Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20060822/Log

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	<Etienne>	Anyone here for the Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks meeting?
	<avantman42>	I'd come along to see what got said. I was also going to ask a couple of questions. Back in a mo
	<chippy_tim>	theres a meeting now?
	<Etienne>	avantman42: If you have questions, please go ahead and ask them.
	<Etienne>	chippy_tim: Well, kind of... nothing was really scheduled or announced. So it's a bit ad-hoc.
	<chippy_tim>	cool
	<chippy_tim>	ive a question or two :)
	<Etienne>	Go ahead
	<chippy_tim>	schemas: like landuse:residential, road:footpath, access:yes (dont remember the correct ones) but instead of writing them for each way, is there a way to save them as like a template
	<chippy_tim>	is there a method to save me creating new key:value pairs for ways, in other words :)
	<Etienne>	Yes, if you are using JOSM then you can use the Annotations Preset feature
	<chippy_tim>	oh! I should update my JOSM then :)
	<Etienne>	Annotations Preset is an XML file that defines a set of valid key/value combinations
	<Etienne>	Build 128 is what I am using
	<chippy_tim>	114 here
	<Etienne>	Time to upgrade.
	<chippy_tim>	does the file reside in the .jsom folder?
	<chippy_tim>	yep :)
	<Etienne>	It can be anywhere - its referenced with a URI
	<Etienne>	Blackadder was working on one that implemented all of the map features rules
	<Etienne>	I have one that implements most of the ones I use
	<chippy_tim>	great stuff, I'll have a look in the list
	<chippy_tim>	got 136 build now
	<avantman42>	How do I mark an area? I'm sure I got told at the Midlands meeting, but I've forgotten ;-)
	<Etienne>	Here's my file:
	<Etienne>	<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<item name="Major Highway">
<label text="Major Highway"/>
<combo key="highway" text="Type" values="secondary,primary,trunk,motorway,motorway_link"/>
<text key="ref" text="Road Number"/>
<text key="image" text="Image URI"/>
<check key="oneway" text="Oneway?" values="1,-1"/>
<item name="Minor Highway">
<label text="Minor Highway"/>
<combo key="highway" text="Type" values="residential,unclassified,service,unsurfaced"/>
<text key="name" text="Street name"/>
<text key="image" text="Image URI"/>
<check key="oneway" text="Oneway?" values="1,-1"/>
<item name="Footway">
<label text="Footway"/>
<combo key="highway" text="Type" values="footway,steps,cycleway,bridleway"/>
<item name="Gate">
<label text="Gate"/>
<key key="highway" value="gate"/>
<item name="Service Road">
<label text="Service Road"/>
<key key="highway" value="service"/>
<item name="Parking">
<label text="Parking"/>
<key key="amenity" value="parking"/>
<item name="Telephone">
<label text="Telephone"/>
<key key="amenity" value="telephone"/>
<text key="post_code" text="Post code"/>
<item name="Post Box">
<label text="Post Box"/>
<key key="amenity" value="post_box"/>
<text key="ref" text="Letter box number"/>
<item name="Church">
<label text="Church"/>
<key key="amenity" value="place_of_worship"/>
<combo key="denomination" text="Type" values="church_of_england,catholic,muslim,hindu,buddist,sikh,jewish,<other - please specify>"/>
<text key="name" text="Name"/>
<text key="image" text="Image URI"/>
<item name="Waterway">
<label text="Waterway"/>
<text key="name" text="Name"/>
<combo key="waterway" text="Type" values="river,canal,drain,"/>
<item name="Data Source">
<label text="Way/Segment/Node Data Source"/>
<combo key="source" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/>
<item name="Street Name Source">
<label text="Street Name Source."/>
<combo key="source:name" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/>
<item name="Road Number Source">
<label text="Road Number Source."/>
<combo key="source:ref" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/>
<item name="Power Line">
<label text="Power Line"/>
<key key="power" value="line"/>
<item name="Pylon">
<label text="Power Line Pylon"/>
<key key="power" value="tower"/>
<text key="ref" text="Tower Id"/>

	<Etienne>	avantman42: you can mark an area just by making a way that joins up with itself.
