Proposal talk:Air supported structure
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is a building:structure
IMHO this would fit much better as building:structure=air-supported. —Dieterdreist (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- building:structure=* is already a mess that needs to be cleaned up before being considered usable. The structure has a conflict with the membrane itself. It needs to be eg building:support=* (unfortunately this has different meaning from bridge:support=* , and with multivals or more suffixes considered, as there may be cables supporting it, not only air.
inflated=yes means building:inflated=yes is a possible solution, similar to building:prefabricated=* . But in fact
Inflatable building is different. One has air in the membrane; the other air in the hall. So both needs to be solved. https://www.thefarleygroup.com/blog/what-s-the-difference-between-an-air-inflated-structure-and-an-air-supported-structure.htm
They may be categorized together as pneumatic https://www.britannica.com/technology/pneumatic-structure
Furthermore, eg the Tokyo Dome only has roof being air-supported. Then there needs to be a roof:*=* variant , not building:*=* alone.
—— Kovposch (talk) 05:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)- I don't see why building:structure=* would be a "mess", it has literally 1000 times more usage than "building:support", which isn't even documented. Basically all or almost all building:structure values above 0.2% seem to make sense: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/building%3Astructure#values and probably many of those below as well. Just because there are some typos with high usage numbers doesn't make it useless. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- building:structure=* should be reserved for the membrane. That's what the structure is, in accordance with how building:structure=* is used now. Support is a different aspect. And as I said, both air-supported and air-inflated structures are membranes.
building:structure=* is a mix of different aspects. There are compositions (the compound, which unfortunately building:material=* is used for the facade), structural units (bricks, blocks; bars or beams for frames, but also logs), networking (masonry, frames), reinforcing, layout (confined masonry), surface treatment (plaster, mortar) and even load transfer (load bearing) or working details (whatever "engineered") means.
Using the extreme example of building:structure=load_bearing_brick_wall_in_cement_mortar , why shouldn't building:structure=confined_masonry be building:structure=masonry;concrete ? If the air supported building has steel cables or frames, is it building:structure=air-supported_with_steel_anchor and building:structure=air-supported_steel_frame , or building:structure=air-supported;steel ?
There can also be ambiguities with abbreviations. I wasn't aware "RCC" is used in South Asia. In East Asia where "RC" is used (it can also include plates or fibers not limited to steel rebars), there is the term SRC. This "steel reinforced concrete" doesn't mean steel rebar reinforced concrete. It means there is a steel frame inside the rebar reinforced concrete.
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)- I do not agree that the membrane is the "structure", the structure is the membrane filled with compressed air. "building:support" is not defined at all, and there are only 2 values in use, "pier" and "girder", it looks as if it is the pet tag of an individual, with unclear application. Promoting an undocumented tag (i.e. without definition), which is not in significant use, is the least we should do. I also believe calling the steel cables (for reinforcement) "steel frames" would be completely misleading and should be avoided. A steel frame is something completely different, and refers to the kind of nodes in a steel construction. --Dieterdreist (talk) 12:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- You are confusing "air-supported" and "inflated" structures, as I had before. " membrane filled with compressed air" is inflated. "Air-supported" is a membrane/fabric (maybe "membrane" is misleading) supported by air pressure in the empty space below. The membrane doesn't have air inside. But it needs airlocks. As a result, Tokyo Dome is famous for doors with strong winds (air outflow in positive pressure).
What I'm saying is both building:structure=* and roof:structure=* are used for the thing there, not supporting mechanism. Something else whether building:support=* , building:pneumatic=* , etc should be used. Air-supported structures may be viewed alongside with steel or timber frame support, and tension ("tent" shape pulled by cables only), as fabric structures.
Cable and frame are different things. I should apologize for mixing them up. Steel frame is used in a hybrid structure to hold inflated cushions.
For comparison, tower:construction=guyed_* is used to describe the tension support similar to a hypothetical building:support=* . I don't really understand its logic. Either tower:construction=freestanding_lattice + tower:construction=freestanding_tube , or tower:support=freestanding | tower:support=guyed + tower:structure=tube | tower:support=lattice would have been better.
—— Kovposch (talk) 14:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)- I think "inflated" is a subtype of "air-supported", the latter suggests load bearing is done with compressed air, "inflated" suggests air is put inside something. --Dieterdreist (talk) 16:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.britannica.com/technology/construction
- https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Air-supported_structure
- "Pneumatics can be sub-divided into the two main categories of air-stabilised structures and air-controlled structures (Dent, 1971). Air-stabilised construction can be further sub-divided in to two distinct classes of structure: single wall air-supported and dual wall air-inflated structures (Kawabata & Ishii, 1994). Hybrid pneumatic forms, have been considered and may yet prove to be the most beneficial use of pneumatic technology (Dent, 1971)." https://lsaa.org/images/Members/conf_proceedings/lsaa_1998/Riches_75.pdf
- https://www.architectural-review.com/archive/air-apparent-pneumatic-structures
- https://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid:147c6769-5b2b-4eb7-b4bb-07c1c600a3bc/datastream/OBJ/download
- Better tagging should be found. But that's not how the terminology is used, confusingly.
I would agree with eg building:support=air / roof:support=air + "Supported by internal air pressure" | "Supported by indoor air pressure". That's clearer.
Still, hybrid structures of air cushions on a frame are unsolved. Both the ETFE and steel are visible and significant.
Fundamentally, building:material=* and roof:material=* aren't great, while I understand the issues. Even building:structure=* has a related building:walls=* attempt.
On a side note, I want to mention indoor-air-supported formwork can be used to construct concrete thin shell structures. I hope thin shells are highly recognizable and verifiable too, although the roof:shape=* won't be easily defined.
—— Kovposch (talk) 07:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)- OK, convinced, pneumatic structures can be subdivided into the air-supported and air-inflated systems. Both could be different building:structure=* tags. --Dieterdreist (talk) 11:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I think "inflated" is a subtype of "air-supported", the latter suggests load bearing is done with compressed air, "inflated" suggests air is put inside something. --Dieterdreist (talk) 16:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- You are confusing "air-supported" and "inflated" structures, as I had before. " membrane filled with compressed air" is inflated. "Air-supported" is a membrane/fabric (maybe "membrane" is misleading) supported by air pressure in the empty space below. The membrane doesn't have air inside. But it needs airlocks. As a result, Tokyo Dome is famous for doors with strong winds (air outflow in positive pressure).
- I do not agree that the membrane is the "structure", the structure is the membrane filled with compressed air. "building:support" is not defined at all, and there are only 2 values in use, "pier" and "girder", it looks as if it is the pet tag of an individual, with unclear application. Promoting an undocumented tag (i.e. without definition), which is not in significant use, is the least we should do. I also believe calling the steel cables (for reinforcement) "steel frames" would be completely misleading and should be avoided. A steel frame is something completely different, and refers to the kind of nodes in a steel construction. --Dieterdreist (talk) 12:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- building:structure=* should be reserved for the membrane. That's what the structure is, in accordance with how building:structure=* is used now. Support is a different aspect. And as I said, both air-supported and air-inflated structures are membranes.
- I don't see why building:structure=* would be a "mess", it has literally 1000 times more usage than "building:support", which isn't even documented. Basically all or almost all building:structure values above 0.2% seem to make sense: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/building%3Astructure#values and probably many of those below as well. Just because there are some typos with high usage numbers doesn't make it useless. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)