Talk:Proposed features/motorcycle friendly

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Past discussion - on motorcycle_friendly

How about motorcycle=designated ?

rtfm : I think most of the hotels / campings a.s.o. aren't able to live just from motorbike clients ("designated"), but three different values would be a possibility, others also use this : http://www.tourenfahrer-hotels.de/wegweiser (example "accepted" / "welcomed" / "designated", they use colours instead). Are there any similar values already used for other tags ? (such as takeaway yes/no/only, but more adequate ?)


AllroadsNL: How about the addition in the keytag :friendly motorcycle:friendly, I prefer friendly:motorcycle then friendly as a key. So that not only motorcyclist but also other categories dog, pets, mountainbikers, etc. can use it ! You must think wider, with such proposal, then it is more accepted, and more used,......more meniningful.

Investigation, what the best key is. Are there other solutions. This I miss in the propasal. Already some voted, i hope they revised there vote, because of new opinion, not mentioned before.

You can not count together the votes and say consuences. Voting is to soon.


rtfm to the proposal of AllroadsNL: Nice idea to think wider, why don't you start a proposal about that keytag :friendly ?

We could later switch the motorcycle_friendly key to this new format (in case it's not discussed to death),

similar to the switch from website= / phone= to the contact:website or contact:phone tags which are not very good documented, see

  • "Useful combination" :

tourism=hotel

tourism=guest_house

  • "Tagging" :

tourism=camp_site

  • Main page

contact=*

I referred with motorcycle_friendly to the system of internet_access=*,

but if your (separate) proposal (with dog, pets, mountainbikers..and ?) will be accepted, that's also a possibility.

Tagging List Discussions

There are discussions on this tag on the Tagging list that should be considered. e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-March/031423.html Warin61 (talk) 20:22, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Have been considered rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Assessment of tag - is it too subjective?

Some on the Tagging list regard this proposal as too subjective. Warin61 (talk) 20:22, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

