Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20060711/Log

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Look in the history for the original log this wants to be a a prettified log. Right now the headers are not there to mark the exact place where discussion on this topics begins but rather a small marker of where you should read to get info on this.

Pre ramblings

11 18:56:26-!- lars is now known as LA2
11 18:56:31< SteveC_lappy386> hi lars
11 18:56:39< cjb_ie> Dutch_DK: just over twice per hour, if he stayed awake 24x7
11 18:56:43< LA2> hi all
11 18:56:53< Dee> hi all
11 18:57:03< Dee> is anyone here successfulyl using gpsgate?
11 18:57:03< SteveC_lappy386> is anyone logging?
11 18:57:05< cjb_ie> hej LA2
11 18:57:12< Dee> oh yeah, meeting
11 18:57:13< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: my client logs by default
11 18:57:20< LA2> Thanks to my lobbying efforts, Wikipedia now has an [[OpenStreetMap]] article in Russian and a stub in Finnish.
11 18:57:24< cjb_ie> but let me just check that.
11 18:57:28< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, sweet.. can you paste to the wiki later?
11 18:57:41< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, cool
11 18:57:44< LA2> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap
11 18:57:45< Dutch_DK> Great LA2, here have a cookie...
11 18:57:46< Dee> anyone fancy answering me before we get bogged down?
11 18:57:49< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, the en one needs more work too
11 18:57:58< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: yup, just tailed the logfile and it looks ok
11 18:58:00< SteveC_lappy386> Dee, never used it
11 18:58:19< nickb_LDN> Dee: yes on an acer n35
11 18:58:42< Dutch_DK> Dee, I used it when I was on the other OS... GPSD makes you so spoiled wrt running multiple programs.
11 18:58:58< LA2> Folks should translate it to German and French too
11 18:58:58< Dee> nickb_LDN: hmmm, I'm using it to save NMEA logs to convert to GPX but it seems vary random as to whether it will actually log or not
11 18:59:02< Dee> have you seen that?
11 18:59:09< crschmidt> oh, it's meeting time?
11 18:59:19< SteveC_lappy386> crschmidt, soon
11 18:59:22< Dee> 30s, yes :)
11 18:59:45< Dee> I apologise in advance as I will need to disappear half way through
11 18:59:56< cjb_ie> sigh. i only just got home from work and haven't eaten since lunchtime
11 19:00:00< Dutch_DK> Ahh.. Meeting time.. guess I'll have to stop highway tagging the rest of Copenhagen for now then, and start paying attention.
11 19:00:01< cjb_ie> url for agenda on wiki?
11 19:00:05< f_mohr> @LA2 /me can do the german translation
11 19:00:22< SteveC_lappy386> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Meetings/20060711#Slot_1_.2815_mins.29
11 19:00:31 * Blackadder_uk is back
11 19:01:56-!- Etienne [~80n@] has joined #osm
11 19:02:04< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, hi
11 19:02:23< Etienne> Hello
11 19:02:55 * SteveC_lappy386 thinks we should wait a bit more for imi
11 19:02:55< Dutch_DK> Starting mneeting log.
11 19:03:25< Etienne> Quite a crowd in here tonight
11 19:03:39-!- Irssi: #osm: Total of 30 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 30 normal]
11 19:03:41< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, multi-lingual osm pages on wikipedia have been created
11 19:03:45 * Blackadder_uk opens the windows to let some air in
11 19:04:04< Dee> using the XX:pagename scheme
11 19:04:48< Etienne> SteveC_lappy386: Tout à fait une foule dedans ici ce soir 
11 19:05:45 * cjb_ie wanders off to eat, i'll try and read the scrollback before i weigh in with any mad decisions
11 19:05:53< cjb_ie> or rants or whatever
11 19:06:14< SteveC_lappy386> je ne comprend-pas francais. or something.
11 19:06:57< Dutch_DK> steve, just say "Voulez vous couchez avec moi". It covers 99% of all situations when speaking with french people...
11 19:07:02< LA2> 80n, you should translate http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap to French
11 19:07:25-!- eriso [~eric@81-235-157-76-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #osm
11 19:07:26< cjb_ie> Etienne: ne pas confuser les rosbifs!
11 19:07:44< Dee> hmmm
11 19:07:44 * Dutch_DK bet that was what was said to Zidane on the field yesterday...
11 19:07:52< Dee> screwy road planning
11 19:08:08< Etienne> Google doesn't do Russian to French :(
11 19:08:11< Dee> road bends round to the right with a road comign form the left
11 19:08:22< Dee> the one on the left keeps the same name
11 19:09:20< Dee> are we starting yet?
11 19:09:22< LA2> The translation by Serguei S. Dukachev says OSM was founded by Стивом Костом (Steve Coast).
11 19:09:22 * SteveC_lappy386 votes we start at 1915 BST
11 19:09:28< SteveC_lappy386> Dee, waiting for imi....
11 19:09:35< Dee> ah, fair enough
11 19:09:51< Blackadder_uk> OuvrezLePlandeville
11 19:10:15< Blackadder_uk> got that domain registered yet?
11 19:10:19< Etienne> Someone has been busy in St Petersburg
11 19:10:26< cjb_ie> PlattegrondenOpenDoen!
11 19:10:36< f_mohr> @SteveC picture upload works again .. i just uploaded some images of the RMLL
11 19:10:41< Etienne> Санкт-Петербург = St Petersburg
11 19:10:47< SteveC_lappy386> oh cool f_mohr 
11 19:10:53< sx-wks> evening people
11 19:11:03< sx-wks> f_mohr: you uploaded your tracks ?
11 19:11:35 * Dutch_DK thinks I should get gratisvejkort.dk and point it to openstreetmap.org
11 19:11:37< SteveC_lappy386> f_mohr, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_at_RMLL  ??
11 19:11:52< Etienne> What's in the cage behind the booth?
11 19:11:57< sx-wks> Dutch_DK: good idea :D
11 19:12:02< f_mohr> right .. i'm still editing
11 19:12:48< f_mohr> some sandwitch vending machine
11 19:12:48 * SteveC_lappy386 hopes imi hasn't resigned again
11 19:13:06 * Dutch_DK checks mailing list.. Nope, no rants from imi...
11 19:13:41< Etienne> thinks can you get открытыеуличныекарты.org and point it to openstreetmap.org
11 19:13:47< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: what would make you think that ?
11 19:13:55< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, he's not here?
11 19:14:01< sx-wks> Etienne: .ru mebbe ?
11 19:14:04< cjb_ie> Dutch_DK: but open means so much more than gratis...
11 19:14:14< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: mebbe he had some other errands to take care of ?
11 19:14:44< cjb_ie> surely no-one could have a life outside of osm?
11 19:14:54< cjb_ie> that's crazy talk
11 19:14:58< SteveC_lappy386> madness

Meeting starts

11 19:15:31< SteveC_lappy386> ok its 1915 let's start, I'll kick off
11 19:15:33< Etienne> sx-wks: Yes s/.org/.ru/
11 19:15:37< Dutch_DK> cjb_ie : Yeah, but best translation in this case.. �benvejkort.dk (or rather aabenvejkort) doesn't give the punters the right idea about what it is about. Maybe frievejkort.dk would be better.
11 19:15:58< SteveC_lappy386> following http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Meetings/20060711 I'll summarise what I'm doing, most of it you know anyway
11 19:16:00< cjb_ie> Dutch_DK: heck, just register everything you can think of and 302 it
11 19:16:15< sx-wks> rotfl

Steve Summary

< SteveC_lappy386> Been making the server faster. I have a bunch
of things I want to work on, and we have a spare tile server I have
to comission, and then tile will be decomissioned hopefully we can
integrate crschmidt's work with nickW's help and put it on the new
tile box which I'm told is well-specced I've set up forwarding
addresses at treasurer and donations@openstreetmap.org, these go
to etitenne. the ad's and the donate link will change to an
account that etienne controls asap, though there needs to be a
little bit of coordination on that

secretary goes to imi
and when I set it up, chairman will go to me

< SteveC_lappy386> I'm hoping we can get nickH as the official sysadmin. 
There are some behind-the-scenes talks to get more data in to OSM (think like 
the ecourier data but better) that arn't final. And that's about it I think 
for a summary. Etienne?

