Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20060912/Log

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	<Etienne>	Anyone here for the IRC meeting? Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks.
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	<enxrah>	Hi Etienne.
	<Etienne>	Hi enxrah
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	<Veggen>	sort of.
	===	enxrah <~enxrah@bathterror.free-online.co.uk> “Robert Hart”
	===	enxrah: member of #osm
	===	enxrah: attached to strange.oftc.net “USA”
	===	enxrah actually using host
	---	End of WHOIS information for enxrah.
	<enxrah>	can I ask about etiquette of editing other people's bit of the map?
	<Etienne>	Sure. Any particular concerns?
	<enxrah>	I live in Bath, which was recently "done" by a mapping weekend, however there are various parts that have been "noded" and "segmented", but not "wayed" or "tagged"
	<enxrah>	initially I left these bits because I assumed somebody was going to come back and finish them off
	<enxrah>	but that's looking less likely now.
	<Etienne>	Well, I don't think there are any established protocols. OSM is too new for that. It is supposed to follow the wiki model so you have every right to tag them.
	<Veggen>	I have sort of a similar question.
	<enxrah>	OK, and presumeably also to delete stuff that is dubious quality?
	<Etienne>	Until recently the chances of a collision between two users was pretty small. The mapping parties have increased the probability a bit, but its still quite small.
	<f_mohr>	i had some collision really early
	<Etienne>	If you have better data or local knowledge then its OK to improve stuff. Deleting it without replacing it probably isn't a good thing to do.
	<Veggen>	I have some ways that are mapped, but not that accurate. So when I mapped the bicycle path that is alongside it, the gps track was frequently on the other side of the road. And looking t the gpx tracks, I can see that the marked road *is* off in such an amount that if I just move it to correspond to the gpx track, the whole thing looks correct...
	<Veggen>	So I presume it's not out of the line to make small corrections to ways like that, to make it more accurate?
	<Etienne>	Veggen: yes, as more data is added it is possible to increase the precision of ways that were drawn with fewer trackpoints.
	<Veggen>	Etienne: it looks like the segments are done by hand. but of course I can't be sure.
	<Etienne>	f_mohr: AFAIK there has not been anyone editing within 20 miles of me in the last 6 months.
	<Veggen>	(by hand but of course with an attempt to follow the gpx track)
	<Etienne>	Veggen: they may have been done when there were only a few trackpoints or they may have just been done badly. Whatever, if you can improve them, then do so.
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	<Veggen>	But I'd really like some advice on best practises about data collection and converting to ways :)
	<Veggen>	Accuracy, etc.
	<RalfZ>	Is there a way to find out who is editing data in my vincinity?
	<quinophex>	follow their tracks until you find their house ;)
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	<Etienne>	Veggen: I think we are aspiring to about 10m accuracy (at least that's what I heard someone say). Draw as accurately as you can, and refine when you get more data is probably the best approach.
	<Etienne>	RalfZ: currently there is no easy way. You can use the RSS feed to see the last 50 or so edits within a specified area. That might tell you who it is. You can also ask on the mailing list - that's what I would do.
	<mcn>	when I first track a road I draw the segments as accurately as I can on the gps data. later on when I have several tracks for that same route I'll adjust the nodes to more average positions along the gps tracks
	<mcn>	it matters a lot for some roads that have bad sat coverage, like through trees etc
	<enxrah>	Veggen: When I'm out mapping I try and keep an eye on the "accuracy" my gps is claiming and the number of satellites it has signals from, and bear that in mind when doing the map. If I get a good signal then I add waypoints at junctions at significant changes in direction.
	<enxrah>	I import the waypoints into a separate layer in JOSM and give it a different colour
	<mcn>	hmm, has anyone managed to use the ordnance survey RINEX data to postprocess and correct their GPS tracks?
	<mcn>	or is that not possible?
	* Etienne	is reading about RINEX at http://gps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/active.asp
	<mcn>	yeah, that's the one
	<Veggen>	Etienne: I've recently had better coverage than that. Can I just use my gpx tracks directly, converted to data and cleaned up if necessary?
	<Veggen>	I also used the "waypoints as separate layers" technique.
	<Etienne>	Veggen: I find that it is better to create nodes and segments manually rather than by getting the GPS trackpoints joined up automatically. Is that what you mean?
	<Veggen>	Etienne: that's what I mean.
	<Veggen>	of course I remove redundant points after. I find it far less time-consuming, and giving good results in my eyes :)
	<Etienne>	Veggen: I you have one set of trackpoints recorded at 5 or 10 second intervals, then it is tempting to join them up automatically. If you have several tracks at 1 second intervals then you'll want to take an average of all the points, and draw a lot fewer nodes than there are trackpoints.
	<Etienne>	Who, here, records trackpoints at 1 second intervals?
	<quinophex>	i will do when the cycle mount for my navigps turns up tomorrow
	<Veggen>	I use my gps "auto" settings...not quite sure what it is, but it's more or less "record as often as necessary" :)
	<enxrah>	I left my garmin on "auto" with "high" resolution.
	<Veggen>	enxrah: that's the same I do.
	<enxrah>	it does points every 3seconds or so when I am walking
	<enxrah>	seems to be plenty good enough for mapping.
	<Veggen>	And feel that when I'm on bike, that's good accuracy.
	<quinophex>	i did that with my old magellan 315 and it wasn't much use, some points would be nearly a mile apart
	<RalfZ>	When I am tracking new streets, I usually have 1second intervalls - that gives better results at corners and curves - in my opinion.
	<quinophex>	(when driving_
	<Etienne>	I'd highly recommend using 1 second intervals. A lot more detail shows up than you might imagine.
	<quinophex>	i've noticed today while playing around with josm that when overlaying all my old tracks that the 150 metres to the end of the road looks much better than anything else detailwise
	<Etienne>	I'm so used to 1 second intervals while cycling that when I'm driving I wish I could log at 1/2 second intervals.
	<Veggen>	It seems to log more often than every 3rd, but not quite 1 per second - only at times.
	<enxrah>	Etienne any tips about mapping large scale features? I took the train from Paddington to Bath on Sunday, and I think it took an alternate route that hasn't been mapped yet. I'm a bit daunted about mapping something >100 miles long though
	<Etienne>	Because there are slight variations in GPS position from hour to hour, if you record tracks for the same route several times you'll start to get a good average.
	<Veggen>	on seconds 13,14,15,16,18,19,22 - for example.
	<Etienne>	enxrah: Start at one end and keep going ;-)
	<enxrah>	Etienne: so loading the whole trace into josm, and then hit "download osm data" for a 100x100mile area is going to work?
	<Etienne>	enxrah: seriously, don't try to make a single way that is 100 miles long. Keep each way down to somewhere between 25 and 250 segments. If there's a junction, bridge or crossing then thats a good time to start a new way.
	<enxrah>	yep ok
	* mcn	records at 1 second intervals, now I've got a navigps :)
	<Etienne>	None of the editors can yet join or split ways, so don't make them either too long or too short.
	<mcn>	I went to Cornwall on holiday last week, did about 850 miles. Took up 53Mb on the SD card :)
	<Etienne>	mcn: Cool. That must have been some journey.
	<mcn>	well, it was about 350 miles each way (loughborough<->st. austell) + the rest riding/walking while there
	<mcn>	i've got the eden project fairly well now if it hasn't been done yet :)
	<mcn>	the navigps even got a reasonableish (considering the circumstances) signal in the biomes
	<Etienne>	mcn: I've been recording tracks for 2 months now on my 256Mb SD card. Still got space for 100Mb before I have to delete anything.
	<mcn>	:)
	<mcn>	I was worried the 512Mb card might fill up... !
	<mcn>	got an egnos signal quite a lot too, which was nice
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	<Etienne>	The Eden project would be a great thing to showcase - some opportunities for interesting rendering techniques to show the biomes.
	<mcn>	need to work out how to process all the nmea files to remove the junk ones (i.e. < "x" points in them)
	<mcn>	it might be possible to plot the paths in the biomes too, but that will be a bit tricky with just my current log
	* mcn	notes to create a hat to hold the navigps... it gets a much better lock up there
	<robert_s>	hello all
	<mcn>	hi robert_s
	<robert_s>	im trying to watch this 'lost' junk at the moment so i probably won't be that helpful
	<Etienne>	A naviGPS cycle helmet bracket would be handy ;-)
	<robert_s>	i figure its got to have something about mapping, being called 'lost'
	<Etienne>	hi robert_s
	* mcn	went to lost gardens of heligan too (thinking of "lost")
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	<Blackadder>	yo ho all
	<Etienne>	there was a good programme on BBC4 earlier about mapping India, called The Great Arc.
