User talk:Verdy p/Archive 2016 Jan-Jun

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Change descriptions

Can I ask that you put descriptions on your changes please? As I'm sure you're aware, this helps people to see what's happened in a file's history at a glance without picking through diffs. Thanks --Deanna Earley (talk) 06:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I note you still seem to be reluctant to add descriptions, especially when meaning lots of changes to pages. Is there any reason why? Thank you. --Deanna Earley (talk) 19:05, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
"Lot of changes" really ? Only one status changed, one line moved, and added a few missing rendering servers: 3 lines concerned even when you group these diffs. The changes were not radical throughout the page. — Verdy_p (talk) 03:42, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
"...at a glance without picking through diffs.". Yes, you can get that information, but when you make many, small, uncommented changes it's difficult to tell (The same applies to everyone). That's what the descriptions are for. Try doing the same for this list. Thank you for your cooperation. --Deanna Earley (talk) 08:23, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
+1. That edit by you, Verdy p, has a nice description! :-) --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 19:30, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Featured Image proposal

Thanks for taking part in the "featured images" efforts.

I've moved your image idea onto Featured image proposals#Epworth, Zimbabwe addresses heatmap. We can discuss it there, and it'll probably be featured next week.

-- Harry Wood (talk) 23:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I just saw that we were very short of time of having no image this week. I saw a recent image was uploaded and it was interesting. — Verdy_p (talk) 00:46, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

May i suggest this older photo i took two years ago for the list? --Ziltoidium (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Description categories

Thanks for helping with the translations! I actually wasn't sure if it should be done right away, but it seems to work quite well :) — Charel(talk) 11:06‎, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes it works. Now the pages are being moved slowly in the background to the redirected categories. — Verdy_p (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
There are still some issues with groups (pages without any group specified are all listed in categories by group, or when the subcategory for a group does not exist). This will be solved later, given that few pages actually have specified a group. — Verdy_p (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it seemed sensible to that you can see which pages lack the "group" tag. If we don't want them directly in the description by groups category, we can just create a subcategory like Category:Keys with no group specified to store them. Charel (talk) 13:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Note: when you rename a category, just after that, please edit the new redirecting category created to include the template {{Category redirect|New name without the "Category:" namespace prefix}}, so that any content that would remain or would be placed there remains accessible in the new category (which will list the old category at end of subcategories under the left-arrow key, as long as the old category is not empty): we can access its content by only two clicks (the first one on the old category name listed, which will still redirect, then the second one in the status below the title to avoid that redirect).
Placing that template just requires copying the #REDIRECT line below and changing a few characters.
Note also that pages that are still categozing themselves in a redirecting categories, are showing the category in italic: clickin on it will link you to the new category via the redirect, but you won't see that page which is still in the old category; but you can use the new category name after the redirect to update the page.
We must not have categories left with simple redirects as they are usually invisible for most users that don't notice the redirect.
This remark also applies when you translate a category name (leave the #REDIRECT line that allow the navigation bar to work instantly, but place the template in it) — Verdy_p (talk) 12:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Got it. But once they're empty (and not linked to), they can be cleared (including the template) and labelled for deletion, right? Cheers, Charel (talk) 13:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
No, keep the template there (notably for redirected English categories to translated categories). The category will decategorize automatically if it is empty (but if it's still not, you can null edit it).
The English name is likely to be reused when new articles are being translated and not finished. Look at many examples I created, or those created by our Japanese translator that understood why the template remains useful for this case. — Verdy_p (talk) 13:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
However if you've redirected a category because of a bad name (unfortunate but incommon typo) that should never be used again, you can replace the whole content (#redirect and category redirect template) by a {{delete|reason}} request, or delete it if you're an admin.
For synonyms that are likely to be used (plurals, alternate orthography), you can keep also the template, instead of deleting it. It helps more than it hurts. — Verdy_p (talk) 13:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi, it's me again. Thanks for checking & cleaning the Template:Description. I'm just wondering why you removed the last part

      | {{#ifexpr: {{PAGESINCATEGORY:Tag descriptions for key "{{{key|-}}}"|pages}} > 0
        | <nowiki />
  {{!}}-class="d_group content"
  {{!}} '''{{DescriptionLang|Documented values|{{{lang|en}}}}}:''' [[:Category:Tag descriptions for key "{{{key|}}}"|{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Tag descriptions for key "{{{key|}}}"|pages}}]]
        }}

It's needed to show the mainspace category if the localised categories are enabled, but don't exist (as for example Cs:Key:crop). I agree that it creates a bit a weird mix of localised and mainspace categories, but that's how it was supposed to work originally (aka before I tampered with it). Alternatively, we could display both , like Documented values: 0 / 20. What do you think?