< crschmidt> The offer to continue having tiles rendered
not on an OSM server is open,For the record.
< sx-wks> LA2: heya
< sx-wks> crschmidt: working on writing a python/postgresql tile maker :D


Etienne Summary

11 19:20:16< Etienne> Ok, I've been crunching the numbers...
11 19:20:45< LA2> Steve, "I'm hoping" -- is there any problem whatsoever with that?
11 19:21:07< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, no not at all, just wanted to pass it by people here first.
11 19:21:09< Etienne> I took two views.  First a pessimistic survival view and then a more optimistic view of things
11 19:21:16< LA2> go ahead
11 19:21:40< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: "think like the ecourier data but better" <= it all depends what you mean by "better"... better coverage, or better package delivery ?
11 19:21:58< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, that'd be telling. Need to wait for things to be finalised.
11 19:22:07< Etienne> The pessimistic view is that income for the next 12 months will be about GBP 175 and expenditure about GBP 275.
11 19:22:29< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: on that note, i'd like some guidance as to how to make an approach to a fleet management company based near me
11 19:22:38< Dutch_DK> SteveC_lappy386 : can you at least hint at what countries that data covers ? UK only or ?
11 19:22:47< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: in the "better coverage but much worse package delivery" category, you have the choice... UPS, Fedex, ...
11 19:23:05< Etienne> The optimistic view is that income could be GBP 1250 but we'd really like/need to spend GBP 7000
11 19:23:32< Etienne> Oh and currently we have about GBP 50 cash in hand.
11 19:23:40< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, I need to keep my mouth shut :)
11 19:23:50< LA2> 80n, in a project like this, you can always dream about more money, but if you start to base your growth on things that cost money, you will severely limit the growth
11 19:23:54< Dutch_DK> Etienne, could you elaborate on those figures, income from what, expenditure for what ?
11 19:24:12< SteveC_lappy386> I mean Dutch_DK I need to keep my mouth shut. cjb_ie yeah I can help.. email me?
11 19:24:16< sx-wks> Etienne: is that your personal finances you're talking about ?
11 19:24:30< LA2> for example, if Wikipedia would pay 10 cents for every new article (supposing Britannica/Larousse pays 50 dollars per article), Wikipedia would still run out of money
11 19:24:36< Etienne> Income from Google ads (75), pay pal donations (100).  Thats it,
11 19:24:51 * sx-wks shows strong light to SteveC "we hafe ze means to make you talk"
11 19:25:34< SteveC_lappy386> we can do tshirts and posters again, they'll go like hot cakes but are limited in their appeal and timeframe.
11 19:25:49< Etienne> Expenditure in the pessimistic view is just travel expenses for Steve's speaking engagements
11 19:26:08 * sx-wks needs to go talk with that car filming company :D
11 19:26:24< Etienne> Discussion about possible ways of raising money is later on in the agenda - I just want to present the facts right now
11 19:26:30< SteveC_lappy386> On the speaking expenses I should make clear that most places pay travel and accomodation for me
11 19:26:31< sx-wks> (to get big-ass stickers on my car :D
11 19:26:56< LA2> So, we can ask conferences to pay for Steve's travlleing expenses
11 19:27:07< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, most do
11 19:27:22< SteveC_lappy386> oh the other thing - the second anniv get together can that be the last agenda item maybe?
11 19:27:55< sx-wks> erh. btw, guadec next year is in cambridge...
11 19:28:15< Dutch_DK> Etienne, the optimistic view you said we'd really like to spend 7K, based on an optimistic income of 1.25K.. Could you elaborate on that as well ?
11 19:28:17< Etienne> Optimistically we'd like to spend say GBP 4000 on hardware, more on speaker expenses and promotion (GBP 1000)  and a big chunk on legal (1200)
11 19:28:48< sx-wks> Etienne: the reality will be 4000 on legal, 1200 on expenses & promotion and 1000 on hardware :D
11 19:29:01< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, we have friendly legal people
11 19:29:01< sx-wks> (remember, lawyers are leeches)
11 19:29:08< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: hmmm...
11 19:29:19< Etienne> sx-wks: Yes, unless we can find a tame lawyer.
11 19:29:24< Blackadder_uk> Etienne: Can you give a rough breakdown on what the 7k included?
11 19:29:38< Etienne> Blackadder_uk: Just did
11 19:29:44< Dutch_DK> I can understand the necessity on legal expenditure, but are we really that far ahead in the project yet ? Shouldn't the OSMF first be setup, before going to the lawyers ?
11 19:29:46< Blackadder_uk> doh
11 19:30:04< sx-wks> Etienne: 4000+1200+1000 = 6200 .. the remaining 800 are your comissions ?
11 19:30:05< Etienne> I'm looking at the next 12 months
11 19:30:10< nickb_LDN> I think legal consulataiton would be a very good move on our part
11 19:30:15< LA2> Aren't there any young lawyers, groklaw hangarounds, that we could convince to join the project?
11 19:30:22< SteveC_lappy386> Slot 2: Membership: definition, what's required to become a member
11 19:30:28< sx-wks> LA2: good point
11 19:30:31< SteveC_lappy386> I'm not enforcing slots, just pointing out the times...
11 19:30:37< SteveC_lappy386> but maybe I should...
11 19:30:40< Etienne> So I expect we'll have some legal needs during that time - or at least we need to make a provision for  that
11 19:30:50< Blackadder_uk> So the 7k basically keeps the status quo for the properly functioning platform and the support for that platform but not much in the way of development?
11 19:30:55< nickb_LDN> I have spoken to yopung lawyers, but this is specialised stuff that we have to deal with
11 19:31:38< Dutch_DK> Moment.. Groklaw is mainly us-centric. so if the OSMF is going to be a foundation with a US registered address, that would help. If it's going to be in the UK, a UK barrister should be the one contacted for the law stuff.
11 19:32:14< Etienne> Blackadder_uk: 7k is to get us operating legally, keep the servers running (assuming increased demand) and do some promotion
11 19:32:45< Blackadder_uk> Etienne: thanx. So at this point no sums done for going forward beyond that
11 19:32:51< sx-wks> Dutch_DK: my spam folder is ripe with "barrister blah" mails... think any of those useful ?
11 19:33:05< Etienne> But to achive that we need to raise quite a bit more funds - hence item 4 on the agenda
11 19:33:18< SteveC_lappy386> ok item 2
11 19:33:27< Dutch_DK> We've got 1432 registered users, soliciting 10 GBP from each would be a good starting point. Even if only 50 % might respond with the money.
11 19:33:28< LA2> Young Swedish lawyers hang at groklaw/greplaw since there is no similar Swedish website. We need to go out and find the British ones, wherever they are. Friends and fans of Larry Lessig.
11 19:33:33< SteveC_lappy386> Should members have to contribute nodes or time or money or nothing or what?
11 19:33:39< Blackadder_uk> Etienne: Thats what I'm getting at. We really need to be looking for a bit more than 7k otherwise we stand still
11 19:33:52< nickb_LDN> I think that either nodes, time or money
11 19:34:14< nickb_LDN> but we can't enforce monetary donations - its working well the way it is - send a postcode OR send a fiver
11 19:34:39< SteveC_lappy386> postcard not postcode?
11 19:34:41< Etienne> Blackadder_uk: Standing still is the pessimistic view I painted - the 7k view is 7k more than last year.

