Talk:Proposed features/Shop=bakery,confectionery

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Much has already been discussed in this thread on the OSM Tagging mail list: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-June/013630.html Please read it to avoid duplication here. Further clarification and discussion of issues in that thread is appropriate here.

I did consider adding wedding=yes/no/only to the "shop=bakery tags to use in common" section to identify those shops specializing in wedding cakes and other baked goods for weddings. I did not after considering that would lead to adding christening=yes/no and many similar tags for shops that specialize in those occasions. A point can be reached where sub categories become clutter for most rather than useful. I don't know if this would cross that boundary, but thought it might. A user looking for a wedding bakery shop, or other special occasion shop, would likely be planning well ahead, would likely use other sources than an OSM map to identify such shops - but use OSM to get their location, and would be likely to follow a webpage=* tag. A higher proportion of wedding and other special occasion bakeries have a webpage than bakeries as a whole. So the high value would not be in adding a wedding=yes/no tag, but in seeing a webpage= tag is populated for the shop.--CS Mur (talk) 18:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

bread-bakery?

Nice part on confectionery, but "bread-bakery"? This sounds at least united-states-centric, if not strange. A bakery is clearly a place where bread (and other stuff) is baked, so I'd definitely include this into bakery. My guess is, that 99% (if not more) of all objects currently tagged as shop=bakery do actually offer bread, many of them as a principal article. IMHO, if you don't have bakeries (any more) that make traditional bread, it would be more logical to add bread=no or sell:bread=no to your bakeries, than to do it the other way round. --Dieterdreist (talk) 23:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

From my research, English speaking residents of the U.S., the U.K., Canada, and Australia first call, search for, and group any shop with bakery goods as a bakery; then use subgroups such as cake, pastry, bread, and various other types. In the U.S., about 1 in 20 of the bakeries in the business directories or turned up by web searches are bakeries that primarily sell "staple" bread. The other 19 in 20 either do not sell staple bread or sell it as a portion of their business. I did not distinguish between these two later two cases when counting, but my guesstamate is 15 or more of 20 do not sell staple bread. In Britain, Canada, and Australia (where I did not do as detailed counts) the bakeries that do not sell staple bread out number the other types, and bakeries that primarily sell staple breads might be 1 in 10.
From the mailing list discussion and research, staple bread bakeries have much greater importance in several parts (maybe all) of continental Europe and some other parts of the world. These cultures have distinct words for bread and non-bread bakeries but few or no commonly used terms that group the two types and so would not typically call, search for, or group them together. That would expect them to be marked differently on the map. The regulatory environments of some of these cultures enforce this split. Splitting bakeries at the shop level into bread and non-bread is really is a nod to the taggers and users of these cultures; one that the US/UK/Can/Aus would have little problem with. In my view, the layout of tags should be as intuitive and easy for all cultures, so as to encourage use of the tags and avoid mis-tagging by taggers and make users enthusiastic about using OSM. Separating the staple bread bakeries from non-staple bread (or mixed) bakeries at the shop level is a compromise to improve other cultures' use of OSM with a change which the US/UK/Can/Aus cultures can understand and adapt to easily. Further splits at the shop entail far greater complexity for the US/UK/Can/Aus whose shops often carry some combination of the bakery goods types. Distinguishing between types is still useful for US/UK/Can/Aus users as additional information on the basic bakery, thus the "types of bakery goods" tags. It avoids US/UK/Can/Aus taggers doing shop=cake_bakery;pastry_bakery;cookie_bakery;pie_bakery tags (which will never be rendered well); or putting multiple shop=* nodes on most bakeries.
From a current use standpoint, the US/UK/Can/Aus are putting every bakery under shop=bakery. The others are putting staple bread bakeries under shop=bakery and, I think, putting all other bakeries under shop=confectionery. The current tags and English descriptions are misleading or wrong for the US/UK/Can/Aus and do not meet a need of the others. I suspect some taggers are avoiding tagging bakeries because the problem. This also makes OSM a very unfriendly place for travelers and other users. Hopefully we can correct this.--CS Mur (talk) 04:02, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The idea of changing the tag on basis of usage in small number of countries not appropriate, try editor presets instead. Our standard is to use British English, not American / Canadian / Australian English. Both of my great-aunts were confectioners: they owned and ran shops which sold cakes, and other fancy goods. Locally in the English East Midlands we have mapped many shops of a local chain which are called "Birds the Confectioners", which sells cakes. I would suggest that if you want to make any distinction use something like shop=sweet for sweet shops and choclatiers (although I think the latter have more in common with proper confectioners). Altering the tagging to suit one group of countries with an impoverished tradition of artisan bread making seems to be the wrong way round. Furthermore it is relatively easy to provide a suitable preset in JOSM and Potlatch to circumvent mis-understanding by North American users. SK53 (talk) 22:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Let me know if we agree in two areas:
1) A shop that sells sweets and chocolates is usually distinct from a shop that sells baked goods such as pastries and cakes. Shops that sell both exist, but are rare. One is more likely to find pastries in a bakery than in a sweets shop in the U.K. (as well as all the other English-speaking nations I studied).
2) We should use modern British as the model; not the English of Chaucer, not the English of Shakespeare, and not the English of a generation ago.
I had studied the U.K. for my proposal and used several British conventions, but decided I could do better, so delved considerably deeper for my following comments.
I assume the Oxford dictionaries are the standard for best British usage; if not please direct me to another source. The following definitions are from the Oxford British and World Dictionary “The world's most trusted dictionaries” http://oxforddictionaries.com/ . I have only listed the noun definitions, and have done so in their entirety.
Definition of baker
[noun]
a person whose trade is making and selling bread and cakes.
often with modifier: an oven for a particular purpose:a waffle baker
Definition of bakery
a place where bread and cakes are sold
[as modifier] bakery items
[mass noun] baked goods such as bread and cakes: a table overflowing with home-made bakery and wine
Definition of cake
[noun]
1. an item of soft sweet food made from a mixture of flour, fat, eggs, sugar, and other ingredients, baked and sometimes iced or decorated:a fruit cake
[as modifier] a cake shop
[mass noun] a mouthful of cake
(the cake) British: the amount of money or assets available to be divided up or shared:you have not received a fair slice of the education cake
2. an item of savoury food formed into a flat round shape, and typically baked or fried:a starter of goat’s cheese and potato cakes
a flattish compact mass of something, especially soap:a cake of soap
Definition of candy
[noun] (plural candies) (also sugar candy)
[mass noun] North American sweets; confectionery:[as modifier] a candy bar
[count noun] pink and yellow candies
chiefly British: sugar crystallized by repeated boiling and slow evaporation: making candy at home is not difficult—the key is cooking the syrup to the right temperature
Definition of chocolate
[noun]
[mass noun] a food in the form of a paste or solid block made from roasted and ground cacao seeds, typically sweetened and eaten as confectionery:a bar of chocolate as modifiera chocolate biscuit
[count noun] a sweet made of or covered with chocolate:a box of chocolates
hot chocolate: I drink chocolate because it is so soothing
a deep brown colour:the former Great Western colours of chocolate and cream
[as modifier] his chocolate brown eyes
Definition of confectioner
[noun]
a person whose trade is making or selling confectionery.
Definition of confectionery
(noun plural confectioneries)
[mass noun] sweets and chocolates considered collectively.
[count noun] a shop that sells sweets and chocolates: chocolate and fudge are made daily at the village confectionery
Definition of confection
[noun]
1. an elaborate sweet dish or delicacy:a fruit confection
an elaborately constructed thing, especially a frivolous one:his elaborate pop confections
an elaborate article of women’s dress:Therese was magnificent in a swirling confection of crimson
2. [mass noun] the action of mixing or compounding something:the confection of a syllabub
Definition of pastry
[noun] (plural pastries)
[mass noun]
a dough of flour, fat, and water, used as a base and covering in baked dishes such as pies: spread the mixture over the pastry
[count noun] an item of food consisting of sweet pastry with a cream, jam, or fruit filling: brightly coloured cakes and pastries
Definition of pie
[noun]
a baked dish of fruit, or meat and vegetables, typically with a top and base of pastry: a meat pie [mass noun] a good meal of hot pie and peas
[as modifier] a pie dish
Definition of sweet
[noun]
1. British a small shaped piece of confectionery made with sugar:a bag of sweets
2. British a sweet dish forming a course of a meal; a pudding or dessert.
3. used as an affectionate form of address:hello, my sweet
4. (the sweet) archaic or literary the sweet part or element of something:you have had the bitter, now comes the sweet
(sweets) the pleasures or delights found in something:the sweets of office


Usage of the terms in the U.K.:
If I use a U.K. Or London business directory and look for confectionery, then see what the business sells, I find shop after shop that sells sweets and chocolates, few that sell cakes or pastries. The exception is a few mass-manufactured, packaged biscuits (cookies) may be found in sweets shops. From the British Telecom London directory, I am more likely to find a shop that combines a newsstand with sweets sales or a tobacconist combined with sweets sales than one that combines sweets and pastries.
If I use the same business directories for bakeries, the listings are dominated by shops that sell a combination of bread, cakes, and pastries, with lesser counts of shops devoted to a single category such as cake or bread.
Cake is a well used category in the BT directory, but most entries sell more than cakes.
Pie is a useful category in the BT directory, most entries sell more than pies..
Oddly if you search in BT for pastries you get a list of car parts dealers, and for pastry you get a list of Italian restaurants.; so clearly pastry is not a useful shop category in London.
Let's use your example of Birds the Confectioners which can be found at birdsbakery.com The company: “55 shops 93 years of baking, 1 bakery”, “A team of dedicated bakers”. What we do: has the following categories: Bread & bread rolls, Cream cakes & confectionery, Cooked meats & savoury, Filled rolls & freshly baked products, Celebration cakes. Their “bakery catalogues” are (is) a cake catalog. Taking their categories as clue, confectionery is a subset of what I would call cookie, cupcake, custard, donut, and pastry (and two items that may not be baked goods). For a cake to be confectionery is should be easily eaten with the fingers.
British bakery website after bakery website follows the same conventions, either confectionery is not used as a term, or when used applies to small sweet pastries and cakes eaten with the fingers. They typically sell more than one bakery good category. The confectionery websites were vastly sweets and chocolates shops. There were exceptions to the pattern on both lists, including a business with Confectionery in the name that specialized in selling sandwiches, not sweets.
From an HM Revenue & Customs website: Any form of food normally eaten with the fingers and made by a cooking process, which contains a substantial amount of sweetening matter.
From a BBC site: “Confectionery describes a broad variety of small, sugar-based delicacies that are usually eaten with the fingers and keep for a long time. In Western Europe and North America, confectionery largely refers to sweets and chocolate bars, but the range of confectionery found around the world is vast, from Indian sweetmeats (such as burfi, halva and jalebi) to Middle Eastern Turkish delight and baklava and Chinese candied fruits. Many confectionery items are related to festivals and celebrations in different cultures.”
From a British publisher of market reports: three relevant categories are used: “Bread and Bakery Products”, “Biscuits and Cakes”, and “Confectionery”. The fastest growing segment 0f 2012 of Bread and Bakery Products was “affordable and convenient breakfast and snack solutions, including crumpets, croissants and doughnuts.” Confectionery is broken into two sub categories: chocolate confectionery (more than 2/3 the market), and sugar confectionery (with strong growth in gums and jellies, especially sour variants).
So layer or celebration cakes as confectionery is a dated meaning, used in names much as archaic spellings are kept, e.g. Mrs Kibbles Olde Sweet Shoppe.
I debated about changing the proposal to deprecate shop=confectionery, and replace it with shop=sweets. But sweets has its own ambiguity problems and in some locales does not include chocolates. So I am sticking with the Oxford definition: “confectionery: a shop that sells sweets and chocolates” and Western European and North American usage that confectionery “largely refers to sweets and chocolate bars” ( which is also true of Australia and several other countries I studied)
I do find my descriptions of sweets not very British, so will change the proposed tag “common_candy” to “common_sweets” and use more British examples.--CS Mur (talk) 18:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, from another British perspective, you're correct in your usage of confectioner/confectionary. Those shops may sell what you might call 'dainty pastries', small sweet finger pastries, but they are definitely a different category from places that would sell what people normally think of when they say pastries - doughnuts, Danish pastries, and so on. Those shops are usually just called bakeries.

Eadgar (talk) 02:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

An aside, I do not consider America a nation with an impoverished tradition of artisan bread. We just have additional retail outlets by which to get bread, namely supermarkets and cafes with bakery counters. Bread machines are also popular here, so some bake their own bread most the time. I walked over after lunch to a local supermarket which is smaller than most in this city. I counted 64 types of what I considered staple breads. (I'm counting hazelnut bread, basically wheat bread with hazelnuts added, as a staple). If I count brand variation, there were 6 different brands of 100% whole wheat bread, you then have well over 100 choices. If you ask for the delivery schedule and know how to read date codes, you can get bread baked today for most of those choices 5 days a week for this particular store. If you don't read codes, you may pick a loaf that was on the shelf from before, but none older than 2 days old. I counted 31 types of artisan breads in stock, another half dozen out of stock. Not much brand overlap in the varieties. Most of these are never day old, they are delivered 7 days a week or made in store. The previous day's product is removed each day (and generally given to charity) before the new bread is stocked. The display area for bakery products was about 66 sq. meters; plus they have behind the counter, work and oven areas. This store bakes a few types of bread, but on site baking is more for bagels, cakes, and pastries. The supermarket I more often visit has a bakery more than double this size with more choice. Most supermarkets bake on premises using dough that was frozen. If I choose to avoid frozen dough, there are still a few supermarkets I can visit or a number of cafes or restaurants with a bakery counter (of course the variety of breads is more limited). If I want warm-from-the-oven bread, I can visit at scheduled times to get a baguette and another variety or two from some supermarkets or bakery counters at a cafe.--CS Mur (talk) 21:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

shop=bread instead of shop=bread_bakery

If there's a consensus to add a separate tag for bread-only or primarily-bread bakeries, then I prefer that we use shop=bread instead of shop=bread_bakery. First, "bread" is simpler. Second, "bread_bakery" might be confused for a shop which sells bread as well as other baked products; or "bread_bakery" seems to imply a shop that sells bread from an on-site oven and does not include shops that sell bread that was baked elsewhere. --seav (talk) 00:20, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

My first pass at this tag was shop=bread. I changed it because it seemed cultures that speak another language first, but are proficient in English, are VERY uncomfortable tagging a staple bread shop with any tag that lacked the word bakery. Some interpreted shop=bread only as "a shop that sold bread baked elsewhere" so would not be using the tag because nearly all their shops bake on the premises. They would actually prefer shop=bakery and shop=non_bread_bakery tags, which is much worse approach to labeling for the US/UK/Can/Aus and how they view and use bakeries. My proposal, with either form of the tag, will involve a learning curve for some, but hopefully a gentle one. We can watch the comments, the "+1"s, and "-1"s that (hopefully) come to figure out the best tag: bread or bread_bakery.--CS Mur (talk) 04:29, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Symetric?

Could we get the bread_bakery and confectionary_bakery tags to look like they are part of the same tagging scheme? Also we've got places that sell bread, and places that bake and sell bread. The later is far more attractive to many than the former. Can we split up the baking and the selling?