On a different note, I get a feeling that you are quite active cleaning up behind me. I thank you for that, but I don't want to cause unnecessary trouble nor work, so I'm wondering if there's a better way of taking this on? I tried to present some of my changes on the Template_talk:DescriptionCategories page, but the overall response was (understandably, in a way) not overwhelming. I'm wondering if posting to the forum would help? I'm not very keen on joining the Talk mailing list, as it is just very general... Cheers, Charel (talk) 03:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

That part uses a second test which is not on the same language. Only one category is referenced, using multiple calls to PAGESINCATEGORYT also adds 1 expensive call. The statistic is not essential there, it should just indicate those that are effectively documented. For effective usages there's Taginfo that gives more accurate numbers.
I wonder if this is only useful to difplay two numbers (we just have to look at the English page if needed, but it doesnot always exist for tags described only in another language) — Verdy_p (talk) 03:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I thoght it would be a subtle way to indicate that the English documentation is more complete (and thus might be worth a quick look), but yes, it would need one more expensive call. Anyway, we can just leave it as is, should be fine too. Cheers, Charel (talk) 12:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Given that we have a navigation bar everywhere, the English page is just one click away to give its own statistics. Let's keep this statistic per language, without unnecessary complication.
Anyway the various tools trying to read the documentation (e.g. JOSM) do not use this number, they try locating pages directly, or use Taginfo.
It is in fact more useful to display what is actually translated in a language, not mixing between counters in English or counters in local language, depending on each key.
The value of this counter is very low anyway. And Taginfo statistics are also displayed in boxes. — Verdy_p (talk) 12:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Why the second list of languages?

Could you please explain the point behind https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User:Wynndale/Languages/div&diff=1294236&oldid=1294212? Having a single list of languages in one template in the order they are displayed in (not spread over two) makes the code transparently maintainable and templates in this wiki need to be maintainable by people other than you. Furthermore the edit reintroduces Corsican (corsu) links that are no longer hidden by default, for instance from Map Features that uses the beta template; there was a comment in the version you walked over but let me repeat: there are no pages in Corsican in this wiki, Co:Map Features was a content fork of Spanish.--Andrew (talk) 20:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I progressivley tuned the work you have left behind. Testing on pages, testing also on mobiles to make sure all was OK. I integrated a CSS tweak needed for mobiles (due to the way they increse font sizes in non standard ways). The list is just simpler like that. Also the code is faster (I verified that), uses less memory.
There is Corsican on this wiki. Note: this not just the home page. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
I am talking about the change that introduced a dependency on User:Wynndale/Languages/Interface, not the earlier CSS changes. The existing template needs a separate /interface template to control the number of times that #ifexist is called. This one has no such need. Your version has the lower transparency of two different lists; one of them is not in the order displayed and the other one, is someone ever copies it over whole, has traps for the unwary such as no and nb that are both Norsk bokmål and WMF-specific stuff like simple English. In fact it actually has mismatches: Tamazight is not displayed because the /div template has zgh and the /interface template has tzm, which cannot happen when there is only one list. This is not so obvious because you also removed the command to show the red links. I repeat again: there are no pages in Crorsican on this wiki and every single page beginning with Co: is in Spanish. This cannot be changed without administrative intervention (renaming leaving redirects behind cannot work).--Andrew (talk) 07:01, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
But your initial list was not complete. And tzm also exists, zgh was possibly added later but since always the full list was maintained on the base template and this is exactly the same.
I absolutely don't care if there are some Spanish pages in "co:", there are some pages in Corsican that correctly use the "co:" prefix. Those spanish pages must be renamed (or if it's not needed becuse there's a regular Spanish page, those "co:" page should be redirected to the English page) but that's another issue (and this does not require any admin to do that).
There's no reason to hide Corsican or any other language.
The 2 lists are sorted differently: one by code ensures that they will be used only once, the other was sorted using an external tool (actually sorted in Excel in a two column table containing the code and the translated language name, so that they match the display order) containing many more living languages (even languages for which we still don't have content, the list being longer and needing little management: to add a language only the first list need to be there, but it remains uncomplete as long as we don't have content for them)
There's always been these two lists and this caused absolutely no problem: only the first one (sorted by code) needed edits sometimes for a new language (the second list already had that code).
Verdy_p (talk) 07:07, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Note about Tamazight: there were two pages created in one case with the wrong code (zgh instead of tzm) the list you reverted was already correct since long, but the first list in the main template was modified by someone trying to link this incorrect code. I've merged the two pages into one, now only tzm is used (zgh is marked for deletion). I made several tests on this language and fixed a few other things in their pages to make them work correctly with the languages bar. "Tzm" was just a draft for now, except in one page for Wikiproject Morocco that had actual content (and now can use the languages bar)
I've also fixed a few missing languages you had forgotten in your version (but were present in the main version), and made sure they were sorted correctly.
Also you claimed that the main Missing languages template was showing red links, it is not the case, your version and the main version were in fact fully synchronized and I check all links, none of them are displaying red links in any case: those languages that sill have no translation for the Help page will link to the English fallback page. Those that have actual translations already link directly to it (avoiding the single #ifexist when using the LL template to determine the target). — Verdy_p (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