	<almien>	http://pastebin.com/
	<avantman42>	Etienne: I thought it was something like that, but isn't there a key/value pair to mark it as an area?
	<Etienne>	You need to make sure that all the segments are pointing in the same direction, and the way should include the segments strictly in clockwise or anti-clockwise sequence.
	<Etienne>	almien: thks for that: http://pastebin.com/773469
	<Etienne>	btw that file covers the values that I use for 98% of the tags that I use.
	<avantman42>	So, if I make sure that each segment goes in a clockwise direction, and they are added to the way in order, then that's it?
	<chippy_tim>	thanks Etienne!!
	<Etienne>	avantma42: yes, just tag the way with an area-like tag, such as amenity=parking and you are done.
	<avantman42>	Etienne: Grand. Thanks
	<avantman42>	Now how do I use this annotations file? I've got it downloaded, and it's in my preferences. I just can't work out how to use it
	<blarson>	When editing a way, josm randomly decided to add a segment from another way. How do I fix this?
	<tweety_de>	there should now be a pulldown on near the tags window
	<tweety_de>	use this to select one of the predefined
	<almien>	control-click on the offending segment
	<tweety_de>	or use ctrl-z to undo
	<blarson>	tweety_de: didn't notice till I uploaded
	<avantman42>	tweety_de: There is. Thanks, I don't know how I missed that
	<almien>	select it, press W, then ctrl-click
	<tweety_de>	if you uploaded its's probably too late for ctrl-z
	<tweety_de>	i missed it too. Imi had to point me to it 4 times untill saw it ;-)
	<avantman42>	That makes me feel a little better :-)
	<avantman42>	Etienne: Thanks. Your annotations file looks very useful
	<blarson>	josm seemed to work this time. it does so just often enough to confuse me.
	<avantman42>	My other question: How do I add a place name?
	<Etienne>	avantman42: Remember, you can change this file to suit the things that you want to tag in the way that you want to tag them - you don't just need to follow the way I have been doing it.
	<almien>	place=village, name=Hersham
	<avantman42>	Etienne: I realise that, but having yours to start from makes it a lot easier
	<almien>	there's a list of "place" tags on the wiki (village, town, city, country, etc.)
	<avantman42>	almien: Yeah, but do I just tag a node with that, or do I need to create an area?
	<almien>	node is fine
	<avantman42>	Right, and presumably the name will appear where the node is? Grand, thanks
	<almien>	boundaries are notoriously hard to find anyway (compared to village centres)
	<Etienne>	avantman42: For example, I take copious photos and use the image tag to record the file name of the photo. You may not want/need to do that.
	<avantman42>	Etienne: Yeah, I'll have to have a look at it some time
	<avantman42>	But it's easier to edit a working file than to start one from scratch
	<Etienne>	With Osmarender rules file osm-map-features.xml the name is generally positioned to the right of the node.
	<avantman42>	I'm downloading some data now to try it with
	<Etienne>	avantman42: a working example is always a good place to start.
	<rweait>	Etienne: is there a FAQ or HOWTO for getting started with josm?
	<Etienne>	rweait: Somewhere there are some very good recordings of Imi explaining how to use JOSM.
	<rweait>	Thank you
	<Etienne>	rweait: I think they are at http://josm.eigenheimstrasse.de/ but this is giving me an error at the moment.
	<almien>	maybe the router is being painted again
	<avantman42>	Hmm. According to Map Features, I should use place_name, but Osmarender only appears to recognise name
	<almien>	name is the commonly used one
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	<Etienne>	I'd not noticed the sub-section of places that suggests place_name. Was this added recently? Is anyone using it?
	<almien>	according to (Dutch's???) statistics page, it's used about 20% as much as name
	<almien>	http://www.ostertag.name/osm/stats/060814-a/uk/OSM_errors_statistics-nodes.html
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	* SteveC	wakes up
	<nick_b>	hello again
	<almien>	good morning steve!
