Talk:Proposed features/childcare

From OpenStreetMap Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Post-mortem

Update 2012-06-28: both this specific vote, and the voting process itself, were critiqued by Monica Stephens at SheepCamp 2012. Paraphrasing the linked video, there is an inherent problem when discussing this concept stemming partly from the linguistic divide between German and English, and partly from an inadvertent ignorance or dismissal of child care stemming from most OSM contributers and voters being male and thus being on average tasked less with child care duties. Fundamentally, school-age children would not attend a kindergarten for day care and it is unhelpful to map child day care facilities using the tag. Voters have either not grasped this, or have considered the fact of overlap sufficient to reject the proposal without taking the time to propose a proper alternative.

So what is to be done to resolve this and bridge the gap? Until an alternative emerges, individual mappers can disregard the vote and use amenity=childcare or something similar to it. It's wise to consult taginfo first, but by the very design and intent of OSM, mappers can and should use any tags they like. Suggested searches, as a starting point:

Alternatively, use the tag amenity=kindergarten as suggested on its Wiki documentation page, but leave a note=* for other OSM editors to the effect that this "kindergarten" object is not a kindergarten. This approach has the disadvantage that the annotation is not machine-readable.

As a third option, if you have the time and the knowledge, and don't completely reject the voting system within the OSM wiki yet, you could write a follow-up proposal. Taginfo, as ever, makes a good starting point.

--achadwick 16:19, 17 July 2012 (BST)


The main problem of this proposal was that a kindergarten is at least in Germany also a child care facility, so where is the border between a kindergarten and the proposed armenity=childcare? Should we mass edit all amenity=kindergarten to armenity=childcare? This was teh main reason, why this proposal was rejected.
As amenity=kindergarten is more specific, why not just add the missing facilities you need or make clear where to put the border line to amenity=kindergarten. --Fabi2 20:39, 23 July 2012 (BST)

From a UK point of view, kindergarten is seen as for children under school age (5), while childcare can extend up to age 14 or 15. If the amenity is specifically for children over the age of 5, then kindergarten is inappropriate, while childcare is. For those countries that start school later, then kindergarten=pre-school, voluntary and not compulsory, should be appropriate.

Therefore kindergarten is a specific case of childcare, not the other way round.

My view is that the proposal should have been approved: The more general term should be the higher level tag.

--paulbiv 19:02, 145 October 2012 (BST)

Original RFC phase

day care vs. day nursery

Resolved: Flaimo 13:04, 27 April 2011 (BST)
As far as I know, day care is a nursing service for ill children or senior people (DE:Tagespflege), while day nursery (DE:Kinderbetreuung/Kindertagesstätte) is a facility which provides a service to look for you child when you are e.g.at work. The latter is already there as amenity=kindergarten. --Fabi2 17:22, 21 April 2011 (BST)
definition on wikipedia: "Day care or child care is care of a child during the day by a person other than the child's legal guardians, typically performed by someone outside the child's immediate family. Day care is typically an ongoing service during specific periods, such as the parents' time at work." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daycare
gegenverlinkter eintrag auf der deutschen wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderbetreuung --Flaimo 17:59, 21 April 2011 (BST)
daycare has now been changed to childcare --Flaimo 19:57, 24 April 2011 (BST)

Age

if you tagged a feature with

  • amenity=childcare
  • age=4

it would not be completely clear, that age is the age of the children.--Dieterdreist 11:11, 9 May 2011 (BST)

why shouldn't it be clear when the word "child" is in the value? it is the same with the newly approved playground proposal where minage and maxage are used. do you propose that someone could think he has to tag the age of the parents? i consider this a bit farfetched. --Flaimo 15:00, 9 May 2011 (BST)
Then have a look in taginfo. There is already some age-values which are "BC 2000", or "300-700". This tag is not clear. A tag in this form is referring to a feature, not to a user group. It should be something like "for_age" or similar. --Dieterdreist 11:53, 16 May 2011 (BST)

Change underscores to colons in hierarchical key names

Resolved: Flaimo --Flaimo 15:14, 9 May 2011 (BST)
I'd suggest to change the underscores in colons in cases where you have hierarchical tags like "operator:type" --Dieterdreist 11:11, 9 May 2011 (BST)
done --Flaimo 15:14, 9 May 2011 (BST)

