Proposal talk:ElectricScooters

Scooter Ambiguity

Resolved: Avoiding the term 'scooter' as much as possible, using it only in composite words that are not ambiguous.--Mueschel (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

The scooter=* bother me a bit (as a French) because a scooter in France is that: a scooter in French language. I'm afraid it makes a lot of misunderstandings. Gendy54 (talk) 22:21, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

True, but that will be hard to avoid I guess. Those light motorcycles are sometimes called scooters in English as well, but I don't think any other good term exists for the skateboard-with-a-handle thing. I've heard it referred to as a "kickboard" but that seems to be a pseudo-English word invented by Germans and only used for a kind of flotation device in proper English. Mbethke (talk) 05:19, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

This concern came up on the mailing list as well and I fully agree. Unfortunately nobody had a suggestion of a better word yet (FYI, even the German word 'Roller' is ambiguous between the two types of vehicles) --Mueschel (talk) 09:11, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Roller is used in French as synonym for inline skate.

I don't like the name scooter for the above mentioned reason.

According to Cambridge or Collins, it has both meaning... in different order! This is really to avoid!

Hey, Brits, we want to avoid saying scooter_the_big_one or scooter_the_small_one ;-).

if I ask to translated trottinette into English I get scooter. For scooter I get scooter or motor scooter. But the trottinette électrique has a motor too. How do you make the distinction?

apparently you can use moped for the big one. But the one we need is the small one and you seem to use only scooter/electric scooter.

kickboards exist, but a you said, that's for surfing! So yes, Kickboard is an German word!

--Nospam2005 (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Other electric small vehicles

Resolved: Solved by introducing 'small_electric_vehicles' in a separate proposal --Mueschel (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I don’t know what the good words in english, in France we have EDPM (Nouveaux Véhicules Électriques Individuels: individual electric new vehicles) or NVEI (Engins de Déplacement Personnel Motorisés: motorized personnal vehicles) which group new electric vehicles we can now found in our big cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_transporter : electric scooters, electric unicycle, self-balancing scooter...

I think we need a new access group for them, with every kind in it.

In Germany the corresponding law goes with the handy term "Elektrokleinstfahrzeuge-Verordnung". