Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/27 October 2014
15:37 clairedelune: Hello emirhartato and others, if you'll be joining the Training WG meeting, feel free to add your points on the agenda: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-October-27-2014-xsegHTPoTyo
15:39 emirhartato: clairedelune: hello! yes, I'm here for the meeting, I almost worried I couldn't make it because my train got stuck (it was raining), so it took me 3 hours to get home :(
15:48 clairedelune: oh sorry to hear this emirhatarto, but the good thing is that you made it anyway =)
15:55 emirhartato: hi claire, let's move to IRC now :D
15:55 emirhartato: For 2nd point, I think there is tutorial here: https://github.com/AmericanRedCross/Guides/blob/master/TranslationWorkflow_LearnOSM/translatorWorkflow.md
15:56 emirhartato: he can try to follow the instructions there and he can let us know if he has problem
16:02 clairedelune: Hello All, the Training Working Group meeting is starting now.
16:02 bgirardot: Hi Claire
16:02 bgirardot: Hi Emir
16:02 clairedelune: The agenda is available here: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-October-27-2014-xsegHTPoTyo (you can still add some other points to be discussed if you want)
16:02 clairedelune: Hi Blake
16:04 emirhartato: hi blake
16:04 russdeffner: Hello everyone, listening in...
16:05 AndrewBuck: I am listening as well, might contribute a few points here and there
16:05 clairedelune: The first 2 points on the agenda are a bit related (LearnOSM translation). I personnally had to fight "a bit" with Github to manage to make my first corrections and I only found out about the red cross tutorial afterwards... I think we could try to make it more easy to found for potential translators.
16:05 clairedelune: Hello Russ and Andrew
16:05 emirhartato: Hello Russ and Andrew
16:07 emirhartato: clairedelune: Github is a bit cumbersome for newbie, but once people is familiar, they will realize it's very useful and not really that complicated.
16:08 clairedelune: Are many of you used to use github for more than documenting bugs/issues?
16:08 clairedelune: Do you feel comfortable with Github?
16:08 emirhartato: clairedelune: not really. I'm comfortable enough.
16:08 bgirardot: I just read through the red cross document
16:09 bgirardot: And I do not really see very much github related steps or am I missing them?
16:09 clairedelune: Yes Emir, I think this is useful but even if I used it a few times, I don't feel yet vey confident
16:09 bgirardot: Because, I agree I am not very comfortable with github at the moment.
16:10 bgirardot: But it looked to me like that workflow was for the most part prose.io, with just the account information being managed with github
16:10 emirhartato: if people want to translate, is it possible they can just download the md file and translate it by themselves. than maybe we can help to push it on github?
16:10 bgirardot: and then prose.io doing whatever needs to be done in the background to get it updated in github
16:10 emirhartato: *then
16:11 clairedelune: Actually I made my edits without using prose so am not sure if that tutorial is enough, should test the entire workflow
16:11 bgirardot: Ya, that is where it gets more difficult than the red cross document emir, when you are using github directly instead of through the prose.io interface
16:12 bgirardot: I can really only translate individual strings like via transifex, I do not speak enough German to do long passages or directions so I can not test the prose.io way out :(
16:12 clairedelune: But I had heard prose.io hadn't always been working, I don't know if that comment is still valid or not.
16:12 clairedelune: Is it really possible to make any change to LearnOSM just using prose.io?
16:13 bgirardot: I have no idea, this is the first I have heard of using prose.io
16:14 clairedelune: Maybe a few of us could volunteer to test that workflow...?
16:14 clairedelune: (Those who are interested to become more comfortable maybe, me included)
16:15 bgirardot: I would if I could, but as I said, I am not really very fluent in anything but English and that is debatable ;)
16:16 emirhartato: never used prose.io before. I usually just download the md and translate it by myself then push it through github (a bit nerdy way)
16:17 clairedelune: Emir, I think that's the way I made it through too... but would be happy to have an easier to explain method.
16:17 clairedelune: bgirardot, if there's a language you can understand, there are also updates which need to be brought into English.
