Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20060822/Log
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<Etienne> Anyone here for the Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks meeting? <avantman42> I'd come along to see what got said. I was also going to ask a couple of questions. Back in a mo <chippy_tim> theres a meeting now? <Etienne> avantman42: If you have questions, please go ahead and ask them. <Etienne> chippy_tim: Well, kind of... nothing was really scheduled or announced. So it's a bit ad-hoc. <chippy_tim> cool <chippy_tim> ive a question or two :) <Etienne> Go ahead <chippy_tim> schemas: like landuse:residential, road:footpath, access:yes (dont remember the correct ones) but instead of writing them for each way, is there a way to save them as like a template <chippy_tim> is there a method to save me creating new key:value pairs for ways, in other words :) <Etienne> Yes, if you are using JOSM then you can use the Annotations Preset feature <chippy_tim> oh! I should update my JOSM then :) <Etienne> Annotations Preset is an XML file that defines a set of valid key/value combinations <Etienne> Build 128 is what I am using <chippy_tim> 114 here <Etienne> Time to upgrade. <chippy_tim> does the file reside in the .jsom folder? <chippy_tim> yep :) <Etienne> It can be anywhere - its referenced with a URI <Etienne> Blackadder was working on one that implemented all of the map features rules <Etienne> I have one that implements most of the ones I use <chippy_tim> great stuff, I'll have a look in the list <chippy_tim> got 136 build now <avantman42> How do I mark an area? I'm sure I got told at the Midlands meeting, but I've forgotten ;-) <Etienne> Here's my file: <Etienne> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <annotations> <item name="Major Highway"> <label text="Major Highway"/> <combo key="highway" text="Type" values="secondary,primary,trunk,motorway,motorway_link"/> <text key="ref" text="Road Number"/> <text key="image" text="Image URI"/> <check key="oneway" text="Oneway?" values="1,-1"/> </item> <item name="Minor Highway"> <label text="Minor Highway"/> <combo key="highway" text="Type" values="residential,unclassified,service,unsurfaced"/> <text key="name" text="Street name"/> <text key="image" text="Image URI"/> <check key="oneway" text="Oneway?" values="1,-1"/> </item> <item name="Footway"> <label text="Footway"/> <combo key="highway" text="Type" values="footway,steps,cycleway,bridleway"/> </item> <item name="Gate"> <label text="Gate"/> <key key="highway" value="gate"/> </item> <item name="Service Road"> <label text="Service Road"/> <key key="highway" value="service"/> </item> <item name="Parking"> <label text="Parking"/> <key key="amenity" value="parking"/> </item> <item name="Telephone"> <label text="Telephone"/> <key key="amenity" value="telephone"/> <text key="post_code" text="Post code"/> </item> <item name="Post Box"> <label text="Post Box"/> <key key="amenity" value="post_box"/> <text key="ref" text="Letter box number"/> </item> <item name="Church"> <label text="Church"/> <key key="amenity" value="place_of_worship"/> <combo key="denomination" text="Type" values="church_of_england,catholic,muslim,hindu,buddist,sikh,jewish,<other - please specify>"/> <text key="name" text="Name"/> <text key="image" text="Image URI"/> </item> <item name="Waterway"> <label text="Waterway"/> <text key="name" text="Name"/> <combo key="waterway" text="Type" values="river,canal,drain,"/> </item> <item name="Data Source"> <label text="Way/Segment/Node Data Source"/> <combo key="source" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/> </item> <item name="Street Name Source"> <label text="Street Name Source."/> <combo key="source:name" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/> </item> <item name="Road Number Source"> <label text="Road Number Source."/> <combo key="source:ref" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/> </item> <item name="Power Line"> <label text="Power Line"/> <key key="power" value="line"/> </item> <item name="Pylon"> <label text="Power Line Pylon"/> <key key="power" value="tower"/> <text key="ref" text="Tower Id"/> </item> </annotations> <Etienne> avantman42: you can mark an area just by making a way that joins up with itself. <almien> http://pastebin.com/ <avantman42> Etienne: I thought it was something like that, but isn't there a key/value pair to mark it as an area? <Etienne> You need to make sure that all the segments are pointing in the same direction, and the way should include the segments strictly in clockwise or anti-clockwise sequence. <Etienne> almien: thks for that: http://pastebin.com/773469 <Etienne> btw that file covers the values that I use for 98% of the tags that I use. <avantman42> So, if I make sure that each segment goes in a clockwise direction, and they are added to the way in order, then that's it? <chippy_tim> thanks Etienne!! <Etienne> avantma42: yes, just tag the way with an area-like tag, such as amenity=parking and you are done. <avantman42> Etienne: Grand. Thanks <avantman42> Now how do I use this annotations file? I've got it downloaded, and it's in my preferences. I just can't work out how to use it <blarson> When editing a way, josm