Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20070109/Log

From OpenStreetMap Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
	=-=	Etienne has changed the topic to “Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks”
	=-=	User mode for Etienne is now -R
	<_80n>	Anyone here specifically for the Mapping Techniques IRC meeting?
	|<--	hawke has left irc.oftc.net (Quit: Ex-Chat)
	=-=	marcb is now known as smith
	<smith>	me, me, meee. and me tooo ;)
	=-=	smith is now known as marcb
	<_80n>	OK, got any questions?
	<marcb>	why is the ordering so important, how should everything be ordered and what do I do when a segment of a way is revered one way?
	<marcb>	s/revered/reversed/
	<_80n>	thats three questions ;-)
	<_80n>	Ordering is important because:
	<marcb>	eww, didn't know the allowance was only one ;)
	<_80n>	1. Some renderers rely on the segments being ordered to display captions along the path of the way.
	<_80n>	2. Some people think that ways should be a list of nodes, not a list of segments. And if that is the case, then the *nodes* definitely need to be ordered.
	-->|	eckhart (~eckhart@p549BC2BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #osm
	<_80n>	The answer to your second question is that segments should be ordered nose to tail in the direction of the segments (but you can only see the direction of the segments if you use JOSM *and* have segement arrows switched on).
	<_80n>	You can reverse a segment using the *Reverse Segments* command on the Edit menu in JOSM
	<_80n>	Are you using JOSM or the Applet?
	<marcb>	preferably the applet, JOSM only in the cases you described: to see the arrows. plus to insert nodes into segments
	<marcb>	and to upload .osm files
	<_80n>	The applet would be fine if it were faster. I just find the speed frustrating. Also there are a lot of good features in JOSM that are really useful.
	<marcb>	JOSM breaks with each and every current UI convention.
	|<--	edward has left irc.oftc.net (Read error: Connection timed out)
	<marcb>	the applet is great to set nodes in a city you know and which has yahoo imagery
	<_80n>	I agree that JOSM is a little ideosyncratic but I guess I got over that a long time ago.
	<_80n>	Someone has done a really nice job of drawing the streets of Baghdad using Yahoo imagery
	<marcb>	I saw that. really marvellous.
	|<--	ivansanchez has left irc.oftc.net (Remote host closed the connection)
	-->|	edward (~edward@88-110-109-205.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #osm
	<marcb>	why are all the tiles from osmarender gone?
	<almien>	?
	<marcb>	http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=43.698715295439094&lon=7.279777501176964&zoom=12
	<marcb>	osmarender layer
	<almien>	"too many connections"
	<_80n>	The server says: Warning: mysql_pconnect() [function.mysql-pconnect]: Too many connections in /home/ojw/public_html/connect/connect.php on line 2
	<_80n>	The price of success ;)
	<marcb>	you should just lower the number of apache processes or raise the max_number of mysql connections
	<_80n>	almien: why do tiles requests go through MySQL? Are you storing them in the DB?
	<marcb>	?
	<almien>	tell someone who administers the server
	<almien>	yes, tiles are stored in database
	<_80n>	is that to overcome the number of files limit?
	<almien>	yes, and also to prevent space being wasted by small tiles, and to make updates more atomic
	<_80n>	ok
	<_80n>	why is it running on the dev server and not on the brand new tile server that was purchased for, um, serving tiles?
	<almien>	don't know
	<_80n>	at least the dev server is not down as much as the main site ;)
	<_80n>	The server at wiki.openstreetmap.org is taking too long to respond.
	<almien>	compared to the servers we use at work, the main site is like a dependable rock...
	<marcb>	another question: I have a square with a road around and interconnections. do I split that into many ways?
	<_80n>	I'd guess the current problem is DNS related since the actual box the wiki is running on is up.
	<almien>	before you came in, someone was complaining about a wiki image being referenced from external site
	<_80n>	marcb: you could tag the square as a single way (if all four sides have the same road name). Each connecting road should be a separate way.
	<Elrond>	marcb - You could do one way round and as many ways as needed for the internconnections.
	<_80n>	which image? and why is that a problem?