Shops that sell confectionery (candy, sweets, chocolates) and those that sell bakery goods (bread, pastry, cake, pies) are confused currently, are resulting in incompatible variations in tagging, and one of the reasons this proposal came about. If you have a shop that does both, use "shop=confectionery;bakery" or mark the shop with two nodes. What specifics in symmetry are you looking for?
I'm trying to avoid excessive splits at the shop level, but will listen to a well backed argument for why more are needed. If you are suggesting a sub tag for "bakes on premises", there is a tag oven=yes in use.--CS Mur (talk) 03:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Diet sub tags

One of the "no" votes mentioned conflict with the diet tags. I can find diet:gluten_free=*, but not diet:lactose_free=* or diet:organic=* on the wiki. Keys organic=*, gluten_free=*, and lactose_free=* have wiki pages. Looking at taginfo, diet:gluten_free=* has been used 35 times, gluten_free=* is used 52 times. organic=* is used 1616 times, diet:organic=* 2 times. lactose_free=* exists as a key but is currently not used, diet:lactose_free=* does not exist as a key. I'm inclined to leave the tags "as is" in the proposal, but invite discussion.--CS Mur (talk) 23:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC) I did find the formal proposal that passed voting for the diet:<diet_type> whereas the gluten_free=* tag never went through the formal proposal stage that I can find. The amenity=restaurant page (I assume a very frequently visited one) lists as "Useful combination": diet=*, gluten_free=*, lactose_free=*, organic=* -- so no clarification there.--CS Mur (talk) 23:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

First Failed Version

The first version of the proposal opened for voting went down in flames because of the split of bakery shops. That page is shown here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/bread_bakery

Additional Tags

A few have requested some sort of tags indicating whether "the products are factory made, baked-off or made in a traditional bakery". I'm not sure how to handle this or if it should be. Many people would be surprised to learn that their "traditional" neighborhood bakery that bakes all their products on premises creates some of their own dough and batter but may make some product from frozen dough. Some "traditional" neighborhood bakeries do everything "from scratch", some do almost nothing from scratch. Short of interviewing the baker or checking the freezer for some commercial dough or the shelves for commercial mixes, how would you know? Oven=yes could be used for those that do baking on the premises. Then I wonder how much that matters. The best French style bakery in my town is actually a few restaurant locations with bakery counters that has one production bakery at one of the locations. Bakery products are delivered from that one location to the other locations several times a day. I believe all products are made from scratch. The quality of the products is excellent, much better in the locations without the ovens than other bakeries in town that do all their baking on premises. We do have the craft=baker tag for artisan baking. One has suggested that the craft tag only be used if the artisan is on premises, but that would leave out all locations but one of my French style bakery, yet the product is the same in each location. I could live with it only for the one location. To evaluate a bakery's quality, I would not rely on tags in OSM, but would go to a webpage if given in OSM and also web search and read reviews. I would consider knowing if the shop was an outlet for a large commercial bakery useful, so outlet=yes? or commercial_outlet=yes (so my local restaurants don't get marked with the same tag)? The name is usually a dead giveaway of commercial outlets, for my area Orowheat Bakery outlet, Bimbo Bakery Outlet, and the onetime Hostess stores. But I suppose not everyone would know all the commercial bakery names, and some outlets might not have the bakery name in the shop name. I'd love some good ideas to implement a practical tagging for all this. If no feedback comes, I'll probably add oven=* and commercial_outlet=* to the bakery tags before the vote.--CS Mur (talk) 04:29, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Some of the discussion of the newer version of the proposal, and tags in specific, are occurring in this thread: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-June/013974.html