randomly decided to add a segment from another way. How do I fix this? <tweety_de> there should now be a pulldown on near the tags window <tweety_de> use this to select one of the predefined <almien> control-click on the offending segment <tweety_de> or use ctrl-z to undo <blarson> tweety_de: didn't notice till I uploaded <avantman42> tweety_de: There is. Thanks, I don't know how I missed that <almien> select it, press W, then ctrl-click <tweety_de> if you uploaded its's probably too late for ctrl-z <tweety_de> i missed it too. Imi had to point me to it 4 times untill saw it ;-) <avantman42> That makes me feel a little better :-) <avantman42> Etienne: Thanks. Your annotations file looks very useful <blarson> josm seemed to work this time. it does so just often enough to confuse me. <avantman42> My other question: How do I add a place name? <Etienne> avantman42: Remember, you can change this file to suit the things that you want to tag in the way that you want to tag them - you don't just need to follow the way I have been doing it. <almien> place=village, name=Hersham <avantman42> Etienne: I realise that, but having yours to start from makes it a lot easier <almien> there's a list of "place" tags on the wiki (village, town, city, country, etc.) <avantman42> almien: Yeah, but do I just tag a node with that, or do I need to create an area? <almien> node is fine <avantman42> Right, and presumably the name will appear where the node is? Grand, thanks <almien> boundaries are notoriously hard to find anyway (compared to village centres) <Etienne> avantman42: For example, I take copious photos and use the image tag to record the file name of the photo. You may not want/need to do that. <avantman42> Etienne: Yeah, I'll have to have a look at it some time <avantman42> But it's easier to edit a working file than to start one from scratch <Etienne> With Osmarender rules file osm-map-features.xml the name is generally positioned to the right of the node. <avantman42> I'm downloading some data now to try it with <Etienne> avantman42: a working example is always a good place to start. <rweait> Etienne: is there a FAQ or HOWTO for getting started with josm? <Etienne> rweait: Somewhere there are some very good recordings of Imi explaining how to use JOSM. <rweait> Thank you <Etienne> rweait: I think they are at http://josm.eigenheimstrasse.de/ but this is giving me an error at the moment. <almien> maybe the router is being painted again <avantman42> Hmm. According to Map Features, I should use place_name, but Osmarender only appears to recognise name <almien> name is the commonly used one -->| eckhart (~eckhart@p549BC69C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #osm <Etienne> I'd not noticed the sub-section of places that suggests place_name. Was this added recently? Is anyone using it? <almien> according to (Dutch's???) statistics page, it's used about 20% as much as name <almien> http://www.ostertag.name/osm/stats/060814-a/uk/OSM_errors_statistics-nodes.html -->| nick_b (~chatzilla@ACCF685B.ipt.aol.com) has joined #osm * SteveC wakes up <nick_b> hello again <almien> good morning steve! <nick_b> is the mapping tips session happening <Etienne> nick_b: it's in full swing :-) <nick_b> great <avantman42> I've remembered another question I had: Should I mark dual carriageways & roundabouts as oneway? <SteveC> sounds like a good idea for routing <almien> and should we have a "carriageway" tag that means "oneway, but only because it's half of a road" <Etienne> avantman42: this is a good question. <Etienne> junction=roundabout, oneway=yes seems redundant to me <avantman42> I've marked some as oneway, but wasn't really sure if I should <avantman42> I had an idea I'd seen it mentioned somewhere <Etienne> highway=motoway, oneway=yes also seems a bit redundant <tweety_de> i have a complete mirror of imis josm directory at www.ostertag.name/osm/josm <avantman42> Etienne: I agree, but I had an idea I'd read somewhere that motorways should be tagged as oneway=yes * almien tags motorways as oneway <almien> for fear that some routing software will direct people down the wrong sliproad and put us all in the newspaper headlines <Etienne> So did I, and that is what I have been doing - but I've never seen a two way motorway <almien> a-roads are the ones which can be dual-carriageway, single-carriageway or one-way <Etienne> almien: agreed <almien> "I was only following the GPS" argues russian truck driver after 98-car pile up on the M25 <Etienne> almien: that would be a problem with the segment direction, not with oneway=yes, unless he was going down the wrong carriageway. <Etienne> Likewise, I don't bother to tag highway=motorway, car=yes because that is implied by the motorway tag. <avantman42> Should Osmarender mark one way streets in some way? It doesn't seem to be doing so for me <Etienne> But I have seen something like highway=motorway, car=yes, horse=no, moped=no, foot=no, bike=no, tractor=no, ... that seems very redundant to me. <Etienne> avantman42: It does try to. It puts a very small arrow at the very end of any way that is tagged oneway=yes. <nick_b> Etienne: aggreed - such things should be inferred <blarson> Etienne: In calinfornia, bikes are allowed on