membertship / voting

11 19:34:41< crschmidt> Except for the fact that the address wasn't published publicly...
11 19:34:54< Dutch_DK> I'm contributing nodes, time and don't mind contributing a yearly membership fee, as long as membership isn't mandatory.
11 19:34:55< nickb_LDN> postcard - but postcodes could work aswell..
11 19:35:06-!- chippy [~chipp2@cpc2-leed10-0-0-cust563.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #osm
11 19:35:07< SteveC_lappy386> crschmidt, id didn't need to be, I said contact me.
11 19:35:17< nickb_LDN> Dutch_DK: agree - membership shouldt be mandatory
11 19:35:30< SteveC_lappy386> how about voting.. you need to be a member to vote right?
11 19:35:48< Dee> membership includes what?
11 19:35:57< Blackadder_uk> Etienne: I realise that but the reality is that with a proper legal and financial footing the project will probably outstreach 7K very quickly
11 19:36:00< Dee> just ability to edit?
11 19:36:01< Dutch_DK> Correct.. Just like in any other organisation. To have a say, i.e. vote, you need to be a member.
11 19:36:18 * f_mohr the same as Dutch_DK
11 19:36:20< Dutch_DK> Dee, no, membership includes the right to vote. 
11 19:36:23< nickb_LDN> Dee: no - ability to vote
11 19:36:26< Dee> ok
11 19:36:34< nickb_LDN> contributing
11 19:36:41< nickb_LDN> , editing etc should be available to anyone
11 19:36:44< Dee> so no voting or editing without a membership
11 19:36:49< SteveC_lappy386> no no
11 19:36:52< Dutch_DK> And the nice warm cosy feeling of participating to keep the project alive.
11 19:36:52< SteveC_lappy386> only voting
11 19:36:55< Dee> ok, I see
11 19:37:25< LA2> Yes, editing should be independent of membership.
11 19:37:44< SteveC_lappy386> so people seem ok with (roughly) what I did with the initial membership?
11 19:37:55< Etienne> Yes
11 19:37:58< Dutch_DK> And personally, I'd say 10 GBP or even 15 GBP wouldn't break most peoples budget for a yearly membership fee.. Just stay home one friday evening.
11 19:38:00< BlackadderLT> yes
11 19:38:16< f_mohr> yes
11 19:38:21< SteveC_lappy386> Dutch_DK, yeah was going to talk about amount.. and this is Etienne's forte too. so 15 UKP?
11 19:38:24< SteveC_lappy386> or is it GBP
11 19:38:37< Etienne> We have attracted 14 members so far - I don't think we will get that many £5 
11 19:38:40< sx-wks> Dutch_DK: how many EUR that is ?
11 19:38:48 * Dutch_DK thinks we should petitin the UK to use ? instead...
11 19:39:03 * Dutch_DK ducks and runs
11 19:39:05< sx-wks> Dutch_DK: and the .dk to use the eur too
11 19:39:07< BlackadderLT> For what its worth I would be happy to pay a membership fee (voluntary donation) on a yearly basis to OSM
11 19:39:08< cjb_ie> sx-wks: 1 GPB == 1.50 EUR approx
11 19:39:19< Dutch_DK> sx-wks NO way.. We like our Krone...
11 19:39:26< sx-wks> Dutch_DK: ya, right
11 19:39:31< LA2> dutch, this is when americans say USD 50 or 100 is a normal annual fee, West Europeans think GBP 10 is ok. But what do Russians think?
11 19:39:39< sx-wks> Dutch_DK: call it Euro-krone whatever :D
11 19:39:42< Dee> is there a list of members?
11 19:39:49< tweety_de> Hi, sorry for being late
11 19:39:57< Etienne> I don't think we can expect, or have the right to expect contributors, to pay with cash as well as with their time.
11 19:39:58< Dee> I never got a notification after donating
11 19:40:04< sx-wks> LA2: align on the bigmac index ?
11 19:40:15< Dutch_DK> LA2, how many russians are providing data at the moment ? How many russians are here participating at the moment ?
11 19:40:17< SteveC_lappy386> so how do we measure the vote requirements... like 100 nodes or 10 gpx files? or do we do it on 'reasonable number of contributions' ?
11 19:40:25< Etienne> Dee: That will change - all donations will be acknowledged
11 19:40:30< Dee> Etienne: ok
11 19:40:34< cjb_ie> Dee: i got one by asking steve on here :-) if you're talking about the £5 to vote thing
11 19:40:49< Dee> yeah
11 19:40:50< Dee> ok
11 19:40:55< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: so I should be able to vote till the end of time :D
11 19:41:01< LA2> We have more Russians than you think.  Look at the map of St Petersburg.  And now ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap is there too, drawing in even more.
11 19:41:14< cjb_ie> sx-wks: no no, that would be an /unreasonable/ number of contributions :-)
11 19:41:15< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, I thought I mentioned the 1 year 'initial term'.. or I hope I did
11 19:41:37 * SteveC_lappy386 wonders who all the russians are
11 19:41:37< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: darn ;D
11 19:41:49< nickb_LDN> OK, so as long as the contributions are voluntary (money or a postcard) it isnt too important the exact amount
11 19:42:05< SteveC_lappy386> ok
11 19:42:32< sx-wks> cjb_ie: you mean, my millions of GPS points and dozens of thousands of nodes ?
11 19:42:41< SteveC_lappy386> if nobody objects shall we move on to 3?
11 19:42:44< Etienne> Can we resolve to get a published postal address for postcards?
11 19:42:50< Dutch_DK> LA2 : If they can afford a GPS to log data with, and a PC to edit on, I'm sure they also can afford 10-15 GBP a year. The old days of poor russians who have to use old fourth hand stuff is over, as far as I've seen on my business trips across the former USSR.
11 19:42:51< cjb_ie> sx-wks: stop making me feel inadequate :-)
11 19:42:53< nickb_LDN> yes - onto 3
11 19:42:58< SteveC_lappy386> (slot3: Basis of OSMF, what legal entity will it be?)
11 19:43:09< BlackadderLT> Need to encourage membership so the basis should be low.
11 19:43:10< LA2> I agree that GBP 5-10-15 is ok
11 19:43:19< sx-wks> cjb_ie: it's just that I started collecting points about 5 years ago :D
11 19:43:28< LA2> especially, since membership isn't required for contributing to the project
11 19:43:38< Etienne> cjb_ie: ...or a postcard
11 19:43:53< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne has more experience than me. Blackadder_uk too I think. I've set up one limited company in the UK and I know a bit about how charities in the UK cannot do political lobby work.
11 19:44:05< Dutch_DK> So why did you then even bring up that point about the russians ?? <homer>D'oh..</homer>
11 19:44:23< LA2> Regarding affording a GPS receiver, we might buy used units on eBay and send them to people who can't afford their own.
11 19:44:25< SteveC_lappy386> <socrates>D'oh..</socrates>
11 19:44:34< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: could we then create a LTD that sells paper maps ?
11 19:44:39< nickb_LDN> So, I mentioned to some people at the london meet that I have solid contacts in the Isle of Man - offshore - if we want to go that route
11 19:44:41< Etienne> SteveC_lappy386: To what extent do you feel that OSM is/should be doing political lobbying?
11 19:44:43< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, I believe so
11 19:44:56< nickb_LDN> it could be a lot more hassle though
11 19:45:05< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, that's an open question. We could be deemed political in our very nature.
11 19:45:06< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: so, we could finance OSM by selling paper maps of open maps :D
11 19:45:22< crschmidt> sx-wks: of course, you'd have to print the name of every contributor on the back ;)
11 19:45:34< LA2> Dutch, only to point out that there is no such thing as a "reasonable" membership fee in an international project
11 19:45:42< sx-wks> crschmidt: haha
11 19:46:03< sx-wks> crschmidt: nope... "(c) the OSMF" ;D
11 19:46:12< BlackadderLT> A lot of projects seem to set two or more levels of membership. I dont like that.. stinks of elitism.  I prefer that all have the same rights
11 19:46:21< sx-wks> crschmidt: like the FSF, everyone affecting copyright to the foundation 
11 19:46:23-!- eriso [~eric@81-235-157-76-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has left #osm []
11 19:46:26< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, we'd need to know in more detail what exactly 'political work' or whatever meant under the charities legislation
11 19:46:26< Dutch_DK> LA2, are you proposing we should forego membership fees, and instead solicit an OSM tax, based on peoples income ??!?
11 19:46:37< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, more legal work :-|
11 19:46:52< sx-wks> that lawyer will be happy :D
11 19:46:56< LA2> Dutch_DK, no I like a membership fee
11 19:47:25< Etienne> OSM is international in scope and as far as the mission statement goes it seems to me to be politically neutral
11 19:47:43< Dutch_DK> Political lobbying for free geodata... Is that the OSMF job, or isn't that what the opengeodata people allready are doing ?
11 19:47:53< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, right, but would the government departments we take down agree with you?
11 19:48:14-!- eriso_lap [~eric@81-235-157-76-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #osm
11 19:48:15< SteveC_lappy386> Dutch_DK, opengeodata == me
11 19:48:34-!- eriso_lap is now known as eriso
11 19:48:37< SteveC_lappy386> Dutch_DK, I think you mean publicgeodata.. which is a bit of a waste of time
11 19:49:00< LA2> Political lobbying for free geodata could mean political lobbying for higher taxes (left) or privatization of mapping (right). So this is no easy issue
11 19:49:20< Dutch_DK> Steve, you can wear more than one hat.. OSMF = Making maps based on free data. SteveC as OpengeodataMan (cape and mask optional) = Making governments publish free data, like Tiger.
11 19:49:41< SteveC_lappy386> Dutch_DK, yeah sure :) I'm just thinking with my OSM hat right now
11 19:50:06< SteveC_lappy386> I think this needs more thought.. should we go away and think about it and come back?
11 19:50:19< Dutch_DK> SteveC_lappy386 : PS.. If you DO wear an outfit with cape and mask, we want pictures on the blog...
11 19:50:35< SteveC_lappy386> but maybe we should deccide the political aspect here or on the list.
11 19:50:48 * SteveC_lappy386 becomes OSM-MAN
11 19:51:01< Etienne> It only affects whether or not we can get charitable status - assuming we can't (for the moment) what form should OSMF take?
11 19:51:01< Dutch_DK> On the list IMHO.. And the Wiki.. It's not something to be dished out on a single IRC meeting.
11 19:51:06< LA2> I personally think political lobbying would be a waste of time.
11 19:51:25< nickb_LDN> We shouldnt limit ourselves to not being able to do politcal lobbying - so lets not go down the charity road
11 19:51:29-!- gebner [~gebner@mk084020161034.a1.net] has joined #osm
11 19:51:31< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, again.. there are options I dont know much about.. ltd by guarentee for example
11 19:51:44< BlackadderLT> OSM will need to argue its corner but thats not lobbying.
11 19:52:09< SteveC_lappy386> BlackadderLT, I'm being cautious pending a definition of lobbying
11 19:52:20< Dutch_DK> Nickb_ldn... We don't.. Because nothing stops the OSMF from supporting another organisation doing the lobbying at a later date. 
11 19:52:28< nickb_LDN> but situations change - politics changes - why limit ourselves to what we can do.  How muchb is there to be gained from being a charity?
11 19:52:28< Etienne> ltd by guarantee is the normal setup for clubs, residents associations, non-profits etc.  They are always members based organisations.
11 19:52:44< LA2> Does the issue of lobbying have implications of tax/donation/"charity" status?
11 19:52:44< SteveC_lappy386> BlackadderLT, for example giving evidence in a select committee or all-party group is not lobbying.. so it might be a loose thing.
11 19:52:55< nickb_LDN> Dutch_DK: dangerous legal ground - we would have to be really carefull
11 19:52:56< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, yes
11 19:53:09< nickb_LDN> LA2: yes, thats what I'm thinking about
11 19:53:24< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, do the members have to be in the UK. BlackadderLT could you talk about the swim club?