	-->|	nickb_ldn (~chatzilla@ has joined #osm
	<almien>	don't know
	<marcb>	_80n: you mean on the wiki?
	<_80n>	yes
	<marcb>	that's what SteveC said. http://www.siteduzero.com/index.php has an image embedded from wiki.o.o. Thus everybody who visits their frotpage makes a hit to the osm wiki
	<marcb>	frontpage even
	<almien>	are they so big we can't serve a static image to them
	<_80n>	The image is: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/thumb/c/c6/Reading_uni_whiteknights_campus.png/100px-Reading_uni_whiteknights_campus.png
	<almien>	"100px"?
	-->|	SteveC_ldn (~chatzilla@ has joined #osm
	<SteveC_ldn>	hello
	<_80n>	Hi
	<marcb>	morning SteveC_ldn
	<SteveC_ldn>	tried to make it for 2100, anything happening/ed
	<marcb>	not really
	<SteveC_ldn>	morning... where are you marcb?
	<marcb>	still CET ;)
	<_80n>	some questions about segment direction and ordering of segments in ways
	<SteveC_ldn>	cool, well hows life? I've just come from the wikimedia meetup
	<marcb>	oh cool, tell us more
	<marcb>	never met Jimbo
	* Higgy	has a question, albeit a trivial one: how do we tag numbered motorway/trunk/primary road junctions?
	<Higgy>	can't get to map_features ;)
	<SteveC_ldn>	ah google cache
	<SteveC_ldn>	marcb: bit boring, they treet the UK like south bumfuck, idaho
	<marcb>	*lol*
	<SteveC_ldn>	c'est la vie
	<marcb>	that's by the way how I feel the UK OSM people treat southern Europe ;-P
	<SteveC_ldn>	or is it le
	<SteveC_ldn>	:-(
	<SteveC_ldn>	marcb: that's not intended
	<marcb>	I know, it is open source, and what I need I have to change
	<SteveC_ldn>	marcb: how can we change that?
	<_80n>	we do tend to be far too anglo centric though.
	<marcb>	making the whole worl in the slippy map availabel
	<nickb_ldn>	evining
	<marcb>	http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=46.29793169447221&lon=7.201757422250437&zoom=6
	<marcb>	looks ugly, doesn't it ;-)
	<Higgy>	ok, there's a motorway_junction tag but does it cover trunk road junctions?
	<Higgy>	thanks for the cached link, marcb :)
	<f_mohr>	do we have a restriction label for "Anlieger frei" (in german) = "only for people who have to go there"
	<_80n>	the equivalent term in English is probably: "Access only"
	<marcb>	http://www.fahrtipps.de/img/200/anlieger-frei.jpg
	<SteveC_ldn>	ok I have a map question - how do you tag or otherwise stuff thats not mapped? eg what I do is just add un-wayed segments for roads I dont have a name for, or ad un-wayed segments off into the black fo roads I havnt been down yet
	<marcb>	should be "Access only" in english
	<almien>	would be nice if "notes=" showed-up on some editors, like post-its
	<_80n>	For road stubs I usually add a short segment and a couple of nodes, like this: -..
	<SteveC_ldn>	I added name=FIXME in the past. mistakes.
	<_80n>	I think there is a proposed tag for stub roads - at least there was some discussion about it
	<SteveC_ldn>	s/kes/ke/
	<f_mohr>	i'll add that as a proposal as soon as the wiki is back again
	<SteveC_ldn>	did anyone else have a heart attack finding out about the iPhone?
	-->|	ali (~alilakrak@adsl196-212-82-217-196.adsl196-11.iam.net.ma) has joined #osm
	<f_mohr>	("Access only")
	<almien>	what happened to the iphone
	<almien>	gps support?
	<SteveC_ldn>	apparently so
	<_80n>	I'd like to be able to tag a road as a way so that it shows up on map, but indicate that I have no idea whether its primary, secondary or whatever.