all translations are sorted in "/"

Hi Verdy p, thanks your explanation. Didn't know this - whyever it is that way. Not really obvious. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:14, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Tranlations are a separate from the rest of the content in the current language. That convention is not new, and is used also on other wikis (e.g. on Commons). — Verdy_p (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and why a DEFAULTSORT there? That's equal to the page title?! --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Because translators forget to set it and just copy-paste the English page. They don't realize that the translated pages name include the language key, and that when the page is renamed in their language, the sort key is also adjustable. — Verdy_p (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Also the default sort key is shared (independantly of categories or hidden categories). — Verdy_p (talk) 23:04, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I have added a DEFAULTSORT to the development language template that removes language prefixes such as Pl: or Ar: from page names in categories. I think this is more robust than adding lots of sort keys to pages that become wrong if pages are moved or translations have different names.--Andrew (talk) 21:39, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
This does not work when pages have translated names. And there are lots of pages that have their own sort key which is not the full english page name but a different part of it. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:44, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks...

...for editing the "OS" userboxesǃǃ ː-D --Ziltoidium (talk) 08:22, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes they were generating random categories (the parameters were tested with case insensitive, but then used as is for the category names! — Verdy_p (talk) 08:24, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Could you help me with this following Userbox of Mapillary? [1] ? So far the problem is that "User A" adds fotos as "User A". But what, if an OSM user has a different username at Mapillary? It should be better "User A" adds photos as "User B". Hope you understand what i try to explain ǃ? Thanksǃ --Ziltoidium (talk) 08:51, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Use the 1st parameter to specify the alternate username on Mapillary, if this is not the same as the user name on this wiki. — Verdy_p (talk) 09:50, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

But where do i have to add this paramater? In my userbox? I don't really understand what to do now. Sorry ː-/ --Ziltoidium (talk) 09:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

E.g. {{User Mapillary|Ziltoidium-2}}, to replace your local user name "Ziltoidium" (on this wiki) by "Ziltoidium-2" (on Mapillary web site). Which gives:
Mapillary Verdy p takes photos for Mapillary as Ziltoidium-2.
Note that my own user name is shown in this example at the begining of the sentence, as it is my local username (as seen on in this talk pagename). — Verdy_p (talk) 09:58, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

AWESOMEǃ Thanks so much --Ziltoidium (talk) 10:06, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

You've done the same thing on your user page for Twitter (you twitt with another @name than your account name on this wiki)... — Verdy_p (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

So many useful tipps and error corrections. A good day for me, i am happy i met you. Thanks for your helpǃ i learned quite a lot --Ziltoidium (talk) 19:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

LL - what for?

Hi Verdy, that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Wiki&curid=8874&diff=1303044&oldid=1302253 new syntax is quite complicated. What is its benefit? I did not find it on template:LL too. Thanks! --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Not complicated, it helps tracking missing links, it tests the presence of the link but if it is there it will display the correct link. It is a helper, if there's an actualy translation it can be replaced by a static page name (but experience proves that many pages are created without correcting many links that could use it. There's no surprise, it helps advancing by providing the Englihs fallback if there's still no translation, which could come later). — Verdy_p (talk) 02:02, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
So does this mean it has no effect in the English pages? It seems quite a big impact on link syntax in that case. Do you plan this to be used for all English pages? --Tordanik 05:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
It does not impact English pages, but it helps each time an English page is translated (it gets copy-pasted to another language and this parameter is too frequently forgotten, translators are not aware that it is needed in their new pages.
It also helps each time the English page is moved to another name (to preserve the existing links from all other existing languages): It will keep the old name before the move that is still being linked to, even if this is a redirect. Here also Experience has shown that all other translations were not updated to use the new links and that new redirects or moves were forgotten in translations. With it the languages bar continues working from the English page or from all other translated pages. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Hands off whitespace

