Talk:Proposed features/Education 2.0

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Discussion

Please, feel free to leave comments here!

"education=subdivision" should be faculty.

The word "center" should be "centre" throughout. OSM uses British English.

--Richard (talk) 12:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

  • I want tag education=subdivision to be applicable to any education facility, even for schools and kindergarten. I'm not sure whether it would be good to use "education=faculty" for parts of schools and other institutions. There are also lesser subdivisions in some countries. For example, there is faculty subdivision called kafedra in Russia, as far as I know in USA universities also has "school" as bigger than faculty subdivision. I've replaced "center" with "centre", thank you for note.--Keder (talk) 13:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

UK Schools project

The UK recently focused on mapping schools and encountered a number of problems. It would be good to read through the January-March 2016 mailing list threads and see if your proposal can solve the issues discussed. Here are just a few of the threads

Spelling of programme

OSM standard is to use the British English terms by default, so it should be spelled programme, not program. Rorym (talk) 11:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

  • I have fixed spelling in tags, thank you--Keder (talk) 07:58, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Excelent proposal

This is an excellent proposal! I agree with it. What can we do to submit it to the community approval? There is a lack the tags to non formal education in the current tag system. ---Wille (talk)

  • Thank you. I've started voting, you can participate. --Keder (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Comments on the proposal: college, university, school, training

I missed the RFC on this, so these comments may be a little late.

education=college|university

education=college — Institutions that provide vocational training. For higher education institutions use education=university.

In my view this is problematic, c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College. "College" is a very ambiguous terms. It would be better to call this education=vocational

education=university — Higher education institutions.

This is also problematic, as universities are only one type of higher education institution. It would be better to have this as "education=tertiary". (Bjohas (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2016 (UTC))

Discussion

  • I will answer to you and some voters as well. Maybe I was not clear about it but education=* tag is not the same as education_level=* tag. education=* tag describes certain types of education institutions in the country that considered by educational system of same type. For example almost any western country has such things as kindergarten and anyone knows the difference between kindergarten and school. So "kindergarten" is the role of this institution in particular educational system. Some educational facilities like schools can have several levels of education and this set of levels can vary from school to school. Each educational system can have its own set of education=* tags depending on what types of educational institutions people of this concrete country recognize. So if only type of higher educational institution (university) is not enough you can easily add another.
  • So do you mean that the value of the tag depends just on the naming convention? I.e. this is a "free value", see below? In that case the descriptive text should be changed. Bjohas (talk) 09:15, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

education=school

The proposal fragments the school tag too early. It proposes education=school, education=elementary_school and education=high_school on the same hierarchy level, while elementary and high are refinements of education=school. Thus a data consumer just to warn a driver of the presence of children has to evaluate three values instead of one. Further, elementary vs. high are AmE-centric terms, with Highschool being a false friend for non-american speakers, confusing it with tertiary institutions. Further the fragmentation is unnecessary since the education level is proposed as a separate tag anyway.--Polarbear w (talk) 10:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

  • I agree. The example provide is good, and illustrates the issue. Also see comment about "free" vs. "restricted" values below. Bjohas (talk) 10:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

education_service

education_service:training=yes, education_service:practical_training=yes, education_service:lectures=yes

Also problematic, for a number of reasons.

  • Few institutions would self-describe like this. The division between practical vs. theoretical training is not seen like this by education professionals, and I would suggest that the difference between "practice-focussed" and "theory-focussed" education already captured in vocational vs. higher.
  • Also, the use of "education_service:training" as "Most general tag to indicate that facility provides educational services." is out of line with general use. Universities would not descrive themselves as provding training. Similarly education professionals/research/literature sees "education" distinct from "training": Training being short term, process oriented (e.g. "training on software") or in specific domains (such as sports), while education is longer term (e.g. 1-3 year systematic programmes). For example, the use of "teacher training" is no longer current in many education system, and has been replaced by "teacher education".

What was the tag supposed to capture? (Bjohas (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2016 (UTC))

discussion

  • Higher education != theoretical education as student there usually also gain some practical skills like laboratory work, right experiment setup etc. And in vocational there is a lot of theory (e.g. in my country driving training always means learning how you should behave on the road, traffic laws).
  • education_service:training=yes means that educational services is only additional for facility, there could not be education_service:training=yes with education=university or any other education=* object as those facilities are supposed to provide education services. This tag is used on facilities that usually do not provide education but in this particular situation they do. However, my native language is not English, so I could have picked wrong word for this service type and I am open to suggestions.
  • So should the descriptive text be changed to reflect this? Is it ok to change the proposal itself at this stage? Bjohas (talk) 09:18, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

education_level:higher=yes

education_level:higher=yes

This might be better as "education_level:tertiary" in line with primary/secondary. (Bjohas (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2016 (UTC))

discussion

Set of education_levels is the matter of discussion for each particular education system. I've chosen those levels that most familiar for common people. There is isced:level tag for more strict classification. Isn't issuing diplomas something that universities is always supposed to do? Anyway this system is extensible, you can always add additional tags later. --Keder (talk) 16:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)----

You can distinguish different educational levels for schools etc by subtagging the existing scheme, there is no need to replace the established high-level tags. The German-speaking countries just did that recently for amenity=kindergarten. --Polarbear w (talk) 20:07, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

education_degree:diploma:*=yes

Degrees should also have

education_degree:diploma:*=yes

as many higher education institutions offer diplomas. (Bjohas (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2016 (UTC))


"restricted" vs. "free values"

It would be good to be clear what values are "restrictred", e.g. key=value, where key=A, values can only be 1,2,3,.... vs. "free values" where key=B, value=anything, or value:anything=anything. I have tried to extract data from OSM (e.g. on transport links) and due to the great variation in tagging, this can be really difficult. In my view, there should be a clear way of extracting all education institutions with mandatory tags, so that you can answer the following questions (e.g. overpass queries): "Show me all secondary schools in this area?" E.g. mandatory tagging would be

education=* ["free value"]
education_level:preschool|primary|secondary|tertiary|other=yes|no [where at least one of the five ":" need to be present]

so that you can get all education institutions that are primary|secondary|tertiary|other. Other values for education_level:something are permitted, but one of the above needs to be present. Bjohas (talk) 09:25, 19 July 2016 (UTC)