11 19:53:27< Dutch_DK> Steve, Etienne. By going the charity road, would the OSMF be eligble to taxfree donations, VAT refunds etc etc ?
11 19:53:37< SteveC_lappy386> Dutch_DK, and more
11 19:54:02< Etienne> To get charitable status you have to make an application to the Charities Commission - they decide, but we need to form an organisation first before we can even do that I think.
11 19:54:13< LA2> I personally would happily throw out lobbying. It's more easy then to say we are "a religiously and politically independent" group
11 19:54:26< BlackadderLT> SteveC_lappy386: yep. I think its more of a case of whether OSM joins the like of the Guardian in speaking out. That would take it beyond looking after itself
11 19:54:48< Dutch_DK> And by not going that route, but just being a membership based club registered as an LTD, would the OSMF not be able to receive taxfree donations etc ?
11 19:54:49< nickb_LDN> Its about how our actions are perceived (manipulated to look like) by other partys
11 19:55:46< BlackadderLT> The swim club I am membership secretary for is a club affiliated with the Ameture Swimming Association. It is not a charity
11 19:56:12< Dutch_DK> nickb_ldn, I feel you are contradicting yourself a bit there. .By going politcal, we have a higher chance of being looked upon as overzealous geeks that can be made fun of and disregarded.
11 19:56:29< SteveC_lappy386> Dutch_DK, that's happened already
11 19:56:33< LA2> Is the Free Software Foundation doing political lobbying? I think we're like them in that we do practical work to create our own free domain, rather than demanding how others (O.S.) should do.
11 19:56:39 * JonS sneaks in at the back
11 19:56:53< SteveC_lappy386> FSF Europe does but I don't think they're based in the UK
11 19:56:59< sx-wks> LA2: they are doing tons of it, notably on the patents issues and things related to copyrights
11 19:57:08< BlackadderLT> The swim club has a constitution, officers, a comittee and members and that is its legal status. It does not need to be a leagal entity beyond that
11 19:57:23< SteveC_lappy386> BlackadderLT, a bank account?
11 19:57:29< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: they're based in Paris, fr. I am a (lowly) member, but knows the figureheads pretty well
11 19:57:48< BlackadderLT> Yes, current and deposit accounts in the clubs name
11 19:57:54< nickb_LDN> sx-wks: who are you on the OSM wiki?
11 19:57:54< Etienne> I propose that we form a limited by guarantee company registered in England and Wales and then explore the possibility of obtaining charitable status later.
11 19:58:05< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, seconded
11 19:58:13< Dutch_DK> Good suggestion Etienne.. 
11 19:58:15< sx-wks> nickb_LDN: user:sxpert
11 19:58:29< nickb_LDN> sx-wks: cheers - I thought you might be
11 19:58:37< BlackadderLT> that gets my support too
11 19:58:38< Etienne> Can we have votes for and against my proposal please
11 19:58:44< BlackadderLT> for
11 19:58:44 * SteveC_lappy386 votes +1
11 19:58:47< LA2> sounds fine with me, etienne
11 19:58:49< nickb_LDN> +1
11 19:58:52< Etienne> +1
11 19:58:53 * Dutch_DK not eligble to vote, but would vote yes.
11 19:58:57< sx-wks> +1
11 19:59:00< JonS> makes sense
11 19:59:03< tweety_de_> +1
11 19:59:07< cjb_ie> Etienne: england and wales for uniformity of laws?
11 19:59:26< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, eng and wales share law, scotland has its own courts
11 19:59:35< cjb_ie> i take it this is a standard uk thing...
11 19:59:37< BlackadderLT> Where the company is registered makes a difference to charitable status etc
11 19:59:38< Dutch_DK> ... and better whisky...
11 19:59:48< Etienne> cjb_ie: The choice is "England and Wales" or "Scotland" or somewhere else...
11 19:59:57< tweety_de> so which country would be the bestto register ?


Isle of Man

11 20:00:00< BlackadderLT> Isle of Man
11 20:00:16< Dutch_DK> Monaco...
11 20:00:23< Etienne> BlackadderLT: What are the benefits of IoM?
11 20:00:24< SteveC_lappy386> Outer Mongolia
11 20:00:25< f_mohr> lichtenstein
11 20:00:39< tweety_de> pse get focused again
11 20:00:50< nickb_LDN> Ok - well I could look into that - serioulsy - what have benifits like tax saving, a far less invasicve government, dont know how good it would be for us though
11 20:01:01< nickb_LDN> its usually gambling companies that are registered there
11 20:01:18 * cjb_ie votes +1   - if eng&wales turns out to have problems, it's always possible to transfer the assets to an IoM-based co.
11 20:01:23< SteveC_lappy386> Item 4: Priorities for spending any funds we may or may not have  &&&  Fund raising ideas and discussion
11 20:01:30< BlackadderLT> From all those I know in business who have IoM reg companies they say dealing with international transactions is easier
11 20:01:31< JonS> there are lots of companies that'll do eng&wales formations very quickly and with little cost
11 20:01:54< SteveC_lappy386> JonS, yes... like 70 or 80 quid
11 20:02:00< JonS> seems a bit expensive
11 20:02:03< BlackadderLT> And u can pick up an IoM company just as easy as a E, W or S one
11 20:02:07< nickb_LDN> Blackadder: yes the laws are a lot less invasive
11 20:02:09< Dutch_DK> Blackadder, good point, since lot of members would be outside the UK
11 20:02:19< sx-wks> guess we could also have a french law of 1901 organisation
11 20:02:20< SteveC_lappy386> Do you not have to be an IoM resident?
11 20:02:24< BlackadderLT> IoM probably nearer 200 quid my guess
11 20:02:32< BlackadderLT> SteveC_lappy386: No
11 20:02:50< nickb_LDN> SteveC_lappy386: you have to have one resident (Nickb_LDN) and one regisitered accountant
11 20:03:05< nickb_LDN> theer are lots and lots and lots of accountatns on the IoM
11 20:03:28< Etienne> one resident as an officer or just as a member?
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11 20:03:54-!- eriso [~eric@81-235-157-76-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #osm
11 20:03:57< sx-wks> (nickb_LDN is now actively preparing his accountant test)
11 20:04:03< nickb_LDN> Etienne: one resident who is an officer I think - but they dont actually have to do anything
11 20:04:16 * nickb_LDN has a calculator at his side
11 20:04:39< BlackadderLT> There are businesses on the IoM just doing this. They offer the lot as a package
11 20:05:06< nickb_LDN> really - I hadnt heard of them  dosnt surprise me though
11 20:05:09< Etienne> Is anyone volunteering to look into the IoM situation and make a report to the OSMF?
11 20:05:16 * nickb_LDN volunteers
11 20:05:30 * SteveC_lappy386 votes for nickb_LDN 
11 20:05:37< sx-wks> +1
11 20:05:39< Etienne> +1
11 20:05:49< nickb_LDN> you have to be voted to volunteer - we take democracy to a new level

Item 4: Priorities for spending any funds we may or may not have &&& Fund raising ideas and discussion

