes_First_to_Complete_Certification_of_Multi-Port_EV_Fast_Chargers.aspx - tagg this "chademo". Lulu-Ann
OpenChargeMap database is live
The OCM database is now ready for developer review. We have included some sample data from 1,000 Charge Points and will add the data from ten's of thousand's once we have completed the review. The database has a simple attribution license and we would love to provide a data feed to OSM so that it can display Electric Vehicle charge points.
Why still another further platform? Isn't it time to integrate the existing charging stations in OSM and arrange an useful specialized platform on OSM basis?--HeinerS 09:38, 15 September 2011 (BST)
OCM has traction with 8823 Charging Stations already and 15 apps/websites using the data. The OCM community would like to find a way of sharing the data with OSM as discussed here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenChargeMap --Kevin Sharpe 14:56, 21 September 2012 (BST)
Battery switch / replacement stations
In addition to charging stations, there are also battery switch stations (see Better Place solution or Wikipedia entry). I have no idea if this can be part of "charging station", or requires a new key just for itself... --adrukh 12:26, 9 June 2011 (BST)
I would take for example:
charging_station:type=fuel as standard, and doesn't need to add explizit and
charging_station:type=battery_switch for this kind.
But it belongs to a charging station generally, in my opinion. --Okilimu 05:49, 8 June 2011 (BST)
I suggest to render switching stations and charging stations differently. A cable with a plug implies waiting for a recharge, relevant to charging stations next to parking spaces. A switching station is more of a stop-n-go place (like a gas station), and should not imply waiting. I was thinking about a combination of a battery sign (maybe just +/-) with two circling arrows (meaning switch). --adrukh 12:26, 9 June 2011 (BST)
I made a draft-image for the Rendering. Therefore i took the image proposed on Wikipedia for the international standard. Maybe someone's got time to make a better one or has a better idea? --Rockhuhn 13:00, 4 August 2011 (BST)
- Yes, I would prefer to have a female connector, like in reality, please. Lulu-Ann
- Your draft-image, as a small rendered icon, still look like a fuel symbol. Using a female connector still strengthens this impression. According to my estimate the plug would have to be a little bit larger. What's about a big plug in a charging station with only a piece of cable, like the apps-symbol on lemnet but without the car-symbol? --HeinerS 10:57, 15 September 2011 (BST)
Having a sign that looks like a gas station sign might be misleading - a "charging spot" can be as simple as a wall socket. The LEMnet visualisation (based on google maps) displays a mere socket instead (a circle with a few dots in it) and I think that is all that it needs. The charging station image may be useful in some occasions however - especially the fast-charge stations (especially Chademo-chargers) need some real infrastructure. Moreover they are always Case C with the charger cable fixed on the station to be plugged into the car. Lexikos 14:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Maybe we could find a way for the icon to tell, if e.g. the offering is for free (quite some stations in Germany, currently) or e.g. requires a parking ticket (where local prices of € +4,–/hour could make for an expensive charge…). --Bardo Nelgen 11:33, 15 February 2013 (CET)
Plug Style / Data Sharing
To be useful this needs the "plug type" and voltage as a required field. And the issue of synchronization with external databases needs real attention Brycenesbitt 00:28, 7 August 2011 (BST)
Rival proposal =
More plug types, charger "levels", amperage, etc.
The North American SAE J1772 plug should be added, as should a few NEMA plug types. A few "Level 2" charging stations operated under the ChargePoint network have begun popping up in my neighborhood in Saint Paul, Minnesota. According to their station locator tool, the stations have fairly standard NEMA 5-20R sockets for 120V charging (it's very similar to the normal wall socket in the U.S., though it accepts both standard 15A plugs as well as 20A plugs with one blade rotated 90 degrees). 208/240V charging at 30A is available with the SAE J1772 plug. Different charging "levels" are in various stages of being standardized. Looks like there are both AC and DC charging technologies out there, various voltages (and quirky ways of describing them -- the 208/240V split-phase power for AC Level 2 charging, for instance), and the charging "levels" may change over time (it appears that the original Level 2 was 32A max, while a 2009 update to the standard raised that to 80A). This could all get pretty complicated... —Mulad 21:43, 8 April 2012 (BST)\
- A bit over a year later, I'll mention that EV charging stations have been expanding very rapidly across the US (as I presume they are elsewhere in the world). Recargo estimates there are over 20,000 in the US and Canada as of May 2013, the majority of which are Level 2 chargers in the 240 volt range. A new player on the scene is Tesla, who have introduced their Supercharger network, which will be free for owners of their cars. They don't seem to give detailed information on voltage or amperage, only saying that it can go up to 120 kW (several times most others), though power delivery can vary depending on weather conditions. Tesla has their own proprietary connector type. —Mulad (talk) 15:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
This charging point data will be useful if it allows an electric vehicle operator to quickly determine if their car will charge at the station. Preferably, this would be done by the vehicle's NAV system without any need for human determination of suitability. Setting the OSM app to record a charging station at the push of a button would be the quickest way to populate this data by direct verification. A user could input their vehicle's plug type and charging levels, then record the fact that they'd charged in a particular manner (levels 1,2,3 seems the easiest from a user's perspective).