There's a clear description of four preconditions for "yes".
These conditions are also usual in "proprietary" lists of motorcycle friendly accommodations rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
If this tag is about an aggregated way to tag exactly and only those 4 properties then I'm against it as well: better tag the single properties and aggregate if you like on the map/portal where you present the features.--Dieterdreist (talk) 06:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Didin't get the point, could you give an example ? rtfm Rtfm (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
With aggregated I meant several properties combined into one tag. In these cases it is preferable to tag the single properties, because this allows for different combinations (or different weights for the individual properties). E.g. water_quality=good, air_quality=bad could be combined into the aggregated tag environmental_quality=medium (stupid example, but I hope it makes it clear). Rather then tagging just the aggregated property you could tag air and water distinctively hence providing useful information to people who are only interested in air quality, only in water quality or who want the combination (who makes the map can decide because the mappers have given him the details to build upon) --Dieterdreist (talk) 18:43, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
With "example" I meant something like this (that's how I understood your proposal):
  • friendly:motorcycle=parking;tools;drying_room;tour_tips
Don't think this would be good for frontends rtfm Rtfm (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
In case you mean every frontend may decide to build upon a couple of parameters, please see my note in the "Past discussion - on motorcycle_friendly" : "I referred with motorcycle_friendly to the system of internet_access=*". If we compare it, one could also say that it would maybe be interesting to others whether there's a router, a TCP/IP protocol, a phone cable or satellite connection, which speed a.s.o. While the user is just interested whether it's possible to have Internet and if it's wireless or not. Generally I prefer the "KISS principle". What doesn't mean that "details" / "basics" of this key can't be mapped separately in the future (example drying_room). rtfm Rtfm (talk) 21:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Here's an example: drying_room=yes, motorcycle_parking=yes, motorcycle_repair_tools=yes, motorcycle_tour_tips=yes. I.E. these are 4 tags rather than one, and the drying room for instance isn't something particularly related to motorcycle tourists, it can by used by everyone with the need to dry his clothes. --10:55, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Very nice approach, I'd just use another format (similar to the address:*= system)
  • motorcycle:tools=yes
  • motorcycle:parking=yes (then the existing key would need to be changed)
  • drying_room=yes (new key necessary)
  • motorcycle:tours=yes / info
As this is currently undefined, I'd also add
  • motorcycle:clothes=yes (because of clothes shops, they are shop=motorcycle a.t.m.) rtfm Rtfm (talk) 12:50, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
The motorcycle:tours=yes/info is hard to understand I believe (is this an organizer of motorcycle tours? A station where they typically stop?) Please note that there are already instances of the motorcycle_parking property in use (with the colon-seperated version there are none): [1]. There are also a few service:bicycle:tools tags: [2]. --Dieterdreist (talk) 14:22, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
The key motorcycle:tours=yes / info shall be for either (guided) tours=yes or for information material=info. As this is indeed a "service" offered by "motorcycle friendly" accommodations, an alternative would be
  • service:motorcycle:tours=yes (but as someone mentioned in the "bicycle" proposal : it's "ugly") I don't see what it might be good for. I wouldn't see tools as a service, but more like physical stuff "on the ground" (there's no provision of services). Same for drying_room.
As there aren't so many entries yet, bicycle could possibly also think about switching to bicycle:tools (same for any other sport). There isn't anything for sport=skiing yet. While Mountain_biking#Basic_Tags_related_to_Mtbiking has a similar system (mtb:*) rtfm Rtfm (talk) 15:06, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Don't like the use of the word 'information' here ... as it is already in use with the key tourism. Perhaps the word 'brochure' would be better? motorcycle:tour=brochure? Umm motorcycle:map=yes for availability of paper map that is motorcycle specific? A motorcycle tours office could go under the office tag? Warin61 Warin61 (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
In fact, it's a kind of "specialized" tourism information, so it would IMHO even be good to use the same word as in tourism. It may consist of info on any medium (tour tips on the homepage, the proprietor rides himself and gives tips (in person), personal contact to dealers in the environment in case of spare parts need etc.). So it would mainly be the difference between guided tours and the provision of knowledge. What is your concern about the word, think it might get confused ? rtfm Rtfm (talk) 13:34, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
I think splitting motorcycle_friendly into well defined properties, like :tools or :parking makes sense. Users can simply filter for the property they are looking for. Something I am unsure about is how to tag restaurants where bikers usually meet? Maybe it would make sense to tag these places with :venue or :meeting_point? Restaurants don't offer special parking or a drying_room. If you are lucky you might get tour tips, depending on the service. However, these meeting points are well known in the local motorcycle community and there are people that are searching for these places. Boldtrn (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Wider Application

Tag has considered the wider application to other activities like hiking, bicycling. The requirement for separate proposals for other activities I don't think is relevant. Warin61 (talk) 20:35, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

It seems obvious to me that "children friendly" would have other parameters than "motorcycle friendly" (Unless the "drying room" just needs to be replaced by "diaper changing table"). The preconditions for "yes" in case of motorcycle are clear, but I don't think it's helpful to discuss each and every possibility for other (certainly upcoming) "friendly" idea in the current RFC, as men will then first be on Mars before this is through. rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
To be judged 'friendly' how many parameters are required? This could be universal for all 'friendly' features, not just motorcycles. Warin61 (talk) 03:28, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
In case of motorcycles : 4. (See Proposal). This request has never been about "the rest of the world" optional "friendly" keys. I'm fine with any proposals, but will just define the "motorcycle"- related parameters. The name of the key was just changed to friendly:motorcycle as some wished to define other "friendly" keys (which I'm now missing in the discussion). That doesn't change the focus of the key.rtfm Rtfm (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Non Lodging Application

Some cafes, pubs etc are 'friendly' too .. the tag can be applied to any feature. Some guidance as to what is considered friendly should be given. "Provides features that are helpfull to the participants in the particular activity, for example provision of security (e.g. parking within sight), availability of free drinking water, place for wet clothing."