I've put together a table of property tags that have been mentioned, but have not yet made the proposal page. Please feel free to add to it. Please do not substantially delete from previous entries but add an alternate within the entry or as a separate entry.--CS Mur (talk) 17:14, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Tags for other bakery properties
Tag Description Example
artisan=yes/only/most/some/few/no Whether goods were produced from highest quality ingredients using artisan techniques, avoiding factory production methods. For baking, using full rise and rest times; avoiding frozen dough, mixes, and use of preservatives. This tag may also be qualified by the goods type such as bread:artisan=most; pie:artisan=no.
produced_on_site=yes/only/most/some/few/no Are the goods sold produced at the site. For bakery_goods, were they mixed and baked at the site. This tag may also be qualified by the goods type such as bread:site_produced=no; cake:site_produced=yes.
commercial_outlet=yes/no Whether the shop is an outlet for a large commercial bakery. The tag brand=* may be used to identify the commercial bakery if not part of the outlet name=*. This tag may also be qualified by the goods type such as bread:commercial_outlet=yes.
local_outlet=yes/no Whether the shop is an outlet for a small local bakery. The tag brand=* may be used to identify the local bakery if not part of the outlet name=*. This tag may also be qualified by the goods type such as pastry:commercial_outlet=yes.
outlet=yes/commercial/local/no or reseller=yes/commercial/local/no Whether the shop is an outlet for goods produced off-site; a small local or large commercial source may be specified. The tag brand=* may be used to identify the bakery if not part of the outlet name=*. This tag may also be qualified by the goods type such as cake:outlet=local.
oven=yes/no Would indicate whether goods are baked on premises.
bread:origin=on_site/local/regional/national/global Where the breads were produced.
pastry:origin=on_site/local/regional/national/global Where the non-bread bakery goods were produced.

origin=* is an established tag where the values are the specific region or country. We probably should not introduce origin tags with a different value set. That tag could be used with bakery shops, but my impression is it does not need inclusion in the tags used in combination list in the bakery article.

In the interest of a slightly shorter tag is "site_produced" any less understandable than "produced_on_site"? I went with produced as opposed to made or baked to allow reuse by shops other than bakeries (per request of one tagging farmer produce stands). - Decided it is less understandable so removed it from table.

Some examples focusing on tags in this section: A outlet for a local artisan bread bakery which has several shops but only one with the ovens. The production part uses a different name than the shops. The bakery also produces a few treats, but not with the same fervor they use on bread. The head baker is highly trained and had won many awards. shop=bakery bread=yes pastry=yes produced_on_site=no local_outlet=yes name=Artisan Bread Bakery brand=Oldworld Breadcraft Bakery bread:artisan=only pastry:artisan=no

Using the previous example, but this time for the shop with the production bakery: shop=bakery bread=yes pastry=yes produced _on_site=yes name=Artisan Bread Bakery brand=Oldworld Breadcraft Bakery bread:artisan=only pastry:artisan=no craft=baker

A shop, associated with a large mass grocer location, that handles commercial factory bread but bakes most cakes and pastries and a bread type or two on site using frozen dough and commercial mixes: shop=bakery bread=yes cake=yes pastry=yes artisan=no bread:commercial_outlet=yes bread:produced_on_site=few cake:produced_on_site=most pastry:site_produced=some --CS Mur (talk) 16:29, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

The Oxford dictionary says an outlet "sells at a discount", a connotation I do not intend. Reseller may or may not be better. Retail_outlet has a general meaning that does not match the intent of the tag.--CS Mur (talk) 16:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Looking at more sources of definitions, outlet seems the best match "a commercial establishment retailing the goods of a particular producer or wholesaler", most do not have the at a discount qualifier. reseller fits someone on ebay better than the shops in question. source and origin both have other use in OSM and could be used on bakery with the other meaning, so should be off-limits.--CS Mur (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Conditional restrictions

I would prefer to use conditional restrictions instead of "sometimes", when the time period is known. Example: speciality_bread:conditional=yes @ (Sa-Su) --Viking81 (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be good if known. The instances I am familiar with are more like 1 to 2 months before Christmas till New Years and the 2 or 3 weeks leading to Easter, Rosh Hashanah, Chanukah, etc. Perhaps speciality_bread:conditional=holidays ?--CS Mur (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
+1 Yes, for holidays it is good. I know some bakers that produce special bread only on weekends, so speciality_bread:conditional=yes @ (Sa-Su) would be perfect. According to me you should not introduce the new tag "sometimes": you should instead encourage the use of existing conditional tags that more probably will be processed by softwares. --Viking81 (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
While sometimes is not a new tag, I think conditional is the one to use as it can convey more information and is much, much more widely used.--CS Mur (talk) 16:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)