some freeways. <avantman42> Etienne: Right. Doesn't seem to be visible, even when zoomed in * almien didn't notice the "no bikes" sign on US freeways until motorists told him * SteveC tries to imagine cycling on the 101 <almien> Anchorage has a motorway to get from one end of the town centre to the other <Etienne> avantman42: the arrow is narrower than the width of the line and if the line meets another line then it is probably painted over by that. <avantman42> Etienne: Ah, right. OK <almien> so do chevrons mean one-way, or steep hill? <almien> as map standards go <Etienne> almien: "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" <blarson> I think it was part of us101 that I saw the "bikes must exit" sign on. They are only allowed in sections where there isn't another reasonable route and the sholders are paved and wide. <SteveC> If someone was to add 'highway=minor' support to osmarender, how should it go? 'normal' maps seem to make them look the same as 'highway=residential' <almien> it depends on the gamma setting of your monitor I think <almien> residential looks different to minor on the mac, but not on KDE -->| Welshie (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #osm <Welshie> did I miss anything? only 1HR 12 minutes late <almien> (light grey area surrounding the road, looks white on PC) <almien> hello Welshie <SteveC> almien, you're saying osmarender does do minor? <Etienne> Google maps shows private roads as greyer and narrower than pulic roads. <almien> minor=unclassified in osmarender I think. and residential = "highway=unclassified, abutters=residential" <Welshie> osmarender can do anything you want it to, apart from make a really good nice hot cup of tea. <Etienne> SteveC: if you want minor roads then edit osm-map-features like this: s/k="highway" v="unclassified|residential"/k="highway" v="unclassified|residential|minor"/g <Welshie> I think the discussion here is what the current default distribution of the osm-map-features2.xml does |<-- MikeS has left irc.oftc.net (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) <Etienne> Welshie: can I use that quote? ;-) <Welshie> as for highway=service. I've been using that to denote stuff like privately owned access roads to motorway services, trading estates and the like <Welshie> sure * almien uses amenity=service and assumes it will only be used on large-scale maps showing the east midlands on a page <SteveC> Etienne, on the way back from Bath we deliberately took A roads to try and get some new stuff but looking through, you've done it all :-( <SteveC> Etienne, (we went off the m3, over the m25 to your area and continued east toward redhill, back over the m25 etc) <Etienne> SteveC: me? I went to Banbury recently avoiding the M40 and still couldn't find many roads that hadn't already been done. <Welshie> coverage in my part of the world (North London), I've been looking at osm data so long, I know when I need to switch the GPS off and on, to save on battery and tracklog space. <SteveC> Etienne, yeah I'm pretty sure its you, the massive area in south west london just inside the m25... ring any bells? :-) <SteveC> Welshie, :-) I can drop all that courier data... I've been meaning to <almien> my family live in the next town to Etienne, they still haven't found a road he hasn't mapped |<-- avantman42 has left irc.oftc.net (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <Etienne> *inside* the M25 its all mine. <Welshie> when was the last ecourier data uploaded? <Welshie> etienne : you sound like landed gentry there <SteveC> Welshie, um... like a year ago -->| f_mohr (~email@example.com) has joined #osm <Welshie> steve: any idea of the extent of the ecourier stuff: did any go much outside M25 ? -->| avantman42 (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #osm <Etienne> almien: I think there's a couple of paths through parks in WOT that I havent done. <SteveC> Welshie, not really <almien> the reservoirs look good <Etienne> almien: You can seem them from space (so they say) <almien> you can see drain-covers from space <Welshie> how about working out that you can drop ecourier points if there's other non-ecourier points within 10m of them? <avantman42> What's the problem with ecourier data? <Welshie> have you looked at central london in JOSM, or the applet? <Etienne> Why is there no mapping in South East London? Does nobody live there? <SteveC> avantman42, its pretty dense and low quality <SteveC> Etienne, check out Lewisham, Nick Hill did all of it but didnt turn it in to ways <Welshie> I did a bit of Southwark <Welshie> only the roads that I knew. * almien looks through the catalog of unmapped cities... <avantman42> SteveC: Ah, right. OK <Etienne> But further out, Blackheath, Bromley, etc, there's nothing. <f_mohr> hi SteveC .. is there a chance to find out who's uploaded some nodes and segments? <Welshie> Tooting is a little sparse too <Etienne> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/8/88/SouthLondon.png <Welshie> you certainly won't want to drop ecourier data for the hell of it, in areas where there are no other alternatives * almien is going to need a job in scotland, and a car... <SteveC> heh! <SteveC> look at my little reigate patch -->| MikeS (~mike@p5087500C.