	<SteveC_ldn>	highway=unknown
	<almien>	so it could tag photos and voice notes with a location
	<_80n>	something like that - I guess we need a rule for it in Osmarender.
	|<--	macalba has left irc.oftc.net (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
	<marcb>	any chance the servers are coming up again?
	|<--	Guest694 has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
	* SteveC_ldn	just restarted the wiki
	-->|	Michel (~Michel@ has joined #osm
	<Michel>	hello
	<marcb>	hello Michel
	<SteveC_ldn>	hi
	<Michel>	still on time for tips and tricjs I hope
	<_80n>	Michel: sure, if you have any questions, go ahead and ask.
	<marcb>	SteveC: and this: Warning: mysql_pconnect() [function.mysql-pconnect]: Too many connections in /home/ojw/public_html/connect/connect.php on line ?
	<marcb>	can you restart the database too?
	<Michel>	I wasfirst going to read, but I can think of some questions maybe/probably
	<ali>	How can I tag a main street (avenue) and a small street inside a city, right now I tag both of them as highway=unclassified.
	<deelkar>	I'm getting more of the "Missing segment" errors lately.
	<deelkar>	i.e. Data error: Segment 18.140.268 is deleted but part of Way 4.102.414
	<SteveC_ldn>	gonna have to go, cya
	|<--	SteveC_ldn has left irc.oftc.net (Remote host closed the connection)
	<_80n>	ali: which country are you mapping in?
	=-=	ali is now known as alilo
	<alilo>	i am mapping morocco
	<deelkar>	alilo: did you have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features ?
	<_80n>	alilo: are there any national road classifications for these roads?
	<alilo>	we have two types that i am aware of inside a city, street and avenue or boulevard...
	<deelkar>	I'd vote for using "primary" for those, depending on the function and/or size
	<almien>	http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:TileCoverage.png
	-->|	JohnerH (~J@cpc3-with3-0-0-cust175.bagu.cable.ntl.com) has joined #osm
	<alilo>	deelkar: I have visited mapfeatures, but I have seen on some UK maps that some streets have been tagged as primary or secondary inside the city.
	<deelkar>	but that's my germany-centric view
	<deelkar>	do the streets appear differently on moroccan (sp?) maps? then I'd guess the avenues and boulevards are equivalent to secondary or primary roads of europe.
	<Michel>	well, I was thinking of the following application. You record speech using cellphoen or so about where you are, ... using predefined words you define (before or after). When you arrive home, you use an opensource/... speech-to-text program to translate the tags. If there are any unknown tags, options will eb presented ot choosen at the right moment/in the right way.Points are uploaded. Maybe roads are automatically drawn based on speech, ... I think it is worth
	<_80n>	Maybe unclassified for small roads and secondary for the avenues.
	<deelkar>	since morocco has some history with the french, I'd compare your situation with the french methods of tagging streets.
	<Michel>	Who knows, maybe I'll try to create it in the future
	<deelkar>	I'd tag the avenues differently from the boulevards and those differently from the other roads
	<alilo>	you are right delkar, everything on maps have a history with french and most the classification are coming from france
	<_80n>	Michel: The IPhone looks like it would be a good platform to build this on - it runs OSX
	<deelkar>	makes it easier to bulk-change things later on, instead of having to look at every street
	|<--	nickb_ldn has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
	<Michel>	IS there any news regarding multiple names for a certain road, ... ?
	<alilo>	for example how can I tag the champs elysee in paris, Primary or secondary
	<Michel>	_80n: I just read about the iphone. However, my plain nokia-phone has a speech-recorder and has bluetooth (to tranfer the speech)
	<Michel>	_80n:IF the iphone can be used in a certain way to help openstreetmap, why ot ofcourse ...
	<JohnerH>	Michel, how about a picture diary as well?
	<JohnerH>	Michel, normal digi cam...
	<_80n>	Michel: if the speech notes are tagged with timestamps then it should be easy to sync with tracklogs.
	<Michel>	_80n: my phone doesn't have a camera, but now that you mention it
	<JohnerH>	_80n, a camera could tag the time
	<Michel>	_80n: the speech-recording is just a file, which is tagged with creation-time and duration I believe ...
	<JohnerH>	I apologize maybe I'm talking out of line
	<JohnerH>	\
	-->|	gordo (~chatzilla@hind-grove.demon.co.uk) has joined #osm
	<gordo>	..