	<nick_b>	is the mapping tips session happening
	<Etienne>	nick_b: it's in full swing :-)
	<nick_b>	great
	<avantman42>	I've remembered another question I had: Should I mark dual carriageways & roundabouts as oneway?
	<SteveC>	sounds like a good idea for routing
	<almien>	and should we have a "carriageway" tag that means "oneway, but only because it's half of a road"
	<Etienne>	avantman42: this is a good question.
	<Etienne>	junction=roundabout, oneway=yes seems redundant to me
	<avantman42>	I've marked some as oneway, but wasn't really sure if I should
	<avantman42>	I had an idea I'd seen it mentioned somewhere
	<Etienne>	highway=motoway, oneway=yes also seems a bit redundant
	<tweety_de>	i have a complete mirror of imis josm directory at www.ostertag.name/osm/josm
	<avantman42>	Etienne: I agree, but I had an idea I'd read somewhere that motorways should be tagged as oneway=yes
	* almien	tags motorways as oneway
	<almien>	for fear that some routing software will direct people down the wrong sliproad and put us all in the newspaper headlines
	<Etienne>	So did I, and that is what I have been doing - but I've never seen a two way motorway
	<almien>	a-roads are the ones which can be dual-carriageway, single-carriageway or one-way
	<Etienne>	almien: agreed
	<almien>	"I was only following the GPS" argues russian truck driver after 98-car pile up on the M25
	<Etienne>	almien: that would be a problem with the segment direction, not with oneway=yes, unless he was going down the wrong carriageway.
	<Etienne>	Likewise, I don't bother to tag highway=motorway, car=yes because that is implied by the motorway tag.
	<avantman42>	Should Osmarender mark one way streets in some way? It doesn't seem to be doing so for me
	<Etienne>	But I have seen something like highway=motorway, car=yes, horse=no, moped=no, foot=no, bike=no, tractor=no, ... that seems very redundant to me.
	<Etienne>	avantman42: It does try to. It puts a very small arrow at the very end of any way that is tagged oneway=yes.
	<nick_b>	Etienne: aggreed - such things should be inferred
	<blarson>	Etienne: In calinfornia, bikes are allowed on some freeways.
	<avantman42>	Etienne: Right. Doesn't seem to be visible, even when zoomed in
	* almien	didn't notice the "no bikes" sign on US freeways until motorists told him
	* SteveC	tries to imagine cycling on the 101
	<almien>	Anchorage has a motorway to get from one end of the town centre to the other
	<Etienne>	avantman42: the arrow is narrower than the width of the line and if the line meets another line then it is probably painted over by that.
	<avantman42>	Etienne: Ah, right. OK
	<almien>	so do chevrons mean one-way, or steep hill?
	<almien>	as map standards go
	<Etienne>	almien: "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from"
	<blarson>	I think it was part of us101 that I saw the "bikes must exit" sign on. They are only allowed in sections where there isn't another reasonable route and the sholders are paved and wide.
	<SteveC>	If someone was to add 'highway=minor' support to osmarender, how should it go? 'normal' maps seem to make them look the same as 'highway=residential'
	<almien>	it depends on the gamma setting of your monitor I think
	<almien>	residential looks different to minor on the mac, but not on KDE
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	<Welshie>	did I miss anything? only 1HR 12 minutes late
	<almien>	(light grey area surrounding the road, looks white on PC)
	<almien>	hello Welshie
	<SteveC>	almien, you're saying osmarender does do minor?
	<Etienne>	Google maps shows private roads as greyer and narrower than pulic roads.
	<almien>	minor=unclassified in osmarender I think. and residential = "highway=unclassified, abutters=residential"
	<Welshie>	osmarender can do anything you want it to, apart from make a really good nice hot cup of tea.