Another layer of complexity for this puzzle is the fact that many public charging stations require an access key or card to allow usage. There is an effort to silo EV users into a particular charging network through the costs and complexity of maintaining separate accounts.
I think the case of a membership charger network is covered by
authentication:membership_card=* as mentioned on the main article (not sure if that was there when you expressed this concern). —Larry Gilbert 01:06, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Types of vehicles
Why do the proposed types of vehicles not match the types used elsewhere? Why "bike" instead of "bicycle"? Why "car" instead of "motorcar"? Why "truck" instead of "hgv"? And why "scooter" instead of "moped"?
Open Charge Map Licensing
It would be great to be able to import electric vehicle charging stations from Open Charge Map into OSM. Kevin Sharpe has suggested that he would like to see this too (see above) but I am concerned over the OCM licensing and whether the data imported will be compliant with the OSM license.
The OCM database is licensed under ODbL (or will soon be so) but the contents are a mixture of copyrighted data and data that is open. OCM do not make it clear what the open data is licensed under.
My concern is for contamination of OSM with copyrighted data. With the database a mix it would not be difficult to imagine contamination occurring in error.
I am hopeful these issues can be resolved but as things are my concerns stand.
Just for clarity... I am a supporter of OCM and would like to see any licensing issues between OCM and OSM resolved satisfactorily to allow for two-way data exchange.
Plugs vs. sockets
For many types of plugs/sockets, it is only possible to have a socket on the charging station. This is the case with socket:schuko, socket:cee_blue, socket:cee_red_16a, etc. These are used for all kinds of equipment, and the sockets (e.g. in a wall in a home) deliver energy to the plugs (which is attached to the equipment via a cable). With type1 and type2 (and possibly type3, I don't know), the charging station may contain a socket of this type or a cable with a plug attached. For stations that have a cable with a plug, the plug can be connected directly to the socket in the car. For this, the socket in the car has to be of the correct type. For stations that have a socket, the car owner will have a cable with a plug in each end. One of the plugs fits into the socket on the car, and the other to the socket in the charging station. For example, a Nissan Leaf has a type1 socket, and can therefore not charge from a charging station with a type2 plug. However, if the charging station has a type2 socket (which is the coming European standard), a Nissan Leaf may charge from it using a cable with a type1 plug in one end and a type2 plug in the other.
It is therefore necessary to distinguish between plug and socket. E.g.
- socket:type1=* - number of Type1 sockets
- plug:type1=* - number of Type1 sockets
- socket:type2=* - number of Type2 sockets
- plug:type2=* - number of Type2 sockets
Alternatively, since I know many people mix up plugs and sockets (even in several languages), it may be less error prone, but less correct to use:
- socket:type1=* - number of Type1 sockets
- cable:type1=* - number of Type1 sockets
- socket:type2=* - number of Type2 sockets
- cable:type2=* - number of Type2 sockets
Copying this over from the tag talk (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station#Other_Chargers)
I'd suggest adding the following:
socket:type1_combo (J1772 "Frankenplug" w/ DC charging)
socket:tesla_roadster (Tesla Roadster plug. Not [as far as I know] available as a for-a-fee charging station, but since I have seen some at public places, I feel this should also be included)
socket:tesla_supercharger (Tesla supercharger. For use only on their supercharger stations.)
socket:tesla_standard (Standard plug, found on post-roadster cars.)
Supercharger and standard should be separate although the plug is the same since the supercharger connectors are DC-enabled and in all cases official (by Tesla themselves.)
socket:magne_charge (obsolete, but still installed in some places. For the sake of completeness)
Some places also offer high-amperage receptacles. Of these, the NEMA 14-50 is by far the most used to my knowledge. The TT-30 is also used (mostly at RV parks).
For these, you could use:
Voltage, Current, Power, different sockets...
I've some problems to tag CHAdeMO chargers. This DC chargers does not have a special voltage and current limitation itself. It's dependend on the battery which will loaded. The limit is defined by power in kW. How can I tag e.g. a CHAdeMO with a limit of 11kW or 20kW or 40kW? Maybe it's better to use kW? Maybe it's better to use generally powerlimit instead of current?
Yeah, a special tag for the power output is a really good idea. Many charging stations provide different sockets with a different power supply. Nowadays the max power supply of a station is THE criterion while choosing where to charge. Major sites like http://www.goingelectric.de https://de.chargemap.com https://www.plugshare.com/ use this as the main characteristic to distinguish between locations.
like Pbkawph I suggest to use