16:17 emirhartato: clairedelune: yes true. for the sake of non-technical people
16:18 bgirardot: Oh interesting claire, I'll look into that, it might let me give the prose.io method a try.
16:19 clairedelune: Which bring us to another aspect: when an event is organized to improve/update LearnOSM in a specific language, it often goes beyond the simple translation of the English version. Is there a way to tag the new additions in order for them to be added in English and in the other languages too afterwards?
16:20 clairedelune: It would help keeping all versions up to date, but I don't know if it's currently done, or even feasible
16:20 emirhartato: clairedelune: look up in the history.... and again, from github (unfortunately)
16:21 emirhartato: sorry for not solving the problem here :(
16:21 bgirardot: Interesting. I wonder if we could ask that commit notes in github sort of follow a "convention" to let us know if there are significant changes/additions v. just a straight translation.
16:21 clairedelune: emirhatarto, you mean looking up in the history of which page?
16:22 clairedelune: (sorry, emir hartato)
16:23 emirhartato: clairedelune: https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/commits/gh-pages
16:23 emirhartato: see on the commit page
16:23 emirhartato: bgirardot: I think I should agree with you for this
16:25 emirhartato: and maybe if people update some document, maybe it will be good to send what things being changed on the mailing list including the link to the commit page, so people would notice for the update
16:25 * sanderd17 wonders what's wrong with using existing tools to handle translations?
16:25 clairedelune: +1 for bgirardot's convention ideas
16:25 clairedelune: would be good to have simple checkbox actually
16:25 clairedelune: so we could sort the changes using them (am I dreaming?)
16:26 sanderd17: Like have a script that extracts paragraphs from the text that needs to be translated, and uploads those to transifex. Then translators translate at transifex, and it's downloaded again regularly
16:26 sanderd17: If paragraphs don't change, the translation stays vali
16:26 emirhartato: sanderd17: hi sanderd17, we are discussing about LearnOSM tutorial, which is not available under Transifex
16:26 bgirardot: sanderd: I think people felt transifex was to "individual string" oriented and that prose.io was more for longer passages of text
16:26 sanderd17: d
16:27 bgirardot: Somewhere I read that comment, I do not remember where.
16:27 emirhartato: bgirardot: I remember someone told me that Transifex is intended to translating software
16:27 sanderd17: Transifex UI might indeed give you a bit of a small text pane
16:27 clairedelune: yes, that was on a HOT list thread
16:28 sanderd17: emirhartato, it's intended at translating anything. (they're even one of the few services that advertise translating websites without much hassle)
16:29 sanderd17: Maintaining all updates yourself, and notifying the translators on changes will just create a mess AFAICS
16:29 bgirardot: sanderd, I know you have translation experience, did you look over the prose.io instructions from the red cross? it looks like a pretty good system for longer passages.
16:29 clairedelune: But Transifex is not yet much used for translating books, as far as I know, which is more similar to what we needs
16:29 sanderd17: bgirardot, no, didn't look at prose.io before
16:30 bgirardot: I think it uses git/github to handle the changes in the backend to help keep it from turning into a mess.
16:30 sanderd17: clairedelune, it's used for translation of software documentation, which is closer to learnOSM than books are to learnOSM
16:30 clairedelune: I think we would like to reassess and imrpove the usability of our current tools before changing drastically to something else.
16:31 emirhartato: sanderd17: trust me I know that. I've been translating InaSAFE documentation. But some people have problems with translating strings because they afraid it might out of context
16:31 clairedelune: Ok thank you sanderd17, I had not realized this yet, (btw I love transifex for translating websites)
16:32 emirhartato: https://www.transifex.com/organization/timlinux/dashboard/inasafe-develop
16:32 emirhartato: 9,100 strings :)
16:32 sanderd17: bgirardot, I don't see prose.io handling the main problem: notifying translators when a source file changed, and which translations are invalid
16:32 bgirardot: sanderd: Interesting.
16:33 bgirardot: If it is updating via github in the backend, wouldn't github let me know? I have no idea, I haven't used it yet.