	<Etienne>	hi Blackadder
	<mcn>	hi Blackadder
	<robert_s>	cool. i've got to get a freeview box.
	<robert_s>	ello there Blackadder
	* mcn	notes robert_s breaks the "hi" mold :)
	<Blackadder>	http://www.thegreatarc.net/
	<Etienne>	It was about some Victorian chap called Everest, who mapped most of India...
	<Veggen>	Is there any bluetooth-based gps'es with good receptors?
	<Etienne>	...and accidentally found a really big mountain.
	<Blackadder>	thats him
	<Blackadder>	ha
	<mcn>	Veggen: clive got a Sirf III based one from ebay for about £30
	<mcn>	seems quite good
	<Etienne>	Veggen: there is a bluetooth version of the NaviGPS.
	<Veggen>	I just got a Nokia 770 tablet, so that would be a possible way to increase track storage space.
	<robert_s>	excellent. we're just great big fuzzy wusses compared the the real cartographers.
	<mcn>	was shipped from hong kong within a week istr
	<robert_s>	with our bicycles, sleeping bags and post_boxes
	<robert_s>	Veggen: does the 770 have any audio in device?
	<Veggen>	yes.
	<Etienne>	enxrah: You can load the whole 100m trace into JOSM, but you'd need to download OSM data in smaller chunks. Zoom in to maybe 10x10miles and grab that, then pan and grab the next chunk etc.
	<enxrah>	I love the thumbnails of the gpx traces.... http://www.openstreetmap.org/traces/user/Scooter.DE/8995 fantastic!
	<Etienne>	enxrah: Sportplatz Haar - looks like he only did three laps.
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	<enxrah>	Etienne: The railway is pretty much east-west, so I tried resizing the josm window to a "letterbox" type window, and then panned so I missed out London, but got most of the rest. Seemed to work ok...
	<Blackadder>	enxrah: looks like the dog had the gps while it was chasing its tail
	<enxrah>	lol
	* Etienne	is resizing his JOSM window
	<Blackadder>	Etienne: does that hurt?
	<Blackadder>	when the clocks change, how we goning to use cameras to record street names after dark. Flashing all the time is sure gonna cause some stares
	<Etienne>	Blackadder: no it was a very pleasant experience. It had never occurred to me to do that in order to download an area that isn't square.
	* almien	waves hi
	<Blackadder>	ah ha. well, old dogs and new tricks hey
	<Etienne>	almien: hi
	<enxrah>	Hey, these RSS feeds are pretty neat. Who coded them? That's the second useful OSM thing I discovered today.
	* almien	saw a wiki edit labelled "cake" and thought you were baking for us...
	<steve8>	hi from Steve8
	<enxrah>	(the first was annotation presets in josm)
	<Etienne>	Blackadder: what? you've only been doing during the day?
	<almien>	enxrah: can you see recent edits?
	<enxrah>	Etienne: the other way is to edit the bounding box in the download window
	<enxrah>	almien I subscribed to a feed for edits near my lat/lon. It gives me the lat/lon, date, time & user who did recent edits
	<Blackadder>	Etienne: I'm afraid of the dark lol
	<almien>	ok. I wanted something showing the recent edits worldwide, with username
	<almien>	to make http://almien.co.uk/OSM/PageDesign/ into a working page
	<enxrah>	I don't think it's going to be much use because it lists edits on a per object level I think.
	<enxrah>	so you'd be drowned in data
	<Blackadder>	almien: Like http://brainoff.com/osm/change/ u mean?
	<Etienne>	I don't think http://brainoff.com/osm/change/ has been working for a while now.
	<almien>	don't know, that's just a blank page for me
	<almien>	is it the flash/activeX/whatever thing?
	<Blackadder>	its working at the mo
	<Blackadder>	at least I have 3 red dots there at the mo anyway
	<Etienne>	The RSS feed gives the last 50 or so edits within a specified area (or the whole planet if no area is specified).
	<almien>	so if you upload JOSM with a list of 50 changes, the RSS is all yours?
	<Etienne>	Its working for me now! (Hadn't worked for me for the last couple of weeks).
	<Etienne>	almien: I guess.
	<Blackadder>	And the two dots in the US are one for Ben's tiger import and one for Mikels delete bot. ha
	<steve8>	anyone have
	<almien>	-
	<steve8>	feel for predicting when satelite recption is going to be good. Some days its hardly worth mapping.