For Restaurants, Pubs etc. there could just be a definition that this is a usual meeting point or it's especially for bikers (Ace cafe, Glemseck, Bars which have a "Biker" name and are dedicated for this purpose). But this is not that important, as seldom (just has been added as of a proposal during the last RFC process, won't be often applied, the usual regional meeting points are well-known and there's a consensus among bikers) rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
One cafe I know of offers free tea/coffee for any motorcyclist. I would not tag 'usual meeting places', but places that offer special services to that activity. Warin61 (talk) 20:32, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
So how would you define this example ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_Cafe AFAIK there's no free coffee, but it's obvious motorbike friendly (even a legend). Other examples : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biker_bar#List_of_biker_bars rtfm Rtfm (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
What things does it offer over and above the casual visitor (who is not a motorcyclist)/ None? Then it is not 'motorcycle friendly'. It is more a 'theme' kind of place, attractive more to some than others. Warin61 (talk) 03:30, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Du you mean, accommodations should have yes / no / customary, while restaurants a.s.o. should have
  • friendly:motorcycle=theme (instead of "yes" ?) rtfm Rtfm (talk) 19:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
No. A cafe I know offers free tea/coffee to motorcyclists. No theme there, just 'friendly'. (They ride themselves.) So I'd like to tag them friendly:motorcycle=yes. If you want to tag a theme then I'd use the same system already in use for playground=*, there are restaurants with themes too. Warin61 (talk) 23:55, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
In case of the "new" format, how about motorcycle:theme=yes ? (friendly would also be o.k., as it couldn't be confused with accommodations any more) rtfm Rtfm (talk) 13:34, 9 March 2017 (UTC)


Values

Customary

I don't know what the value 'customary' means for this tag. Warin61 (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

The value "customary" has been adapted from here nudism=*. It means "usual".
Thought the given explanation was clear, what can be misunderstood ?
"Every other which is "(motorcycle) friendly", but has less or no special offers, will be tagged as "customary". - Should even work for successor "friendly" keys
rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
The words 'customary' or 'usual' do not have the meaning you are trying to convey, they are a distortion of their meaning. You are trying for something between 'yes' and 'neutral' .. possibly 'positive'? In this case I think it may be better to state the number of 'things' e.g. friendly:motorcycle=2 Warin61 (talk) 20:46, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
IMHO too complicated, usual lists also got three categories, people can deal with this, but not with a table how to "count" positive aspects (that's how I understood your annotation) rtfm Rtfm (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

No

The value 'no' should be given some description .. for instance 'The value 'no' means that the activity and its participants are discouraged by this feature." Warin61 (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

"feature" is a strange word for a hotel, otherwise a good sentence
rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Things shown on any map are 'features' on that map. Hence 'feature' in OSM terms refers to any physical object in the OSM data base. Warin61 (talk) 22:00, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Agree, can this be linked for those who don't know about it ? rtfm Rtfm (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
If you type 'feature' into the top right OSM search box above .. you will get the basics. Warin61 (talk) 03:31, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm totally aware that RTFM helps sometimes. The question was, if this may be linked (what's the syntax ?) Otherwise I'd prefer a "real life" word, as new users can't read the whole wiki (by searching keywords) before making a single entry. (I think therefore the "wiki cleanup" project has been established). rtfm Rtfm (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes

The requirements for 'yes' are region specific. A 'drying room' would not be offered in desert dry areas (e.g. the Sahara). These should be examples of what is required. Warin61 (talk) 20:46, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Wiredrawn, but may be mentioned in the wiki "exept when in deserts" rtfm Rtfm (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I would rather see the 'requirements' given as 'examples' to allow for other services to be used. Drying rooms are usually available to all guests, while usefull to motorcyclists they are not motorcycle specific. Warin61 (talk) 00:01, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Rendering

The suggestion that this be used as a garmin poi file is not a good use of OSM to me, such a file can be made outside of OSM. The 'rendering' should suggest how to is displayed on a map. I would think that specialist maps for an activity make more promote the feature that have the tag by increasing the size of the symbol, make it appear sooner on zoom levels or ? Warin61 (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't think there will be special symbols (exept in motorcycle specialised frontends, possibly kurviger.de),
just an extra information such as the "free Wifi" / "In this Hotel is a restaurant" in unterkunftskarte.de
The possibility to filter on (whatever) "friendly" can be achieved without a symbol.
As otherwise the difference between Hotel / Guesthouse / Camping won't be visible anymore (too many symbols on the map).
rtfm Rtfm (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)