16:33 sanderd17: Anyway, I was just wondering, won't work on it for now, so you can do whatever you want ;)
16:33 clairedelune: ;) We'll call you if we can't manage without it
16:34 clairedelune: And yes Github send messages when requests are pulled, and things like this.
16:35 clairedelune: Then if a translation is invalid, someone can send an email to the LEarnOSM list, or just go and correct it by himself
16:35 emirhartato: wonderchook (Kate) has been thinking about this. we'll have another problem if we move to Transifex
16:35 emirhartato: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2014-July/005655.html
16:39 clairedelune: yeah... so, do we agree to try to continue with Github for now, but trying to improve the current documentation if possible (first by testing it a bit more)?
16:39 bgirardot: Who maintains the github repository?
16:40 bgirardot: And yes, I agree to continue with what is in place and test the prose.io workflow
16:41 emirhartato: bgirardot: i think jeffhaack or alexbarth
16:42 bgirardot: emir: I see, ok, thank you.
16:42 emirhartato: but mostly it's maintained by jeffhaack
16:43 emirhartato: clairedelune: +1
16:43 clairedelune: If there's no other comment, we can maybe continue with the next point
16:44 clairedelune: Emir has already answered to Michael's email, but he was also asking about the most important pages to be translated on the wiki
16:46 clairedelune: But if nobody wants to say something about this, we can maybe follow up with the OSM data extraction point
16:46 clairedelune: Mikel had started a thread on this, unfortunately he couldn't join us now
16:47 bgirardot: I think the strings in the tasking manager are important, followed by activation descriptions and then documentation (like learnosm), but I like Emir's reply to start with what they want.
16:49 clairedelune: He told me there are already many people interested in preoparing the tutorial (maybe some of you?) and in getting trained too. That could be a project in which the Training WG could get involved too. Maybe we can come back on this during next meeting.
16:50 bgirardot: Someone said they had a tutorial but didn't provide a link to it.
16:50 clairedelune: bgirardot, explaining what HOT is can also be sometimes useful, but I support your point.
16:51 emirhartato: bgirardot: thanks
16:52 bgirardot: Yantisa said they had some export tutorial docs, but I think not in English
16:52 clairedelune: Laura said she forked a repo to share also translations on existing tools but some of the links didn't worked on my side. There's an italian website, but haven't found documentation yet
16:52 bgirardot: So maybe reviewing those is a good place to start, if we can
16:53 bgirardot: It is the 2nd or 3d email in the thread you posted in the agenda document
16:55 bgirardot: The forked repo for translation is for the export tool that got mentioned, not export tutorial documentation if I understand things correctly.
16:55 emirhartato: unfortunately I don't speak italian :/
16:55 bgirardot: http://osm-toolserver-italia.wmflabs.org/estratti/regioni.html
16:56 bgirardot: So I think we might contact Yantisa and ask about the tutorial documents she mentioned and go from there?
16:56 clairedelune: I do understand some Italian, but there's not much text on that website you know ;)
16:56 emirhartato: bgirardot: well Yantisa is my team manager in Indonesia. I meet him most of time :p
16:57 bgirardot: Nice :) Have you seen the tutorial documents he spoke of?
16:57 emirhartato: bgirardot: the tutorial that he mentioned? The HOT export pasrt is actually based on LearnOSM
16:57 emirhartato: *part
16:58 emirhartato: but we adapt it more specific for scenario development for contingency planning context
16:58 emirhartato: wait a sec, I'll give you the link
16:58 emirhartato: http://inasafe.org/en/training/index.html
16:59 clairedelune: I'll ask Mikel if he can also send an update on what he got, so we can see better where the needs are.
16:59 clairedelune: Thanks Emir
16:59 bgirardot: emir: Oh thank you very much, I am looking at it now
16:59 emirhartato: the content is basically from LearnOSM, but this is for DRR purpose
16:59 emirhartato: here's part for HOT Export
16:59 emirhartato: http://inasafe.org/en/training/beginner/osm/108-getting-osm-data.html
17:01 bgirardot: Wow, what a nice training program you have.