	<steve8>	Is it directly proportioonal to cloud cover, humidity or anything?
	<Blackadder>	steve8: There is a specific website for that but I dont have the link
	* almien	read an article saying that londoners had a hotspot at 6am (can't remember details) - so might be a satellite timing issue
	<mcn>	in cornwall last week reception was definitely better in the afternoons
	<almien>	when 3 were overhead, visible between the buildings
	<steve8>	here come the cheap jokes about 6am hotspots!
	<mcn>	any way in JOSM to combine node and segment creation, i.e. click to create a new node + create segment to previous node? would make editing much faster sometimes.
	* mcn	gets bored of doing everything three times
	<steve8>	Blackadder: if link surfaces later whizz it out on talk@osm if you would
	<jburgess>	mcn: I sent a patch to Imi a few days ago which did just that
	<Etienne>	Lets hope the best time in Sutton Coalfield is not during the night ;-)
	<mcn>	jburgess: nice one
	<jburgess>	I'll post to dev list if there is interest?
	<mcn>	i'm not on the dev list atm. maybe I should join
	* mcn	used to code quite a lot; never have time these days
	<almien>	sutton coldfield? is there some lamppost there we haven't mapped?
	<steve8>	what frustrates me is not knowing order of joining of segments. This is so important to avoid street names doing wacky things with mis-ordered segments occur
	<eckhart>	what frustrates me is upload speed
	<eckhart>	one point per minute :-(
	<Etienne>	mcn: The method I use to create a way in JOSM is to add just two nodes and one segment, then make it into a way, and then just add nodes to the way and drag them into position.
	<mcn>	steve8: also ways that contain segments needlessly in different directions...! (oh, and motorways where segments go the same way for both carriageways)... GRRR! :)
	<mcn>	Etienne: that's an interesting idea, might try that thanks
	<mcn>	until jburgess' patch gets in of course (hopefully) :)
	<almien>	steve8: hello! got your presentation ok
	* mcn	wonders if there are any shortcut keys in JOSM; I don't like mice and that would speed things up
	<almien>	mcn: N for node, S for select, W for way, Alt-A for attribute, etc.
	<almien>	mouseover the icons
	<almien>	to see
	<jburgess>	msn: what is your email address? i'll CC you on the patch.
	<Blackadder>	almien: still plenty of lamp_post s to do
	<mcn>	almien: nice, thanks! I never move the mouse that slowly to see them before :)
	<Blackadder>	steve8: Will look for that link. Its here somewhere
	<mcn>	jburgess: thanks! matthew-osm@newtoncomputing.co.uk
	<steve8>	almien: can you give me any more background stuff on the editors, LINUX, etc for HertsLUG talk tomorow (go to email iuw)
	* Etienne	wonders what will happen when Mikel's kill bot catches up with Ben's tiger...
	<almien>	did you get my long email
	<steve8>	almien: yes but couldn't read it. could you resend to steve8 email adress please?
	<almien>	resent about 20 minutes ago - check email?
	<steve8>	* steve8 goes off to check his emails
	<mcn>	Etienne: what does the kill bot do?
	<mcn>	jburgess: got it, thanks
	<Blackadder>	mcn: As I recall its cleaning up ways that were imported with the wrong tagging. I may be off a bit with that though
	<mcn>	Blackadder: ok, i guess for the tiger data, any data?
	<Etienne>	mcn: I thought it was deleting nodes from ways that had lots of segments in a straight line. Not sure though.
	<Etienne>	All its updates are node deletions.
	<Blackadder>	Etienne: ok, that makes sense too.
	<Blackadder>	anyway is a Ben & Mikel thing
	<mcn>	ok, thanks. makes sense :)
	<Etienne>	Blackadder: How is the planning for Rutland going?
	<Blackadder>	have done nothing in the last week. Richard was chasing venues. Need to check with him on the latest
	<Etienne>	Looks like there could be two or three who want to camp - nearest campsite is about 4 miles from Oakham.
	<Blackadder>	If its nice I'll camp too
	* almien	isn't sure whether camping is fun or miserable in october...
	<Blackadder>	if its going to bad i'll retreat indoors
	<mcn>	I should be able to make it over on saturday; small possibility of an hour or three on sunday pm too.