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #osm <almien> Liverpool and York are the main ones with no data <SteveC> I have an ex in Liverpool so I hate the place... York sounds like a lovely place to map however <almien> you'd get penny lane? <SteveC> almien, I used to live 10 meters or so from there <almien> york is ok <almien> you'd have to walk the walls <Etienne> York would be a great place for a mapping weekend. Hull would also be OK as its very flat and cycle friendly. <almien> actually, I know a load of people visiting scotland all through winter for walking <almien> might be worth giving them some GPS <SteveC> Etienne, when was that render done...? it doesnt have some recent stuff I've done around wandsworth bridge <almien> has anyone marked the Savoy as "drive on the right"? <Etienne> SteveC: July 24 <SteveC> ah <SteveC> it's really pretty <almien> Durham would be like 2 people/1weekend,but costs about £60 to get a train to <Etienne> SteveC: I've done quite a bit to the East of the A3 since then. Elmbridge commons is a massive area of green with lots of footpaths and bridleways. <almien> *cough* "horse rides". they hate cyclists there -->| DRF (~email@example.com) has joined #osm <f_mohr> how should we handle mapped areas without supporting trackpoints .. i found a strange area in franfurt/germany <Etienne> f_mohr: any clues as to where it came from or who did it? <f_mohr> nope .. <almien> they may have trackpoints on their computer, didn't upload them <f_mohr> it almost too good, has no trackpoints and some errors like death ends connected to the next street <tweety_de> f_mohr: I still have a lot of my tracks not uploaded; Yes shame on me. <tweety_de> f_mohr: And I was driving through FF a year ago or so. <Etienne> maybe put a request on the mailing list and Wiki. If nobody comes forward and "claims" them, then ask someone to look at the database for ownership. <f_mohr> that was no drive through .. if a living area <tweety_de> no, than it's not my fault. Uhh :-) <blarson> Anybody have a handspring springboard? Need a gps for it? <f_mohr> s/if/it's/ <tweety_de> blarson: ? what ? <blarson> I got a gps at a swap meet new in box that only workks on that pda. <Etienne> blarson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springboard and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handspring_%28Gymnastics%29 ?? <Etienne> f_mohr: Maybe we need to work out a procedure for querying dubious data. Like 1) ask on the wiki 2) ask on the mailing list 3) get an admin to look at the database 4) delete the data * f_mohr will start with 2) <SteveC> the new renderer really slows down the db doesnt it :-/ * chippy_tim would be up for York too, only 30mins away <Etienne> SteveC: things have been sloer recently <blarson> The gps is for a "handspring visor springboard" expantion slot. <Etienne> s/sloer/slower/ <Welshie> maybe the system is slow because there's so many of us on channel looking at areas <Etienne> blarson: put a post on the talk mailing list - someone might be interested - where are you? US? <blarson> Etienne: Yes, los angeles, california, us <Etienne> blarson: cool, I laid some tracks down from LAX out to Palm Beach, then Joshua Tree, Barstow and Death Valley a few months ago. <Etienne> s/Palm Beach/Palm Springs/ <blarson> Etienne: I started making ways from some of the segments. |<-- Welshie has left irc.oftc.net (Quit: Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/) <Etienne> Great, if you put in a request to Dan I think you can get the TIGER import redirected to an area you are interested in. <SteveC> s/Dan/Ben <SteveC> :-) <eckhart> damn -->| mcn (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #osm <eckhart> spot-the-error picture: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Streckennetz_Bayern.png * mcn waves <chippy_tim> tunnels? <chippy_tim> hi mcn <eckhart> no <eckhart> there's a way missing near München (Munich) :-( <Etienne> echert: how did you make this image? <eckhart> osmarender * avantman42 goes to bed <--| avantman42 has left #osm <eckhart> railroad in bavaria <eckhart> (parts of, that is) <nick_b> I guess tunnels are going to be an issue for OSM <Etienne> eckhart: cool. Welshie said "osmarender can do anything you want it to, apart from make a really good nice hot cup of tea" - maybe he's right :-) <eckhart> not even a big deal <eckhart> just comment out everything not railroad related <chippy_tim> we can do it like they did on the old paper maps, draw the lines dashed <eckhart> and adjust the scale attribute -->| almien2 (~Ojw@188.8.131.52) has joined #osm |<-- almien has left irc.oftc.net (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by almien2))) =-= almien2 is now known as almien * SteveC goes to bed * almien too |<-- almien has left irc.oftc.net (Remote host closed the connection) <nick_b> so who's left? <tweety_de> goes to bed too <nick_b> chippy_tim: are you set for FOSS? * mcn is left, but i've only just arrived... <mcn> my machine got accidentally rebooted, and i've only just realised I didn't rejoin #osm <mcn> good meeting? <Etienne> nick_b: I'm still here <eckhart> chippy_tim: like this: http://ewsoftware.de/temp/osm/circle1301.png ?