11 20:06:16< SteveC_lappy386> Item 4: Priorities for spending any funds we may or may not have  &&&  Fund raising ideas and discussion
11 20:06:25< cjb_ie> nickb_LDN: the votings will continue until morale improves.
11 20:06:27< Dee> take 2
11 20:06:33< SteveC_lappy386> fund ideas: nickb_LDN and I and tom have some sweet tshirt ideas
11 20:06:44< Etienne> nickb_LDN: Thank you.  Can you make some enquiries and let us know - we'll hold off company formation until we hear from you
11 20:06:47< Dee> id be up for buying some of them
11 20:06:51< nickb_LDN> Etienne: will do
11 20:07:04< SteveC_lappy386> the poster proved awsome and got us lots of press too. A longer run of that would be great.
11 20:07:10 * f_mohr would like some t's too
11 20:07:12< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: "I am an OSM surveyor... if you see me running, I'm calibrating my GPS" ?
11 20:07:15< SteveC_lappy386> would have to be adifferent poster, but same idea
11 20:07:45< SteveC_lappy386> the current shop.openstreetmap.org gets no hits or buys... it's really badly designed and needs to be religated
11 20:07:57< JonS> SteveC: have you seen the map of the internet posters? they release a new one each year
11 20:08:05< tweety_de> I think if we could combine good press (Posters) and Fund Raising would be great
11 20:08:08< SteveC_lappy386> JonS, yes I used to make them
11 20:08:09< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: well, duh, it's not really linked from anywhere :('
11 20:08:12 * f_mohr proposes something like node density for europe as a poster
11 20:08:14< JonS> how about a periodic release of the poster
11 20:08:17< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, what's not linkes?
11 20:08:24< Dee> SteveC_lappy386: wasn't even aware shop. existed
11 20:08:30< SteveC_lappy386> JonS, yeah
11 20:08:57< cjb_ie> Dee: ditto
11 20:09:00< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: for instance, there's no *prominent* link to the shop from the front page
11 20:09:05< Dee> is it worth contacting think geek that sell lots of stuff liek that
11 20:09:07< tweety_de> What about a sticker with something like "OSM-Explorer" for your car. And in small letters explaining the basics of the project.
11 20:09:07< LA2> At my local print shop (Arkitektkopia.se) "prints" in size A2 are 50 euro, but "plots" in the same size are 12 euro.
11 20:09:14< Dee> so what they think would sell?
11 20:09:23< BlackadderLT> nickb_LDN: I will call those I know with IoM businesses and get some details. I think they all use the same guys
11 20:09:30< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: besides, a cafepress shop may be interesting
11 20:09:41< SteveC_lappy386> Dee, my experience is do it yourself... we found some contacts to do things at a discount. The organisation of posting etc is a pain though
11 20:09:41< cjb_ie> LA2: difference being how much ink is used?
11 20:09:42< nickb_LDN> BlackadderLT: we should talk by IM or email 
11 20:10:03< sx-wks> LA2: ROTFL
11 20:10:08< Dee> SteveC_lappy386: we could send them a load as well
11 20:10:08< LA2> no, the difference is if they use " a printer" or "a plotter" (for engineering drawings) to put the ink on paper
11 20:10:17< JonS> been grepping some old mail - http://www.quickformations.com/ for company formation - pretty cheap
11 20:11:00< LA2> But my input is a PDF file in both cases
11 20:11:22< SteveC_lappy386> ooo pictures: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_at_RMLL
11 20:11:37< cjb_ie> LA2: and the output of both looks suspiciously like inkjet printing?
11 20:11:44< SteveC_lappy386> ok anyone have time to help/help organise tshirts and posters?
11 20:12:03-!- filc [~ukpgc@spc1-cosh3-0-0-cust954.cosh.broadband.ntl.com] has joined #osm
11 20:12:10< sx-wks> cjb_ie: of course .D
11 20:12:20< SteveC_lappy386> what about spending priorities?
11 20:12:24< Etienne> T-shirts or cycle jerseys should be obligatory for anyone surveying by bike...
11 20:12:25< Dee> I can help but im not able to take on it all
11 20:12:30< LA2> I didn't make any "print" to compare with. My "plot" of Northern Europe looked quite alright. http://aronsson.se/img/osm-200607-neur-a2-color.pdf
11 20:12:39< Dee> and sorry, but i have to disappear now
11 20:12:52< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, yeah.. printing builders logos on flourescent jackets is already done right? just need some with OSM's logo?
11 20:12:58< tweety_de> I'll try to help on T-Shirts too
11 20:13:34< JonS> Etienne: I can get tshirts printed (and arranged the shop.osm site too) but the layout is far from ideal for what we're pushing, and there's a lack of designs (I don't have an artistic bone in my body)
11 20:14:24< SteveC_lappy386> spending priorities: hardware vs speaking (minimal I hope) vs legal
11 20:14:29< SteveC_lappy386> and setup of the company...
11 20:14:47< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: that's sounds like a cool one. we need the logo on white hard hats to go with that (and infiltrate building sites without being spotted / challenged)
11 20:14:49< SteveC_lappy386> or ltd by guarentee thing
11 20:15:12< JonS> sx-wks: ha ha ha ha
11 20:15:15< Etienne> Company setup should be pretty minimal
11 20:15:25< f_mohr> just a dumb question .. how does setting up a company help with that charity thing .. didnt get that earlier
11 20:15:28< JonS> there's a building site up the road from me - we have the roads before teleatlas ;-)
11 20:15:54< sx-wks> JonS: heh
11 20:16:04< JonS> Etienne: between �40 and �190 at www.quickformations.com
11 20:16:25< Etienne>  f_mohr: A charity is one form of company that has special tax exempt status
11 20:16:26< JonS> unless there's any great need I'd say go ith the cheaper option
11 20:16:31< LA2> Are we having any more decision points on the agenda?
11 20:16:37< f_mohr> ok
11 20:16:38< sx-wks> JonS: of course, being equipped with one of those overpriced trimble receivers on a pole would be even better :d
11 20:16:57< JonS> make your own
11 20:17:09< sx-wks> JonS: ha ha ha

Economic split

11 20:17:32< Etienne> I think we need to try to agree a percentage of budget for each of a) legal b) hardware c) promotion/speaking
11 20:17:53< SteveC_lappy386> a) 10 b) 70 c) 20
11 20:18:09< tweety_de> 20 70 10
11 20:18:12< LA2> 50 50 50
11 20:18:13< Etienne> a) 20 b) 60 c) 20
11 20:18:24< filc> a) 20 b) 70 c) 10
11 20:18:28< Etienne> LA2: rofl
11 20:18:43< f_mohr> 20/60/20
11 20:18:55< sx-wks> LA2: you have your priorities misplaced... 300 / 50 / 50
11 20:19:04< nickb_LDN> sx-wks: i agree
11 20:19:20< JonS> sx-wks: are you a lawyer? ;-)
11 20:19:21< cjb_ie> 20/60/20 sounds good to me
11 20:19:22< nickb_LDN> 40 30 30
11 20:19:27< Etienne> Are there any other expense categories that anyone can think of or thinks important?
11 20:19:36< cjb_ie> Etienne: hosting?
11 20:19:41< LA2> seriously, if we have a budget of X GBP, the board can use 50% of it for any single purpose (legal/hardware/propaganda) without having any trouble.
11 20:19:43< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, I'm happy with what you specced... it's not going to be perfect in any case
11 20:19:44< tweety_de> I would place my priorities 0 300 0, but I see that we probably will need legal in the near future
11 20:19:53< sx-wks> JonS: no, but I know a few, and they always take the larger share of the budget in any case (until you try to set up SAP)
11 20:19:56< cjb_ie> Etienne: are we going to have free hosting forever?
11 20:20:09< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, forever minus a day
11 20:20:31< tweety_de> great !!
11 20:20:36< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, more seriously we have no immediate worries, or any out to 6/12/18 months  I would say, so long as we are nice.
11 20:21:00< tweety_de> that's reasonable toot
11 20:21:02< f_mohr> is there something like that in the uk? http://www.ifross.de/
11 20:21:12< JonS> given that I'd not worry about it unless the situation changes then
11 20:21:33< JonS> or shows signs of changing
11 20:21:35< SteveC_lappy386> f_mohr, what is that?
11 20:21:41< nickb_LDN> f_mohr: I dont know - I cant understand it
11 20:22:24< tweety_de> in a quick view it sound like a trial against ... because of patent enfridgment. Did I get that right?
11 20:22:36 * f_mohr was just looking for a translation .. its a institude to assist os prj inn law questions
11 20:22:54< SteveC_lappy386> f_mohr, nothing formal in the UK I'm aware of
11 20:23:21< tweety_de> Sorry I was just kloking at the "trial" on the fronntpage ;-) not the organisation
11 20:23:28< f_mohr> i met one of their layers at the linuxtag last year
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11 20:24:53< Etienne> A rough average of the proportions suggested comes to 23/55/22
11 20:24:58< SteveC_lappy386> so vote for something along the lines of etiennes split 20/60/20?
11 20:25:01< SteveC_lappy386> +1
11 20:25:04< sx-wks> +1
11 20:25:08< f_mohr> +1
11 20:25:11< BlackadderLT> +1
11 20:25:11< Etienne> +1
11 20:25:12< tweety_de> +1
11 20:25:28< nickb_LDN> +1
11 20:25:37< cjb_ie> +1
11 20:25:54< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, you have a mandate
11 20:25:54< filc> +1
11 20:25:56< Etienne> Ok, we'll go with that then
11 20:26:09< LA2> +1
11 20:26:44< Etienne> I propose to open a discussion on the mailing list and a wiki page for encouraging ideas about fund raising.
11 20:27:23< SteveC_lappy386> +1
11 20:27:26< cjb_ie> Etienne: does that even need a vote? i would say you're the treasurer, do it
11 20:28:00< cjb_ie> but +1 if necessary.
11 20:28:03< Etienne>  cjb_ie: Thats what I'm saying - I will do it.
11 20:28:26< cjb_ie> ah. misunderstood 'propose'. my bad.
11 20:28:38< Etienne>  I _will_ open a discussion on the mailing list and a wiki page for encouraging ideas about fund raising.
11 20:29:56< SteveC_lappy386> last two slots: any other business.
11 20:30:13< SteveC_lappy386> I'll kick off.. any thoughts on the 2nd anniv. meet up? Who's coming?
11 20:30:27< nickb_LDN> \me so excited I cant sleep
11 20:30:37 * nickb_LDN shame
11 20:30:37< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: i hope to, subject to swmbo logistics
11 20:30:57< tweety_de_> I' still trying 
11 20:30:58< Etienne> When is it?
11 20:31:10< cjb_ie> sat aug 12th
11 20:31:45< Etienne> In Covent Garden?
11 20:31:49< nickb_LDN> The pub that was mentioned - THe Porterhouse - is pretty nice - but it gets really bussy
11 20:32:05< nickb_LDN> It might be nice to be somewhere more open - outside ish
11 20:32:06< f_mohr> i'd like to .. but can't
11 20:32:14< BlackadderLT> not a prolem the gps's only work outside ;-)
11 20:32:21< nickb_LDN> true
11 20:32:21< cjb_ie> nickb_LDN: particularly on saturdays, at a guess...
11 20:32:35< nickb_LDN> cjb_ie: yes - rammed to the max
11 20:32:40< cjb_ie> could we reserve a room in some suitable place of ill repute?
11 20:32:50 * SteveC_lappy386 votes the foundation gets imi over for it too, so the board can meet etc
11 20:32:54< nickb_LDN> cjb_ie: thats a good idea
11 20:33:07< Etienne> +1 (where is he BTW)?
11 20:33:15< nickb_LDN> yes - meeting in person achieves a lot 
11 20:33:21< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, deutcheland
11 20:33:45< Etienne> SteveC_lappy386: I meant where is he tonight?
11 20:34:23< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, oh... no ides :-|
11 20:34:32< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, he's not even on IM
11 20:34:39< tweety_de_> i thought he would write the protocol ;-)
11 20:34:41 * f_mohr just looked .. 18.99 EUR munich - london ... that would be in the budget
11 20:35:03< tweety_de_> sounds good. Can you book 2 flights ?