	<deelkar>	almien: nice
	<Michel>	Ayway, I'm just presenting ways to automate teh process a little bit or partially anyway, so that a person has to only veify instead of enter the data ...
	<Michel>	opensource speech-to-text exists
	<Michel>	so that isn't a problem
	<Michel>	depending on accuracy ofcourse
	<Michel>	picture-tagging happens already automatically, not?
	|<--	gordo has left irc.oftc.net ()
	<almien>	currently picture tagging requires synchronised clocks between camera and GPS
	<JohnerH>	Michel, I don't know... I'm quite new, I shouldn't have said anything :)
	<marcb>	never heard about any OS s2t software
	<Michel>	me too, but I'mjsut suggesting ...
	<marcb>	almien: you can use jhead to synchronise the exif tags
	-->|	gordo (~gordo@hind-grove.demon.co.uk) has joined #osm
	<marcb>	switch -ta = timeadjust
	<_80n>	JohnerH: welcome - you are not butting in
	<JohnerH>	Reason I'm saying this it's that I'm kinda planning on routing the Buxton Walk paths...
	<marcb>	like Imi suggested: take a photo of the gps-time and then adjust the exif accordingly
	<JohnerH>	Both by pictures....and gps perhaps
	<Michel>	Is the caeraclock not accurate enough?
	<Michel>	camera-clock
	<almien>	if it were all done in a camera, we could use pictures from people who don't like to bother taking a photo of their gps clock ;-)
	<Michel>	depending thet drift is limited
	<deelkar>	is there any way to fix ways with missing segments without privileged access to the osm server/db?
	<marcb>	almien: I already have a collection of them ;)
	<deelkar>	Michel: you could always link the button for the camera to a signal to record a waypoint and synchronise via image nr/maypoint nr
	<Michel>	One could test the accuracy of the camera-clock ofcourse ...
	<deelkar>	waypoint even
	<marcb>	Michel: I can set my camera only to the minute. The exif however stamps the seconds too.
	<Michel>	have to look at mine :)
	<marcb>	so i usually need to adjust 20-30secs
	<_80n>	deelkar: can to take a copy of the way (as a .osm file) then delete the way from the server, and then re-add the way with a new id?
	<marcb>	_80n: if you set the id to 0
	<deelkar>	_80n: at the moment it's one of 19 ways I'm trying to complete to get a consistent data.osm to put in osmgoogleearth
	<Michel>	mie is also to the minute
	<Michel>	indeed
	<Michel>	define an offset before. I need an ntp-server on my camera :)
	<Michel>	or gps ...
	<JohnerH>	Michel, lol
	<JohnerH>	Michel, mind u... thinking about that I'm sure I could program my nokia 9500 to connect to a npt n relay it to my camera...
	<JohnerH>	Having said that....
	<Michel>	JohnerH: phones probably, a dedicated camera ...
	<deelkar>	Michel: camera shutter control via computer, which has ntp and also does the gps tracking ;)
	<Michel>	indeed
	<Michel>	short: a webcam
	<Michel>	:)
	<deelkar>	gumstix or something
	<_80n>	deelkar: if you can successfully delete segments from the way then you can send the way to oblivion by deleting all its other segments
	<JohnerH>	Don't see why that isn't possible
	<Michel>	indeed
	<Michel>	lower resolution, but time-syncrhonized
	<JohnerH>	All I'd have 2 do is create a protocole between my camera n mobile
	<_80n>	So does the iPhone have gps? I can't see any reference that says it does?
	<JohnerH>	n even perhaps upload the data back directly to a home server
	<Michel>	_80n: haven't read that it has
	<JohnerH>	. o O ( I think I'm dreaming too much )
	<Michel>	Anyway, I just hope that there will be tools/desktop-integrated sofware that makes collecting correct data easy
	-->|	Higgy_ (~Higgy@i-83-67-31-70.freedom2surf.net) has joined #osm
	<Michel>	I was even thinking about the area-code-project (I know dirfitng ...), but people that use kontact-managers in linux migh want to share this info with the project partially
	|<--	Higgy has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
	|<--	Michel has left irc.oftc.net (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
	<marcb>	Michel: you were talking about speech-to-text. any pointers for an open source solution?