	<mcn>	if there is no internet access then I can upload stuff from home sat. evening when I get home if needed
	<Blackadder>	we will find internet access. I'm sure of that
	<Etienne>	The campsite in Whissendine looks good: http://www.rutlandgreendale.co.uk/ - but says it is only open until 1st October.
	<Blackadder>	Etienne: Untill we have pretty good idea of the venue we cannot really hit the press. And I think we need to be flogging this pretty soon
	<Blackadder>	:-( re campsite
	<Blackadder>	mcn: what u up to with the yokels at the moment then :-)
	<Etienne>	Not sure why Oakham School hasn't come back to Richard - he was a pupil there wasn't he?
	<mcn>	you which? what are yokels? ;)
	<Blackadder>	Cornish folk
	<mcn>	ah!
	<mcn>	was on holiday there last week
	<mcn>	did about 850 miles (recorded on gps) there and back + around the area
	<Blackadder>	nice
	<almien>	ah, talk of kids reminds me
	<mcn>	trying to upload a few bits now, but it seems to have got rather stuck
	<enxrah>	does it make sense to tag a way highway=residential and leisure=park at the same time?
	<enxrah>	or should I create two ways from the same segments?
	* almien	knows scout radio team in dorking area, wonders whether they might be interested in surrey hills mapping
	<mcn>	enxrah: don't think that makes sense; I'd make two ways
	<Dee>	hi alll
	<mcn>	hi Dee
	<enxrah>	but doesn't having two coincident ways cause problems as well?
	<Blackadder>	enxrah: yeah, gets kind of messy trying to make a set of streets also into an area. Better to run a new enclosing way just inside
	* mcn	puts lid on box of bombay mix and spicy peanuts... far too much for one 5 minute sitting
	<mcn>	i've only used the same segments as part of two ways around a couple of car parks; it seems to make sense there, but could be confusing I agree
	<enxrah>	methinks josm needs a "offset way by x m" function
	<enxrah>	There's something on the wiki about one way streets with counterflow cycle lanes
	<enxrah>	that suggests using the same segments in multiple ways
	<mcn>	enxrah: ditto for helping to create dual carriageways; I need to work out the algorithm I thought up a while ago again
	<Etienne>	enxrah: I usually draw separate segments for each type of thing rather than have a two ways share the same segments. Otherwise, sooner or later, you run into problems with conflicting directions of the segments.
	<enxrah>	msn: you just need to take the vector difference of the unit vectors for each segment meeting at a node, then scale by the required offset... at leasts that's what I'd do. Probably need to correct for spherical coordinates somehow
	<enxrah>	msn: unless the vectors are colinear...
	<mcn>	enxrah: it was more complicated than that; designed to help tidy up two lanes of a dual carriageway (i.e. make sure nodes are opposite each other and that segments are equidistant). obviously has limited appeal and needs to be used carefully (esp if carriageways take different routes)
	<mcn>	but the idea should be applicable to any use of "two paths next to each other"
	<Blackadder>	In CAD packages you have simple offset feature. You first set the offset distance, then you select the item you want to offset. Then you click on the side you want to offset it to.
	* jburgess	was thinking about having a "split way into 2" tool, creating two parallel ways with segments reversed on one (depending on left or right sided driving)
	<mcn>	jburgess: that sounds good. my plan was more for careful tidying up of existing paths
	<mcn>	(where path = set of connected segments, not necessarily grouped into a way)
	<Blackadder>	boy o boy, db uploads slow tonight
	<enxrah>	* enxrah was thinking about writing a OSM plugin for a real CAD package
	<mcn>	Blackadder: ah, at least it isn't just me... :(
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	<jburgess>	given that motorways are "complete", tidying is probably as important if not more important.
	<mcn>	yes
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	<mcn>	jburgess: any hints on "compiling" josm (for someone who detests java and where "make" doesn't work! ;-) )
	<jburgess>	"ant"
	<mcn>	thanks
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	<jburgess>	java equivalent of make, just run in top level, will use build.xml
	<Blackadder>	mcn: its thos pesky segments
	<Blackadder>	jburgess: there is still a pile of work to do on the motorways. Most need more nodes, some need to be shifted to fit the gpx better and lost of junctions need cleaning or imputting
	* mcn	suggests wiping segments to improve speed :)
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	<mcn>	oh yuk, /me installed j2 runtime only
	* mcn	gets downloading
	<steve8>	getting motorways REALLY 100% would be big step towards having "usable" data in OSM to offer potential users and raise credibility
	<Blackadder>	its something we can all do. Take a look at any motorway section and see if it can be cleaned up a bit. I've been doing a load on the M6 & M5 over time but still more to go at
	<Dee>	my local is donw
	<Dee>	but i did do 70 miles of teh A27 trunk road at the weekend :)
	* enxrah	imagines doing the M4 on a bicycle *shudder*
	<jburgess>	anyone succeeded in producing a "motorway map of UK" in svg? I wonder if that would highlight problems.