Stop removing whitespace from templates right now. The mass changes make it needlessly difficult for anyone else to review changes. Many people other than myself have complained to you about this. This wiki is a resource for developing OSM and is not your private playground.--Andrew (talk) 12:58, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

But there was NO mass changes: read the diffs successively they are small, and contain corrections discovered you just drop silently.
Also you continue with false assumptions... I've corrected them one by one when I discovered them, and you drop all at once.
The extra category you want to create is not necessary. The ns parameter is still needed because your code to remove it "magically" is still wrong !
I've passed a long time fixing these, including for talk pages that do not work with the ((TALKSPACE)) as it is NOT the same from one language to another.
E.g. Talk:Xyz becomes DE_Talk::Xyz, or FR_Talk:Xyz, but but Talk:Cs:Xyz or Talk:Da:Xyz; if you are in the German talk page, ((TALKSPACE)) will give "DE_Talk:" which is wrong to link the talk page in any other language (you cannot append the langage code). — Verdy_p (talk) 13:04, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
When things are discussed and evolved for more than a month where you don't look at diffs, you will only compare a too long period: the diffs were small (even the standard formatting of spaces was separated and did not cause a large edit by itself. Then the following are self-explainatory. Look at the comments and diffs you've lost completely in 2 months,n during which the tests were actually performed on more pages along.
You are not alone to see that, there are other contributors using other languages and that want to see their languages with slower delays, but with without ignoring the past and their needs they provided in several talk pages that you've forgotten to follow. Things were corrected for Japanese, Arabic, Tamazigh, Czech that you have not listened (and they are summarized in my small successive edits in the diffs).
It is not hard to follow, but I've not made any radical change.
Before suppressing the ns parameter you really need much more thinks... I've integrated your tracking category (that you forgot to create). All things that you did were kept by me inclujding this (unnecessary) tracking category. Most pages have been using it, ignoring it blindly will cause errors (that you do not want to detect). 13:24, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
No, you listen to me. You often don’t understand other people’s work and therefore you imagine problems with it that don’t really exist, or maybe you’re just a control freak who likes to make your personal imprint on everything. Because of your lousy edit summaries and wilful reformatting there is often no way to tell anything useful from the cargo cult programming edits that you like to make.--Andrew (talk) 22:12, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
You're wrong, I commented every change that you rollbacked blindly. And I've understood everything you've done (I never reverted blindly, I integrated every change you did, even with this needed reformatting that fixed incorrect significant spaces). You just ignored all comments (notably because there were fixes for Japanese, as I detected bugs you did not want to look at even when it was explained. You added extra spaces that were visible or that broke the logic (e.g. for sort keys where you inserted significat spaces). You wanted a bit more indentation in your template, OK they are present, but my code has always been correctly indented (as much as possible, as long it does not break, however for small spans where the braces are paired unambiguously, there's no need to add excessive ones).
Each time you've rollbacked things, the same bugs reappeared. I recorrected them one by one, testing them each time after looking at various test pages. I also scrupulously looked at server parsing statistics, each time my version was saving about 20% of compute time and several thousands of nodes on expansion (avoiding breaking long pages due to parser limits).
Your own edits did not add any comment in fact, and you did not test them really. And we know that you're completely unable to use history correctly (notably diffs in the rare cases you look at them). — Verdy_p (talk) 07:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
And once again your blind revert has broken all past fixes which were commented multiple times (in the edit summary or even in the code itself) ! You wanted indentation every useful indentation was there. In fact I wonder if you understand anything to Wiki syntax. My edits were not just indentation a different way (even if your own indentation is in fact incorrect and largely excessive), there were real fixes. — Verdy_p (talk) 07:12, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
You’re doing it again. Your edits to Template:languages include large amounts of changes to whitespace that are unrelated to any problems but make revisions difficult to compare. Therefore the only way to keep the template maintainable in the long term is to revert the completely. If you think I'm wrong to value long term maintainability feel free to drum up support for your stand.--Andrew (talk) 14:52, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I do not and will not judge your or anyone else’s edits on a minority of the changes while ignoring the majority. In this case the majority of the edit is a massive reformatting of whitespace that stops the differences from being identified and makes the code less clear for maintenance in the future.--Andrew (talk) 19:37, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
OK, are you willing (1) to make minimal edits that are as easy to review as possible because there are no mass changes to formatting, changing your editor settings if you need to, and (2) to discuss all design decisions you think I got wrong on template talk:languages? --Andrew (talk) 14:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)