11 20:35:10< SteveC_lappy386> ok another AOB thing: how do we make it more international? I was thinking getting different language talk lists and wiki pages?\
11 20:35:14< tweety_de_> I'll pay mine by myself
11 20:35:35< nickb_LDN> Well I think the first stage is not to impose fees - which we have done - then to shout as loud as we can
11 20:35:36< tweety_de_> I think this would split it up too much
11 20:35:56< nickb_LDN> we got so much publicity in a couple of weeks for the IoW
11 20:35:56< Etienne> Does laying down a few tracks in a place encourage locals to get involved?
11 20:35:57< f_mohr> @tweety_de_ http://www.billig-flieger-vergleich.de/billigflieger/billigflieger-von-MCnchen-nach-London-Stansted.html
11 20:36:00< tweety_de_> I think it would be enough to have the how do i start and what's it all about in different languages
11 20:36:03< SteveC_lappy386> tweety_de, but what about people in the EU who don't like or know English?
11 20:36:24< nickb_LDN> SteveC_lappy386: and further afield
11 20:36:34 * SteveC_lappy386 nods
11 20:37:30< tweety_de_> I hope in the EU (exept FR) ther should not be too much problem with english
11 20:37:34< Etienne> Why is there a lot of activity in Scandinavia - how can we replicate that in other regions?
11 20:37:45< SteveC_lappy386> like spain and portugal
11 20:37:49< tweety_de_> At least not in the younger technical interested  generation
11 20:38:03< SteveC_lappy386> I think lars is responsible for single-handedly doing all of it or something.
11 20:38:04< LA2> Steve, at this stage we are pulling in hacker types, and they speak English. We need 10 or 20 from each country. After this, local language adoption becomes an issue.
11 20:38:06< nickb_LDN> its those long winter nights in NW Europe - nothing else to do other than browse...
11 20:38:22< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, ah you think it's too early?
11 20:38:28< tweety_de_> LA2, yes
11 20:38:29-!- TeLLuS [~johan@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11 20:38:33< nickb_LDN> LA2: Agree - but we do need to move out of the hacker only sphere
11 20:38:36< tweety_de_> SteveC, yes
11 20:38:36< LA2> Etienne, you need to convert them to lutheranism...
11 20:38:54< tweety_de_> we first have to have all fast, stable running
11 20:39:06< nickb_LDN> tweety_de: i agree
11 20:39:17< sx-wks> tweety_de: +1
11 20:39:26< tweety_de_> and my estimate is: not befone in a half year (ultra optimistic)
11 20:39:29< nickb_LDN> but its bit by bit - a few more members, better performance...
11 20:39:40< Etienne> We won't get beyond the hacker types until the tools are easier and more comfortable to use and give instant gratification
11 20:39:50< tweety_de_> eriso, yes
11 20:40:24< SteveC_lappy386> oh btw if anyone needs a place to stay after the 2nd annive I can put people up
11 20:40:27< tweety_de_> so one goal would be to have more planet.osm (weekly)
11 20:40:40< SteveC_lappy386> tweety_de_, I'm working on int
11 20:40:47< SteveC_lappy386> s/int/it
11 20:40:52< tweety_de_> SteveC, I would be glad ( if i can make it)
11 20:41:03< Etienne> weekly is not instant gratification
11 20:41:04-!- Irssi: #osm: Total of 35 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 35 normal]
11 20:41:04< filc> the map front end needs a better interface, with searching working too... otherwise hackers only 
11 20:41:04< f_mohr> mnthly would be fine enougth
11 20:41:11< tweety_de_> SteveC, I know, but i think these are important things
11 20:41:16< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: heh, you do realise there's 35 on channel right now?
11 20:41:25< sx-wks> we need a more advanced editor that 'looks nice' (aka shows stuff as they look like in OSM renderer
11 20:41:26< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, cool innit
11 20:41:39< cjb_ie> bet that'd be a full stevec-house
11 20:41:39< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, thats what the applet is supposed to do
11 20:41:43< SteveC_lappy386> SUPPOSED
11 20:41:55< tweety_de_> I'm alway trying to convince the gpsdrive people to join osm too.
11 20:41:57< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, I had hoped we'd have a flash-based editor by now
11 20:41:58< LA2> I think we do have 10-20 contributors in some countries that we don't know of because they are silent on the mailing lists and wiki.
11 20:42:14< SteveC_lappy386> tweety_de, yes.. and gpsdrive needs OSM integration (and a better UI :)
11 20:42:18< LA2> In these cases, we need to make them speak up and "come out" of the closet.
11 20:42:20< cjb_ie> there are certainly at least two or three in ireland that i've not managed to make any contact with
11 20:42:24< Etienne> LA2: Like where? Russia?
11 20:42:28< cjb_ie> i'm sure bigger countries have a lot more.
11 20:42:34< nickb_LDN> LA2: what do you propose?
11 20:42:40< tweety_de_> SteveC, I know
11 20:42:41< LA2> I have no good idea
11 20:42:51< SteveC_lappy386> so damn... we havn't talked about privacy. if we have a privacy policy then the editors can just tell you who is editing near you
11 20:42:58< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: hmmm. I'd prefer a mozilla canvas based editor. I don't really grok either java nor flash on my 64 bit boxes
11 20:42:59-!- FredB [~fred@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11 20:43:07< Etienne> cjb_ie: Maybe one of those is me - I'm in Dublin right now
11 20:43:13< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, canvas == sssllllooooowwwwwww
11 20:43:15 * f_mohr also still wonders who contributed some tracks in my area
11 20:43:24< tweety_de_> I know at least 4 in Germany, which are not on the list, but contributing
11 20:43:37< cjb_ie> just look at ireland and uk together on crschmidt's map ... http://cjb.ie/ireland for a 302
11 20:43:43< nickb_LDN> More local events maybe - to encourage local based participation
11 20:43:48< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: wait till they improve the cairo code :D
11 20:43:59< sx-wks> f_mohr: I presumably did
11 20:44:05 * BlackadderLT thinks Etienne is going for the "track in each country on the planet" award
11 20:44:12< cjb_ie> ireland has, at a rough guess, 5 mappers. (of whom i've contacted one, other than myself)
11 20:44:20< cjb_ie> damn, i wish i still had my cuba tracklogs
11 20:44:26< LA2> Related to privacy is the issue of wikiness.  On a wiki I expect to be able to revise history and to have a discussion with other contributors. I do have this on the OSM wiki, but not in the OSM map interface. I have several places where I ask "who contributed this tracklog"? I don't need to invade that person's privacy, only to send a question to them.
11 20:44:27< tweety_de_> I think to motivate people should be a task for everyone for his own country
11 20:44:32< tweety_de_> But also this will take some time
11 20:44:40< tweety_de_> and gratification
11 20:44:48< f_mohr> @sx-wks i know .. but there are others
11 20:44:50< Etienne> BlackadderLT: 9 countries so far...
11 20:44:55< sx-wks> f_mohr: hah
11 20:45:35< tweety_de_> Maybe we would give it a start if some people say: You want to download a free map goto: openstreetmap.org
11 20:45:50< tweety_de_> As soon as the maps are good enough to show