	<Blackadder>	Lots of the motorways are still not ways and lots of tagging still to do
	<Etienne>	I've had a go at the M25, M3 and parts of the A1 recently.
	<Blackadder>	Just making a way and tagging between junctions when you are happy with it is a good start
	<jburgess>	but searching through all of planet.osm to find bad areas make take time and be duplicated effort.
	<mcn>	need a tool to swap segments to different directions, otherwise its nearly impossible in my area
	<Dee>	josm does that
	<mcn>	Dee: really? since when
	* mcn	hasn't seen that
	<Dee>	about 3 weeks ago iirc
	<jburgess>	can josm handle even a UK sized planet.om?
	<mcn>	ah, ok
	<Dee>	no
	<Blackadder>	quicker to do when they are segments rather than as part of a way.
	<steve8>	i produced a rules file to map only motorways and primary roads to check completeness locally but never has balls to download whole country via JOSM
	* mcn	refuses to create a way and tag it "M1" unless the segments are correctly orientated
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	<mcn>	as for other motorways, well they aren't mine :)
	<Blackadder>	jburgess: It will handle the UK (I tried it some time ago) but you need a full extension of memory and its as slow as a squashed snail. Don't try it
	<Blackadder>	mcn: Yep. Agree. But you can select the lot in JOSM and switch with one click
	<jburgess>	that is why I was wondering if someone had produced an easily accessible map to find areas which need improvement.
	<jburgess>	or has plans to improve slippy to handle some kind of summary data at low zoom levels
	<almien>	can JOSM download the rest of a partial way now
	<mcn>	Blackadder: ooh, nice. will try when I've built latest version (if it works :) )
	<Blackadder>	I think you can look at almost any area and see room for improvement. Lots of roundabouts are poor for instance
	<Blackadder>	almien: dont think so
	<Dee>	almien: not without the sourround area
	* mcn	thinks of new tool for "rounding" a roundabout... again, for careful use only of course :)
	<Dee>	anyone fancy translating this to english:
	<Dee>	http://personal.earlsoft.co.uk/osm/DSC00080.JPG
	<mcn>	maybe i'll have to learn some java :(
	<Dee>	mcn: i was plannning on bezier curves in the renderer
	<Dee>	only for roundabouts
	<Blackadder>	I've become a dab hand at recognising roundabouts from a single 1hz trace and drawing very neat cirles on the fly
	<mcn>	Dee: nice
	<Dee>	:)
	<mcn>	i usually draw a square and then add four extra nodes. makes nice roundabouts easily
	<Blackadder>	Dee: There is a patent on bezier curves on maps is there not?
	<Dee>	most i do as a diamond
	<Dee>	larger ones i round off properly (as they tend to have lots of nodes)
	<Dee>	Blackadder: there is?
	<mcn>	but tool should be easy... select nodes, then calculate average point (centre) and move all nodes (at same angle from average centre) to average distance of nodes from centre
	<Blackadder>	mcn: try drawing them in a circle instead. Much easier to clean up later
	<Blackadder>	Dee: We had a discussion perhaps end of last year on it. Google the list
	<enxrah>	Dee: have you tried to rot13 it?
	<Dee>	when im deliberately mapping, i tend to go around roundabouts twice anyway :)
	<mcn>	can also move nodes around the centre if they have not more than two adjacent edges
	<Dee>	enxrah: nope :)
	<Blackadder>	Dee: It may not apply to rendering data but you should check before you spend time on it
	* mcn	guesses it means "no matter how many times you walk down here, we will not allow it to be turned into a footpath"... most people just put "no public right of way" ;)
	<enxrah>	Last time I downloaded the raw gps points for the circus I counted at least 11 laps. Could be more by now.