17:02 emirhartato: bgirardot: looooong program. too long. we've been trying to squeeze the curriculum :)
17:02 bgirardot: There is just a lot of material, I image it is tough to find anything to cut out
17:02 bgirardot: imagine*
17:03 emirhartato: yes true
17:04 emirhartato: we've been trying to integrate this to National Disaster Management Agency training group. So it will be implemeted to whole DRR-related agency
17:04 emirhartato: it will be a huge impact for OSM-QGIS-InaSAFE if it works :)
17:04 bgirardot: I see.
17:04 bgirardot: claire: That sounds good about the follow up with Mikel
17:05 emirhartato: anyway, TimSutton, also integrated OSM extraction on InaSAFE plugin
17:05 emirhartato: http://inasafe.org/en/user-docs/application-help/openstreetmap_downloader.html
17:05 emirhartato: it will extract structures only (roads and buildings) and put in into nice cartography automatically on QGIS
17:06 clairedelune: Cool Blake. And yes, OSM-Indonesia has got incredible curicullum, so much work done.
17:08 clairedelune: That's great that it includes a HowTo for extracting data from Linfinity website. That should be taken into account too.
17:08 emirhartato: clairedelune: maybe it will be a good start to list all available extraction tools... and put them maybe on the wik
17:09 emirhartato: clairedelune: than we find out available tutorial?
17:09 emirhartato: and translation?
17:09 clairedelune: Emir, are you thinking about a specific page on extraction tools?
17:09 clairedelune: or does it still needs to be created?
17:09 emirhartato: clairedelune: I think so.
17:10 clairedelune: That's a good idea. Is there someone who wants to take care of this?
17:11 emirhartato: I volunteered
17:11 emirhartato: I will make a list first
17:11 clairedelune: Great! thank you.
17:11 emirhartato: of available extraction tools
17:11 clairedelune: That would be a good starting point.
17:12 clairedelune: By the way it seems that we finished our agenda already. Does anyone have another point to be discussed today?
17:13 bgirardot: Oh, we are an over an hour, I always want to talk about supporting remote mappers
17:13 bgirardot: but we could do that next time too :)
17:13 emirhartato: I'm still here anyway
17:14 emirhartato: but it's up to you guys
17:14 clairedelune: yes please Blake, go on
17:16 clairedelune: I think we can afford 15 more minutes for other points
17:16 bgirardot: I am just looking for some brainstorming ideas on what we can do to get new mappers welcomed in and make sure they know they can get support and help
17:16 bgirardot: I think a welcome email when they check out a task is a good first step, but that is not as easy as it sounds.
17:17 bgirardot: And I was wondering if we had a good list of resources for new mappers. LearnOSM gets pointed to a lot but I am not sure it is HOT specific enough
17:18 bgirardot: so are there other more HOT specific resources I am missing?
17:18 clairedelune: I realized yesterday that on the Tasking Manager, there's still not much info about HOT community, there could be some things added too on that side. But for this I would suggest to join the brainstorming happenning here (including many other improvements to the tool: https://docs.google.com/a/hotosm.org/spreadsheets/d/1Vy9Im1jrw9Y1a97OWu29C_L_0BOEDNCPbLpLEVPHWgM/edit#gid=0)
17:19 emirhartato: When LearnOSM idea came up, it's inteded to gather new mapper. I mean general mapper. Not specific for HOT context or DRR context
17:19 clairedelune: There are lots of different resources made by various people, such as CartONG (in French), by MapGive project and so on.
17:19 emirhartato: That is why OSM Indonesia decided to build another documentation specifically for DRR context under InaSAFE website
17:20 emirhartato: but yes, some of them are available
17:20 bgirardot: I think it is a great site, I just know HOT mapping and even region by region hot mapping needs a little additional specifics
17:20 emirhartato: I've checked video from MapGive it's really great
17:20 clairedelune: Why not adding a new separate chapter to LearnOSM about mapping with HOT?