	-->|	Michel (~Michel@ has joined #osm
	<Michel>	sorry I4m on htoel and the connection soemtimes drops
	<marcb>	Michel: you were talking about speech-to-text. any pointers for an open source solution?
	<Michel>	hotel
	<Michel>	yes
	<Michel>	I even used it
	<marcb>	url?
	<Michel>	let me have a look
	<marcb>	I know (and love) festival.
	<Michel>	sphinx
	<Michel>	I'll havean url in a second
	<Michel>	even (others) another one seemingly than sphinx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition
	<Michel>	http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/cmusphinx.php
	<Michel>	there is also a project that integrates it into kde
	<Michel>	perlbox
	<deelkar>	_80n: currently I only have an ID of the way which is missing segments, I have no idea wether it's a coastline, road, park or whatever.
	<Michel>	they also work on a perl-desktop or so that integrates speed-to-text, .. I believe
	<Michel>	uptill sphinx2 it is X
	<Michel>	C-code
	<Elrond>	deelkar - almien's query page can give you some coords.
	<Michel>	you may be able to compile the java-code to native code (if yo uwant to) with gcj or so
	<Michel>	hoep this helps
	<_80n>	deelkar: so you can't get the way using the API? Right?
	<marcb>	Michel: never heard about it before, but looks good. and is already in debian and OE
	<deelkar>	_80n: I'm using JOSM at the moment, and yes, it can't get the full way by "downloading incomplete ways" because it stops at the missing segment
	|<--	eckhart has left irc.oftc.net (Remote host closed the connection)
	<almien>	http://almien.co.uk/OSM/Tools/Query
	-->|	steve8 (steve8@80-193-41-231.dial.cvx04.basi.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #osm
	<--|	kleptog has left #osm
	<Michel>	march: good luck with it. I may try it again in the future
	<_80n>	deelkar: if you use wget or curl you should be able to get the way directly from the API. Maybe you can then edit it with a text editor and upload the result
	<deelkar>	it's a duplicate (triplicate in fact) of a coastline.
	<deelkar>	so it wouldn't hurt anything to just delete it
	-->|	macalba (macalba@macalba.une.edu.au) has joined #osm
	<_80n>	deelkar: you could hand-craft a .osm file locally and then just upload it using JOSM then
	<deelkar>	I have to read up about .osm then
	<deelkar>	or the api
	<almien>	it's just a URL of the "form http://user%40domain:password/api/way/439" (paraphrased)
	<deelkar>	I just read the wikipage
	<deelkar>	so I'd just have to use http DELETE http://user:pass/.../way/4102414
	<_80n>	yes
	<_80n>	but the delete might fail if there are nodes missing.
	-->|	almien2 (~Ojw@ has joined #osm
	<deelkar>	_80n: so I'd have to change the way into some consistent form and then try and delete it?
	<deelkar>	this is now the second coastline I've come across in a short time that had missing segments
	<Michel>	Is there any news regarding the possibility to give a road, town, ... multiple names?
	<Michel>	For example, Aken/Aachen
	<Michel>	Aen = Dutch, Aachen = German
	<deelkar>	that would be name_nl or somesuch
	<_80n>	deelkar - I don't know - I just know that in the past I had a way that was impossible to delete - so I just removed all its segments
	<Michel>	deelkar: aah ok, it exists
	<deelkar>	Michel: not yet ;)
	<Michel>	deelkar: unfortunately,but ok
	<deelkar>	Michel: currently the tag system just uses the official name, and allows for international names (english) and local names.
	<Michel>	alle ... hoep ti will arrive soon
	<Michel>	deelkar: aah ok, but they are'nt recognized as such by the software I suppose
	<deelkar>	look on the [[Map_Features]] page
	|<--	almien has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
	-->|	Gadicath (~gadicath@dsl-203-113-232-158.ACT.netspace.net.au) has joined #osm
	<Gadicath>	morning
	<gordo>	mooring
	<Michel>	morning (O:02 am here:))
	<deelkar>	related: is there some process implemented on the server to detect and deal with duplicate nodes, segments and ways?
	<gordo>	CET?