	<Blackadder>	enxrah: really is a circus then. ha
	<Dee>	mcn: its on all the railway bridges with "footpaths" under or over them :)
	<Blackadder>	enxrah: u hooked up with Graham since the mapping weekend?
	<almien>	just another way of saying "private property even though there are no barriers to prevent walking on it", dee?
	* almien	saw one like that on a shopfront where the pavement appeared to go back "into" the shop a few inches
	<enxrah>	Blackadder: nope. not really had the chance. Didn't have his e-mail until about an hour ago when I subscribed to the rss feed for my area.
	<almien>	you can read 1980 acts online can't you? is recent enough to be digitised
	<Dee>	an older variation...
	<Dee>	http://www.railwayana.net/PhoneAuction/photos/mrlot462.jpg
	<Dee>	"The surface of a highway, whether a public right of way or a road, is owned by the Highway Authority rather than the owner of the land over which it passes."
	<Veggen>	I was on a bicycle trip in England, this summer. Went a way we know were sort of doubtful if we were allowed, but being careful about following only the well-used path, we decided to take the shortcut. But, getting through it, we met a lady who, translated from polite language, really said "get off my land, or I'll set my dogs on you!"
	<Dee>	so i guess its "this really is our land, not a pulic highway
	<enxrah>	Blackadder: did you ever hit on a scheme for mapping "buildings" used as street names, but where opposite sides of the road have different names, etc.
	<Dee>	errrrrr
	<Dee>	http://www.glass-uk.org/pub-library/acts/ha80/s090.html
	<Dee>	in english? :)
	<Blackadder>	enxrah: no. I gave up on that one for now. Best I could think of was to tag the underlying segment with the info
	<alan_>	Hey all, I guess some people are still lingering after the meeting? Do you mind answering a question or two?
	<Blackadder>	fire away alan_
	<Dee>	alan_: go ahead
	<alan_>	So, I've been lurking on the mailing lists for a while, gathering tracks, and now I've started to use JOSM to edit them together. First question, do we need to upload our gpx tracks even if we've already locally made our maps from them?
	<alan_>	I remember there was some stuff on the mailing list that OSM wants to have the tracks as evidence this stuff wasn't taken from a copyrighted source?
	<Dee>	you dont have to
	<Blackadder>	We would ask that you do as they provide some degree of verification of where the mapping was generated
	<Etienne>	alan_: Yes please. It provided valuable evidence of the source.
	<Dee>	but some people think its a good idea
	<Dee>	(I uploaded 62 the other night :)
	<mcn>	Dee: if the highways agency wants to work near a bridge they need to get permission from the bridge's owner first, or the appropriate MP if the bridge owner says no
	<mcn>	I guess!
	<Dee>	mcn: hmm
	<alan_>	Well, my tracks are all from an August trip to Albania (no idea of copyright issues there) and from around home in Vancouver, Canada.
	<mcn>	sounds plausible.... the bridge owner may know things about the foundations / structure that the HA don't (and this is to ensure safety of the bridge)
	<Dee>	ok
	<Dee>	alan_: no copyright on traces, they are yours :)
	<alan_>	Dee: of course... just didn't know if in some countries OSM needs to be more vigilant about evidence. Presumably. I'll upload them in any case.
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	<enxrah>	alan_: I think it's also useful for anybody who comes back and edits the map in your area
	<alan_>	Also, I've been recording them on my eTrex Legend Cx to the SD card, and it creates a new file for all the tracks in each day... but I have 3 weeks of files, so I just combined them into one big gpx file for my own use in JOSM. This file is nearly 6 MB... would OSM prefer me to upload 21 individual days, or can I just upload this big one. Would that crash it?
	<Etienne>	alan_: We have to be diligent about copyright wherever we are. Without tracklogs we have no evidence that the segments were not just copied from some other map. The more evidence we have the better.
	<almien>	there might be a webserver size limit on uploads???
	<Dee>	its 1MB iirc
	<Dee>	but you can gx0x08zip them
	<Dee>	id uplaod daily/event ones
	<Dee>	i did uplaod 60 odd the other day ::)
	<alan_>	I think one of my days is larger than 1MB, even. (I've been recording one point per sec as suggested). I suppose I can break that one up into two if necessary for upload.
	<Dee>	gzipping works
	<alan_>	Okay, I'll try gzipping, then.