	<Etienne>	SteveC: if you want minor roads then edit osm-map-features like this:
s/k="highway" v="unclassified|residential"/k="highway" v="unclassified|residential|minor"/g
	<Welshie>	I think the discussion here is what the current default distribution of the osm-map-features2.xml does
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	<Etienne>	Welshie: can I use that quote? ;-)
	<Welshie>	as for highway=service. I've been using that to denote stuff like privately owned access roads to motorway services, trading estates and the like
	<Welshie>	sure
	* almien	uses amenity=service and assumes it will only be used on large-scale maps showing the east midlands on a page
	<SteveC>	Etienne, on the way back from Bath we deliberately took A roads to try and get some new stuff but looking through, you've done it all :-(
	<SteveC>	Etienne, (we went off the m3, over the m25 to your area and continued east toward redhill, back over the m25 etc)
	<Etienne>	SteveC: me? I went to Banbury recently avoiding the M40 and still couldn't find many roads that hadn't already been done.
	<Welshie>	coverage in my part of the world (North London), I've been looking at osm data so long, I know when I need to switch the GPS off and on, to save on battery and tracklog space.
	<SteveC>	Etienne, yeah I'm pretty sure its you, the massive area in south west london just inside the m25... ring any bells? :-)
	<SteveC>	Welshie, :-) I can drop all that courier data... I've been meaning to
	<almien>	my family live in the next town to Etienne, they still haven't found a road he hasn't mapped
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	<Etienne>	*inside* the M25 its all mine.
	<Welshie>	when was the last ecourier data uploaded?
	<Welshie>	etienne : you sound like landed gentry there
	<SteveC>	Welshie, um... like a year ago
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	<Welshie>	steve: any idea of the extent of the ecourier stuff: did any go much outside M25 ?
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	<Etienne>	almien: I think there's a couple of paths through parks in WOT that I havent done.
	<SteveC>	Welshie, not really
	<almien>	the reservoirs look good
	<Etienne>	almien: You can seem them from space (so they say)
	<almien>	you can see drain-covers from space
	<Welshie>	how about working out that you can drop ecourier points if there's other non-ecourier points within 10m of them?
	<avantman42>	What's the problem with ecourier data?
	<Welshie>	have you looked at central london in JOSM, or the applet?
	<Etienne>	Why is there no mapping in South East London? Does nobody live there?
	<SteveC>	avantman42, its pretty dense and low quality
	<SteveC>	Etienne, check out Lewisham, Nick Hill did all of it but didnt turn it in to ways
	<Welshie>	I did a bit of Southwark
	<Welshie>	only the roads that I knew.
	* almien	looks through the catalog of unmapped cities...
	<avantman42>	SteveC: Ah, right. OK
	<Etienne>	But further out, Blackheath, Bromley, etc, there's nothing.
	<f_mohr>	hi SteveC .. is there a chance to find out who's uploaded some nodes and segments?
	<Welshie>	Tooting is a little sparse too
	<Etienne>	http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/8/88/SouthLondon.png
	<Welshie>	you certainly won't want to drop ecourier data for the hell of it, in areas where there are no other alternatives
	* almien	is going to need a job in scotland, and a car...
	<SteveC>	heh!
	<SteveC>	look at my little reigate patch
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	<almien>	Liverpool and York are the main ones with no data
	<SteveC>	I have an ex in Liverpool so I hate the place... York sounds like a lovely place to map however
	<almien>	you'd get penny lane?
	<SteveC>	almien, I used to live 10 meters or so from there
	<almien>	york is ok
	<almien>	you'd have to walk the walls
	<Etienne>	York would be a great place for a mapping weekend. Hull would also be OK as its very flat and cycle friendly.
	<almien>	actually, I know a load of people visiting scotland all through winter for walking
	<almien>	might be worth giving them some GPS
	<SteveC>	Etienne, when was that render done...? it doesnt have some recent stuff I've done around wandsworth bridge
	<almien>	has anyone marked the Savoy as "drive on the right"?
	<Etienne>	SteveC: July 24
	<SteveC>	ah
	<SteveC>	it's really pretty
	<almien>	Durham would be like 2 people/1weekend,but costs about £60 to get a train to
	<Etienne>	SteveC: I've done quite a bit to the East of the A3 since then. Elmbridge commons is a massive area of green with lots of footpaths and bridleways.