11 20:46:23< tweety_de_> But I think what we really need (currently) are coders.
11 20:46:35 * f_mohr still hopes some people that want a free map for their website use osm and the tools to do that
11 20:46:41< BlackadderLT> We have a few places good enough to show off now. We should promote some "finsihed" areas as soon as we can
11 20:46:51< Etienne> tweety_de_: I think that's really important - when people see good product then they will be attracted to the project
11 20:47:00< tweety_de_> Because things like the Water recognition from Sat Photos would improve the Maps dramatically. But it needs a coder todo it
11 20:47:17< nickb_LDN> tweety_de: what do you mean?
11 20:47:18< BlackadderLT> f_mohr: agree with you on that
11 20:47:24< sx-wks> Blackadder_uk: I was showing off at the RMLL with some of the UK productions... 
11 20:47:34< BlackadderLT> cool
11 20:47:44< SteveC_lappy386> sx-wks, did you map near RMLL?:)
11 20:47:53< tweety_de_> I think we have to get to the point wher people comming to OSM have to have the first impression of: Wow that almost everything mapped. I can get there free maps for download
11 20:47:56< sx-wks> SteveC: yeah
11 20:48:00< Etienne> BlackadderLT: The finished areas are quite "local" - what can be done to promote them locally?
11 20:48:11 * f_mohr too .. but not uploaded yet
11 20:48:17< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: I had the tracks showing on the mini screen f_mohr lent me :D
11 20:48:24< tweety_de_> And only in the near region of themselfes find out well my area could need more improvement (Streetnames for example)
11 20:48:38< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, local tourist board, businesses, local paper... all hard work talking to lots of people I imagine
11 20:48:42< nickb_LDN> Etienne: local newspapers, community groups etc
11 20:48:46< BlackadderLT> Etienne: I was thinking more of using the finished bits to promote OSM through more routes
11 20:48:53< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, given that lots of people dont even know wikipedia exists still
11 20:49:02< nickb_LDN> people who currently take a screenshot of google maps and paste it onto their publications
11 20:49:16< tweety_de_> I think what would give OSM a little publicity boost would be to map all great autobahnen in each country.
11 20:49:20< nickb_LDN> SteveC_lappy386: for real
11 20:49:22< nickb_LDN> ?
11 20:49:26< tweety_de_> And name these for the first step. 
11 20:49:27< SteveC_lappy386> tweety_de, finished in the UK :)
11 20:49:35< sx-wks> tweety_de: yeah, working on this for .fr
11 20:49:40< BlackadderLT> Even my kids didnt wknoe about wikipeadia and when I set up a wiki for our swimming club the 500 members said... what?
11 20:49:44< SteveC_lappy386> nickb_LDN, yeah.. I meet lots of people who've never heard of wikipedia
11 20:49:47< tweety_de_> Normally everyone finds his home if he sees all Highways arround him
11 20:50:10< nickb_LDN> I guess its easy to forget that
11 20:50:19< tweety_de_> Yea, the Highways is a good start.
11 20:50:24< Etienne> tweety_de_: Motorways are done in the UK but no-one has produced a simple map showing them all yet.
11 20:50:29< sx-wks> tweety_de: problem is, they're non free here, so you really *need* to go where you're going... and doing all the exits for fun is a no no
11 20:50:36< tweety_de_> I think the next step is to get every mayor Road (with or without names)
11 20:50:46< BlackadderLT> Joe public sees the internet just as one big pot.
11 20:50:59< tweety_de_> doesn_t osm-pdf-atlas work?
11 20:51:08< f_mohr> @sx-wks some are free .. like nancy - metz
11 20:51:35< sx-wks> f_mohr: yeah, as usual, the exception confirming the rule :D
11 20:51:53< tweety_de_> What I did: I told all my friends to take gps receivers with them and give me the tracks
11 20:52:06< LA2> Any more decision points today?
11 20:52:11< tweety_de_> This works. It's a lot of work, but it slowly starts to get feedback.
11 20:52:19< Etienne> In the uk most motorways have many many lots of tracks - is that not the case anywhere else?
11 20:52:19< SteveC_lappy386> anyone interested in Isle of Wight 2.0 ... but somewhere in Europe?
11 20:52:30< cjb_ie> isle of ireland? :-)
11 20:52:37< f_mohr> interested
11 20:52:38< tweety_de_> And that's also the readon I ordered 5 NaviGPS on Fryday. Just to give them to all my friends when the go for a drive.
11 20:52:38< filc> need a better introduction to GPS ing.  Really with a "this is what you need" kit of parts
11 20:52:43< sx-wks> tweety_de: I tried to create interest in participating in the project at the RMLL and had great success
11 20:52:46< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, oh yeah, you're in Europe now :)
11 20:53:00 * SteveC_lappy386 wants to be tweety_de's friend
11 20:53:22< nickb_LDN> filc: I talked with David Groom about that on the IoW, but I havent been very proactive in doing it
11 20:53:23< filc> It took me quite a bit of time to find pick my GPS even using the wiki... and I'm still not sure I've got it right
11 20:53:28< Etienne> Malta?
11 20:53:31< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, I got an email from a librarian in Dublin that wanted to map.. can I pass that on to you?
11 20:53:38< nickb_LDN> filc: they are all the same !
11 20:53:42< Etienne> Corfu?
11 20:53:47< Etienne> Cyprus?
11 20:53:48< f_mohr> korsika
11 20:53:56< Etienne> Sardinia?
11 20:53:58< SteveC_lappy386> Ibiza
11 20:54:09< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: please do
11 20:54:17< SteveC_lappy386> cjb_ie, msg me your email?
11 20:54:24< sx-wks> Etienne: malta is small enough to be done in a couple weeks
11 20:54:46< tweety_de_> I think (as soon as we can afford) we should try to get some OSM-GPS-receiver and lend them to people who want to contribute
11 20:54:56 * JonS knows there's someone else in/around leeds that's logging tracks - if that's you please speak up :-)
11 20:55:15< filc> tweety_de: or perhaps we could hire them out... part of the fundraising
11 20:55:23 * sx-wks would need to get in touch with user:alban to share beers & more
11 20:55:26< cjb_ie> tweety_de_: yeah, i just mailed my local lug yesterday asking if anyone wants to help. got the head of mandriva ireland :)
11 20:55:35< sx-wks> cjb_ie: rotfl
11 20:56:00< tweety_de_> well what I normally find is giving them a GPS to play with mostly attracts them enough to contribute all the tracks they collected while playing with the GPS
11 20:56:04< filc> tweety_de: auction off time slots using ebay?
11 20:56:11< Etienne> Can OSMF _sell_ them and make some money that way?
11 20:56:25< BlackadderLT> I think it should be possible to get handheld gps units from Garmin or a major Garming supplier. We use them at Mapchester type events to get the public more interested in gps
11 20:56:39 * SteveC_lappy386 mentions that we havn't talked about licenses and runs away
11 20:56:45< BlackadderLT> ha
11 20:56:46 * JonS dives for cover
11 20:56:51< sx-wks> haha
11 20:57:05 * sx-wks goes turn on the oven
11 20:57:06< filc> BlackadderLT: That would be great publicity for garmin, etc if they were on the OSM frontpage
11 20:57:14< SteveC_lappy386> I've been trying to get in contact with Garmin UK, more luck in the US
11 20:57:26< SteveC_lappy386> UK seem to be a sales outfit