	<deelkar>	duplicate nodes = nodes that exist at precisely the same position but have different IDs
	<Michel>	+1 Greenwhich
	|<--	Higgy_ has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
	<Michel>	wich
	-->|	chippy (asc@user-54400698.l5.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #osm
	<Michel>	I suppose
	<gordo>	UTC + 1
	<deelkar>	Michel: yes de, nl is CET now
	<Michel>	ok
	<deelkar>	in the summer it's CEST
	<deelkar>	(UTC+2)
	* gordo	just a few thousand metres from Greenwich
	<Michel>	aah ok
	<Michel>	I'm maybe close to +2 (I'm in Denmark at the moment)
	<Michel>	:)
	<Michel>	don't know where +2 starts
	<Michel>	:)
	<deelkar>	Michel: at 15 deg E
	<Gadicath>	+10 here
	<deelkar>	at the earliest
	<Michel>	Polen?
	<deelkar>	more likely at 22.5°E
	<Michel>	too far?
	<deelkar>	polen runs CET, too, IIRC
	<deelkar>	wikipedia has the list
	<Michel>	Athens is +2
	<deelkar>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Time
	<Michel>	Helsinki also
	<Michel>	anyway
	<Michel>	thanks
	|<--	enxrah has left irc.oftc.net (Remote host closed the connection)
	|<--	steve8 has left irc.oftc.net ()
	<Gadicath>	Anyone using tilesAtHome? I'm not getting decent responses from the server. Wondering if anyone else is getting this?
	<almien2>	dev server is overloaded. no idea why
	-->|	blarson_ (~blarson@ has joined #osm
	|<--	blarson has left irc.oftc.net (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
	<Gadicath>	fair enough
	<deelkar>	almien2: tile uploads seem to work still, but requests says "too many connections" (or similar)
	<Michel>	Gadicath: did you mean -10?
	<almien2>	actually, don't be too sure that tile uploads worked until you see them appear on the map
	<deelkar>	o...k....
	<deelkar>	that explains what saw the other day
	<deelkar>	I even
	<deelkar>	or what I didn't see, rather
	<deelkar>	almien2: did you change something in the php because of the timeouts?
	<almien2>	which timeouts what?
	<Dee>	hi peeps
	<deelkar>	when you first switched from bandnet to dev db I complained about uploads failing because of the long time it took the dev server to process the uploads
	<deelkar>	when the db was loaded
	<almien2>	ok
	|<--	chippy has left irc.oftc.net (Quit: Leaving)
	<deelkar>	which reminds me of a patch I wanted to add to upload.pl to not try to upload a zip over and over, just because the timeout was exceeded
	<deelkar>	you told me then, that the process of adding the tiles into the db would run on, even if the upload.pl aborted due to timeout
	<almien2>	the upload script has a ignore_user_abort() ("I've started so I'll finish")
	<almien2>	upload handler, I mean
	<almien2>	not sure that the PHP reaches that stage before the upload finishes though?
	<almien2>	i.e. the file must be there before it runs any PHP, otherwise the $_FILES variable is meaningless
	<deelkar>	normally a 2 MB zip will upload in under 1 minute, the timeout is several minutes, so I'd guess it should
	<deelkar>	the under 1 minute is the process my upload.pl "sees" (from start of file transmitting to the server closing the connection gracefully)
	<almien2>	it's done everything by then
	<almien2>	although "everything" might involve just printing "error: too many sql connections"
	<deelkar>	well if the db is loaded this process can take in excess of 10 minutes
	* deelkar	goes to look what timeout he has set in his upload.pl
	<deelkar>	in excess of 900 secs even (15 mins)
	<f_mohr>	is the "Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks" logging switched off?
	<_80n>	no, not yet
	<deelkar>	if the apache allows for that, I haven't checked, really
	|<--	edward has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
	<Gadicath>	Michel: Nah, +10 AEST here.
	<_80n>	If there are no more questions for tonight then I will switch it off.
	<deelkar>	Gadicath: so it's 8:35 am there
	<Gadicath>	actually, +11 for daylight saving, 10:35 here
	=-=	_80n has changed the topic to “Turk meets GIS - http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=145”