17:20 emirhartato: clairedelune: that also would work
17:20 bgirardot: Oh that is a good idea.
17:21 bgirardot: I also plan to do some "screencast" type videos, basically continuations of the MapGive videos (not as well produced for sure), but like MapGive, but "intermediate" level
17:22 clairedelune: And with the existing idea of reviewing LearnOSM structure (to get out of Beginner/Intermediate/advanced separations), it could fit well I think
17:22 bgirardot: As LearnOSM and MapGive are both very focused on the very important step of learning to use the tools, but the next level is learning to map the areas
17:22 clairedelune: but otherwise, yes it could be included under intermediate
17:23 bgirardot: Yes, I think that is great claire, if we could add some materials to LearnOSM, that seems like a perfect place to "centralize"
17:23 clairedelune: Blake, what do you exactly want to say with learning to map the area? Because the OSM wiki is also full of info on this.
17:24 clairedelune: and the current issue is that LearnOSM and OSM wiki do not share the same licenses... which makes it a bit tricky sometimes
17:24 bgirardot: I should look there
17:24 bgirardot: more
17:24 emirhartato: yes. different license
17:24 emirhartato: learnOSM is public domain and wiki is something else
17:24 emirhartato: cc by-sa?
17:25 emirhartato: I guess
17:25 clairedelune: I guess so
17:25 bgirardot: But I know other people are not finding the material either as I get about 1 or 2 emails a week about the little things I do to help learn mappng. Thats why I ask if there are materials I am just not finding
17:26 emirhartato: if we just linked them to the wiki page, do you think it's going to work?
17:26 emirhartato: we don't have to move everything to LearnOSM right? (but it's very nice to have everything in one place though)
17:26 clairedelune: Material is all spread arount the net... that's why it is useful for people when we manage to centralize the info
17:28 clairedelune: of course we don't need to move everything, we can continue to make lists of links on the wiki for instance, but then there should be links from the TM to there, and to LearnOSM too.
17:28 bgirardot: I am browsing through the osm wiki now
17:31 clairedelune: By the way, Blake, I think that would be excellent to have an automatic email sent to new users of the TM with links towards resources and a short welcome word (but I think those resources should also be available from somewhere else anyway)
17:32 clairedelune: like the wiki too or another place
17:33 bgirardot: Yes, me too. The main sticking point is that the Tasking Manager does not send real Email, and if it does that makes things more complicated. I think the next best thing is to pass a message to the OSM account and let the OSM servers send an email to the users.
17:33 emirhartato: clairedelune: it's good idea but we need to ask the technical working group for the implementation
17:33 bgirardot: Actually, I think sending the message to the OSM account and letting it notify the user of the email is the best option over all, not a second choice.
17:33 clairedelune: sure, yes, to the OSM user account would be fine
17:34 clairedelune: and probably the best option
17:34 clairedelune: Once we have the content of the message ready, it could be sent to the Technical WG
17:34 bgirardot: Oh that is a good idea
17:35 clairedelune: (half past, I'll soon be leaving)
17:35 bgirardot: Ok, thank you very much, just the reminder to look in the OSM wiki for mapping help has been helpful to me. I still do not see the sort of stuff I am thinking of, but I need to go through it fully.
17:36 clairedelune: you'll get a prize if you manage to get through the full wiki ;)
17:36 bgirardot: :)
17:36 clairedelune: Thank you very much to you all who participated to today's meeting
17:36 bgirardot: I will do a first draft of a possible welcome message ot
17:37 bgirardot: too*
17:37 clairedelune: Next meeting planned for November 10.
17:37 clairedelune: Thank you Blake
17:37 clairedelune: Don't hesitate to share it when/if you want comments
17:37 clairedelune: Bye
17:38 bgirardot: Bye
17:38 emirhartato: bye
17:38 emirhartato: i have to go also
17:38 emirhartato: almost midnight here
17:38 emirhartato: or i'm going to late for work
17:38 clairedelune: Good night Emir
17:38 bgirardot: Good night emir
17:38 emirhartato: thanks all