	<almien>	*cough* "horse rides". they hate cyclists there
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	<f_mohr>	how should we handle mapped areas without supporting trackpoints .. i found a strange area in franfurt/germany
	<Etienne>	f_mohr: any clues as to where it came from or who did it?
	<f_mohr>	nope ..
	<almien>	they may have trackpoints on their computer, didn't upload them
	<f_mohr>	it almost too good, has no trackpoints and some errors like death ends connected to the next street
	<tweety_de>	f_mohr: I still have a lot of my tracks not uploaded; Yes shame on me.
	<tweety_de>	f_mohr: And I was driving through FF a year ago or so.
	<Etienne>	maybe put a request on the mailing list and Wiki. If nobody comes forward and "claims" them, then ask someone to look at the database for ownership.
	<f_mohr>	that was no drive through .. if a living area
	<tweety_de>	no, than it's not my fault. Uhh :-)
	<blarson>	Anybody have a handspring springboard? Need a gps for it?
	<f_mohr>	s/if/it's/
	<tweety_de>	blarson: ? what ?
	<blarson>	I got a gps at a swap meet new in box that only workks on that pda.
	<Etienne>	blarson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springboard and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handspring_%28Gymnastics%29 ??
	<Etienne>	f_mohr: Maybe we need to work out a procedure for querying dubious data. Like 1) ask on the wiki 2) ask on the mailing list 3) get an admin to look at the database 4) delete the data
	* f_mohr	will start with 2)
	<SteveC>	the new renderer really slows down the db doesnt it :-/
	* chippy_tim	would be up for York too, only 30mins away
	<Etienne>	SteveC: things have been sloer recently
	<blarson>	The gps is for a "handspring visor springboard" expantion slot.
	<Etienne>	s/sloer/slower/
	<Welshie>	maybe the system is slow because there's so many of us on channel looking at areas
	<Etienne>	blarson: put a post on the talk mailing list - someone might be interested - where are you? US?
	<blarson>	Etienne: Yes, los angeles, california, us
	<Etienne>	blarson: cool, I laid some tracks down from LAX out to Palm Beach, then Joshua Tree, Barstow and Death Valley a few months ago.
	<Etienne>	s/Palm Beach/Palm Springs/
	<blarson>	Etienne: I started making ways from some of the segments.
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	<Etienne>	Great, if you put in a request to Dan I think you can get the TIGER import redirected to an area you are interested in.
	<SteveC>	s/Dan/Ben
	<SteveC>	:-)
	<eckhart>	damn
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	<eckhart>	spot-the-error picture: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Streckennetz_Bayern.png
	* mcn	waves
	<chippy_tim>	tunnels?
	<chippy_tim>	hi mcn
	<eckhart>	no
	<eckhart>	there's a way missing near München (Munich) :-(
	<Etienne>	echert: how did you make this image?
	<eckhart>	osmarender
	* avantman42	goes to bed
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	<eckhart>	railroad in bavaria
	<eckhart>	(parts of, that is)
	<nick_b>	I guess tunnels are going to be an issue for OSM
	<Etienne>	eckhart: cool. Welshie said "osmarender can do anything you want it to, apart from make a really good nice hot cup of tea" - maybe he's right :-)
	<eckhart>	not even a big deal
	<eckhart>	just comment out everything not railroad related
	<chippy_tim>	we can do it like they did on the old paper maps, draw the lines dashed
	<eckhart>	and adjust the scale attribute
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	* SteveC	goes to bed
	* almien	too
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	<nick_b>	so who's left?
	<tweety_de>	goes to bed too
	<nick_b>	chippy_tim: are you set for FOSS?
	* mcn	is left, but i've only just arrived...
	<mcn>	my machine got accidentally rebooted, and i've only just realised I didn't rejoin #osm
	<mcn>	good meeting?
	<Etienne>	nick_b: I'm still here
	<eckhart>	chippy_tim: like this: http://ewsoftware.de/temp/osm/circle1301.png ?