	<Dee>	http://www.openstreetmap.org/traces/mine/8858
	<almien>	hmm, I thought multipart form/uploads were required to have a hidden field saying the maximum size...
	<Dee>	was 3MB, 11K points
	<Etienne>	A recent photo of a confusing pair of road signs: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/80n80n/06/DSC06415.jpg
	* almien	must have misread that somewhere
	<Dee>	almien: yes, but im not aware of anythign that honours that
	<Blackadder>	Etienne: ha
	<Blackadder>	so I guess you drove down it then
	* almien	knows you also check it when it reaches the server, but all tutorials seem to send size limit to client too
	<almien>	ah, you need to go down the left, Etienne...
	<almien>	or sell one carefully-selected signpost as scrap
	<Etienne>	Cyclists have to go through the nettles I think.
	<alan_>	Also, somewhere back at the beginning of this conversation suggested making ways of only a few dozen miles, and/or some limited number of segments. However, that scrolled off the top of my IRC history. What is the largest way I should create? I need to draw practically the whole coast highway of Albania, close to 100mi, I'd guess.
	<Etienne>	And this one is, well.., just cute I suppose: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/80n80n/06/DSC06401.jpg
	<Dee>	alan_: there is no real limit(anymore) but I put a way on each distinct part of the road
	<Dee>	so sections between roundabouts are a way on their own
	<enxrah>	Etienne: reminds me of http://www.bathterror.free-online.co.uk/photos/whichway.jpg I took today
	<Dee>	of its one long uninterruted road...
	<Dee>	one long one? :)
	<jburgess>	A quick question about the New Forest weekend.
	<alan_>	Well, there are a few cities along it, but I didn't successfully note where the roundabouts or intersections were, except in a couple cases. I suppose I could break it at that point.
	<Etienne>	enxrah: Well obviously you can do a U-turn here.
	* almien	has one for you Etienne:
	<almien>	http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/178208
	<jburgess>	I may be visiting the area this weekend, is there anything to do there which might help prepare for the proper mapping weekend ?
	<Blackadder>	almien: There was talk of doing one of those near me. The birds kept nesting in the box each year. In the end they had to move the box for other reasons and the new location is on a main road so no more birds
	<enxrah>	almien: do we have a tag for old postboxes? There are quite a few GR ones around here, and even a VR that I can think of. Would be nice to have a map of all "VR" boxes in the country
	<Etienne>	alan_: If you make a very long way and later want to add in a roundabout (which requires the way to be split), then it would be very tedious to re-make the way. If you make several short ways, then it is easier to do.
	<almien>	can't do amenity=postbox historical=VR or something?
	<Blackadder>	ok, I'm off to bed. Later all
	<enxrah>	me too
	* enxrah	turns into a pumpkin
	<alan_>	Etienne: Oh, I see. So, would it help to break it at or near anyplace that I know a city is at, so that future roundabout makers will only have to edit the ends of two ways?
	<alan_>	And in terms of adding attributes, in JOSM can I select multiple ways (all the subparts of my highway) and add the same attributes to them all at once?
	<almien>	yes, can attribute multiple ways
	<Etienne>	alan_: Yes. One day we will have editors that will be able to split ways, but until then its best not to make them too long.
	<almien>	alan_: basically, someone might download a town part-way along and try to edit in detail something which is currently done as a long-distance thing. So they might have to split it to make it fit with their town, and if the way is really long it might be difficult for them to do that without losing information that you typed into the way
	<alan_>	Okay, that all makes sense.
	<alan_>	Of course, in Albania it's not much of a big deal because I have very little attribute information to add to this highway... I could never find any highway name or number for it, even.
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	<alan_>	Finally, has anyone heard anything about the possibility of a bulk import of Canadian data, along the lines of the TIGER import? I remember there was something on the mailing list about that.
	<Etienne>	almien: http://www.lbsg.org/
	* mcn	gets jburgess' add-node-and-segment-together patch working and suggests all JOSM users apply it immediately! :-D really nice!
	<Etienne>	jburgess: You could map the area around the venue if its not already done. Its nice to be able to get to these meetings using our own maps.
	* almien	will print that out incase people think OSM'ers are too obsessive...
	* almien	puts it next to my collection of power tower photos
	<jburgess>	etiene: yes, i'll lookup all the locations mentioned when I go through Brock (assuming they are not already done).
	<Etienne>	jburgess: You could also scout out good pubs and eating places I suppose.