Doing stuff in the east

11 20:57:44< LA2> When I'm looking outward from where I live, I see bigger and bigger parts of Sweden being mapped. A year ago I was impressed by Petter's tracklogs of Oslo, but today I realize the rest of Norway is very poorly covered. But even worse is Finland-Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania-Poland. The obvious IoW project would be "the bridges of Königsberg" (a famous mathematical problem, set in the city of Kaliningrad). That could draw in people from
11 20:57:50< JonS> a donation of a few very simple models would be lovely
11 20:57:54< BlackadderLT> I'm trying to get some gear our of Thales
11 20:57:58< Etienne> We ought to be able to get some decent sponsorship from some GPS outfit.
11 20:58:00< JonS> I'm getting to really like my GPS60
11 20:58:05< f_mohr> there was someone with a nice cheap gps logging device at rmll .. sx-whs has the address
11 20:58:07< tweety_de_> well the german Garmin Support wont even answer question as soon as the realize I have an australian Garmin device :-(
11 20:58:15< cjb_ie> LA2: truncated at "That could draw in people from"
11 20:58:29< LA2> That could draw in people from these countries east and south
11 20:58:29< LA2>              of the Baltic sea.
11 20:58:54< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: I got some interesting contacts at guadec with someone from kansas city
11 20:59:07< sx-wks> (who was ready to sponsor me a GPS18)
11 20:59:08< tweety_de_> OK, but i think we should mainly focus on getting the platform stable first
11 20:59:28< LA2> Ryanair apparently flies to Kaunas, Lithuania
11 20:59:45< tweety_de_> I think if our platfor is not stable we will loose these new contributers faster than we can get new ones
11 20:59:54< filc> tweety_de: Agreed
11 20:59:58 * SteveC_lappy386 would rather fly valujet or Laker than Ryanair
11 21:00:02< cjb_ie> tweety_de_: stable /and fast/
11 21:00:07< tweety_de_> Yes
11 21:00:08< JonS> It's frustrating to upload data and not be able to edit it
11 21:00:10< SteveC_lappy386> LA2, but yes, East is good
11 21:00:24< tweety_de_> JonS, what is currently the problem?
11 21:00:31< JonS> there isn't one now :-)
11 21:00:34< SteveC_lappy386> JonS, you should have seen it get much faster this weekend
11 21:00:38< sx-wks> SteveC_lappy386: I'd rather drive there and make some tracks :d
11 21:00:41< JonS> yup - it did
11 21:00:48< JonS> previously osm-editor2 was unusable
11 21:00:52< JonS> works fine now
11 21:01:07< tweety_de_> JonS, that was what I wanted to say. It has to be FAST and STABLE
11 21:01:14< BlackadderLT> JOSM and editing rocks for me right now
11 21:01:23< Etienne>  tweety_de_: It amazes me that so much mapping got done even when the servers were performing really badly. A solid platform would make a big difference.
11 21:01:33< tweety_de_> well, but also josm could need some small improvements.
11 21:01:40< tweety_de_> Just think of area support
11 21:01:53< tweety_de_> and readily icons to tag thigs faster
11 21:02:11< f_mohr> right ... got some places i'd like to upload
11 21:02:13< tweety_de_> well the platform was fast 4 month ago
11 21:02:23< tweety_de_> then the performance went down and we fixed that
11 21:02:40< LA2> I think Kaliningrad could have an advantage for Russians / Byelorussians, since it isn't EU, no need for visa. But I don't know if we're allowed to go mapping in Russia...
11 21:02:41< JonS> I got an outline of my local cricket pitch while enjoying 2m accuracy at the weekend - we need to come up with a list of area types we want to support
11 21:02:57< nickb_LDN> I think we need to see how things improve with OSMF and more structured roles (eg Nick H as sys admin)
11 21:03:06< JonS> maybe "sports field" is good enough - then just tag it with more details
11 21:03:07< sx-wks> tweety_de: I still believe we need to use a 2D objects enabled database with R-tree indexes.
11 21:03:09< cjb_ie> my damn etrex vista refuses to do egnos, despite having it turned on.
11 21:03:10< tweety_de_> Another think I personally think would be important: To automate the Street generation. This is the reason I started with the osm-filter. 
11 21:03:16< Etienne> As we make it faster more users will absorb the extra power - hence we need to keep improving performance and adding more hardware
11 21:03:18< filc> Licensing: I feel that people can use my data for free (since I'll use someone else's) and that it can be merged with commercial uses, so long as the source is of OSM is mentioned
11 21:03:24< nickb_LDN> cjb_ie: maybe you need a firmware update
11 21:03:25< cjb_ie> holding a 76C in the same hand gets an egnos fix nice and quick
11 21:03:27 * SteveC_lappy386 has to go soon
11 21:03:31< cjb_ie> nickb_LDN: it's up to date.
11 21:03:32< BlackadderLT> There are some area features listed in the Map Features. Least I think I put them in. If not I have them for when areas work
11 21:03:33< tweety_de_> If this works you hopefully won't need as long for editing as you did for driving
11 21:03:46< nickb_LDN> cjb_ie: do you have a clear view of the southern sky?
11 21:04:01 * nickb_LDN tries to get back on track
11 21:04:15< cjb_ie> nickb_LDN: yup. the 76C saw /two/ egnos birds today, 33 and 39. the etrex vista saw neither.
11 21:04:23-!- eriso_lap [~eric@81-235-157-76-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #osm
11 21:04:30< Etienne> JonS: You can mark an area as a way ATM and Osmarender will do the right thing with it if it has the right tags
11 21:04:33< sx-wks> tweety_de: well. if you stick to linear features, it's easy
11 21:04:42< cjb_ie> nickb_LDN: i was standing there for about ten minutes waiting for a bus on a south-facing hill.
11 21:04:44-!- eriso [~eric@81-235-157-76-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11 21:04:49< sx-wks> the problem is aggregating multiple tracks into one street
11 21:04:57< JonS> Etienne: is it stored correctly in the DB then?
11 21:05:08< JonS> I wasn't sure support for areas was finished yet
11 21:05:12< sx-wks> tweety_de: and auto-generating segments
11 21:05:26< sx-wks> JonS: we need josm to support areas
11 21:05:37< tweety_de_> sx-wks, that's also one thing I will try to address in osm-filter
11 21:05:44< SteveC_lappy386> JonS, it hasn't been updated with the stuff I did over the weekend
11 21:05:46< tweety_de_> but first I have to get the basics
11 21:05:54 * cjb_ie uploads his edits for today's travels
11 21:05:56< SteveC_lappy386> JonS, ways and areas are almost identical
11 21:05:58< sx-wks> tweety_de: I see
11 21:06:08< SteveC_lappy386> in fact they are identical but for a few letters
11 21:06:10< sx-wks> tweety_de_: : last I checked
11 21:06:19< SteveC_lappy386> but there are only 4 areas in the OSM db
11 21:06:20< tweety_de_> I'll give a note when the basic framework works like I want to
11 21:06:21< sx-wks> tweety_de_: this was far from trivial... 
11 21:06:21< Etienne> JonS: No they are ways - but a way with amenity=parking will be rendered as an area
11 21:06:37< JonS> ah, clever :-)
11 21:06:45< tweety_de_> After that everyone should be able to write more filters to improve his data (by his own)
11 21:06:57< cjb_ie> tweety_de_: does josm have that requested feature you were talking about yet, where you can select the segments from A to B in a couple of clicks?
11 21:07:00< JonS> Does the way have to be closed to generate an area then?
11 21:07:08< f_mohr> osmfilter reminds me .. do i have an svn account? .. i added gpsman track import to osmfilter last week
11 21:07:27< tweety_de_> yes it has
11 21:07:48< tweety_de_> its also the select icon
11 21:08:01< Etienne> JonS: Ideally yes, but SVG copes with it even if it isn't close.
11 21:08:06< Etienne> s/close/closed/
11 21:08:17< cjb_ie> tweety_de_: excellent!
11 21:08:23< tweety_de_> just clock on A and drag along the way until B and they are all marked. Then just press w and you made a way out of it
11 21:08:25< SteveC_lappy386> Etienne, great idea about phone boxes having the postcodes I've been getting every one I see, but in central london I look like a loser looking up porn cards :-(
11 21:09:22< tweety_de_> SteveC, I can do this for you when I'm over there, Since noone there will know me ;-)
11 21:09:25< Etienne> It would be very ironic if letter boxes also had post codes.
11 21:09:38< SteveC_lappy386> ok great meeting, good talking to you. Can someone post the transcript to the wiki etc?
11 21:09:39< Etienne> br
11 21:09:41< Etienne> brb
11 21:09:55< SteveC_lappy386> you... ALL I mean
11 21:09:56< cjb_ie> SteveC_lappy386: i'll do it as promised, give me a moment
11 21:10:15< tweety_de_> nice talking to all of you too.
11 21:10:21< tweety_de_> Just one more thought.
11 21:10:53< tweety_de_> I have a teamspeak Server, which is also open for OSM. So if anyone likes to talk in (voice) with each other feel free.