Opening Hours not clear

The way you propose to use "opening_hours" is IMHO not in line with the wiki. You suggest to use "open" opening_hours on the facility even if it is closed but the office is open. I'd do it differently (opening_hours to indicate the times of the facility and office_hours or something similar, or a distinct office object with it's own opening_hours). --Dieterdreist 11:11, 9 May 2011 (BST)

service_hours is also used for stating the times of masses or confession, while opening_hours describes when the church is actually physically accessible (not locked). service_hours can therefore be interpreted as a subset of opening_hours. i clarified the description of the tag to reflect that. --Flaimo 15:27, 9 May 2011 (BST)

This feature seems already to be covered

Have a look at Social_facility, subkey social_facility:for=child -- Dieterdreist 11:16, 9 May 2011 (BST)

besides the fact that it is thrown into the same pot as abused, disabled, diseased or drug_addicted, i consider this just to vague with no fitting social_facility value. social_facility:for=child could also be interpreted as a kindergarden, which existed even before social_facility. also why should a use three tags what can be said with one. --Flaimo 15:35, 9 May 2011 (BST)
Personaly I would prefer to add it to this category, instead of using amenity. But I know others like this short form, too. Let's see what the voters say. Nevertheless thanks for your work! --!i! This user is member of the wiki team of OSM 08:06, 10 May 2011 (BST)

Is this tag not already there as amenity=kindergarten?

How does amenity=childcare differ from amenity=kindergarten, which is already in wide use?

As far as I can see, amenity=childcare at least has a partial overlapping with amenity=kindergarten. How relates this tag to amenity=kindergarten? Should we now retag alle amenity=kindergarten with the more generic amenity=childcare? --Fabi2 17:46, 10 May 2011 (BST)

as stated in the first paragraph of the proposal, childcare is not the same as kindergarten. it is something children go to after school (and sometimes after kindergarten) to fill the time gap between the end of school and the time parents with a full time job can take care of them. in some countries this isn't necessary, since kindergarten may be open from morning until evening or schools go to late in the afternoon and afterwards the children are brought home by school buses directly. but in other countries school often ends around noon and that is where this kind of facilities fill the gap. --Flaimo 22:15, 10 May 2011 (BST)
A qoute from the proposal: "The service is known as child care in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care in North America . In german speaking countries it is known as Kindertagesstätte or Hort (mainly Austria)."
What you describe is e.g. "Hort" in German, but "Kindertagesstätte" (aka Kita) is in most cases a full-day child care facility and is known as nursery school in UK and kindergarten in the US. OSM has already amenity=kindergarten for this type of facilities. So How relates this proposal to amenity=kindergarten? --Fabi2 16:19, 13 May 2011 (BST)
...a full-day child care facility and is known as ... kindergarten in the US
That is wrong. We do have something called "kindergarten" in the US, but it is not a full-day child care facility. It is simply a (optional) year of school before grade 1. It is offered by all government-run primary schools and most private primary schools, and it only accepts children between about 4 and 6. It is staffed by teachers, and available (in some fashion) for free through government-run primary schools.
This is not the same thing as what the US calls (variously) childcare / daycare / preschool, which is always a separately run operation, almost always private run, for a fee, for profit, staffed by laypeople (not teachers), and which may accept children anywhere from 6 months to 12 years old. - KTyler 10:06, 13 June 2012 (BST)
Let me add the German point of view here, since I am about to map a Kindertagesstätte to be built in a new residential area. Kindergartens both secular and religious have existed in this country since before WWII, I myself went to one at age 3 to 6, before entering primary school. The Kindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort, on the other hand, caters to children ages 1-3 before the are admitted to kindergarten.
Since this country, like many others, cannot afford to miss young trained mothers/fathers for a total of three years per child, Kita institutions are expanded all over the Western part of Germany. Heilbronn University has opened one several years ago, and due to this fact has been awarded a prize as a "family-friendly university". Interestingly enough, former East Germany is fully equipped with Kitas.
To conclude: may I assume that those who argued and voted against the child care/day care tag are all young, childless males who never had the problem of finding a place to leave their child in good hands while they go about earning their rent?
Gpermant 20:46, 15 July 2012 (BST)

Crèche

As a search keyword it's probably worth mentioning "Creche" (or "Crèche" to give it's proper fiddly characters). It's a french word but used a lot in english for this same (I think) concept.

Also I guess the tag might often be used on a node inside a larger facility e.g. a hospital, shopping mall, sports facility, or inside a big shop (IKEA provides a creche for example)

Another tag to use in combination would be Key:fee. In particular fee=no if it's a free day care facility.

-- Harry Wood 23:12, 19 September 2012 (BST)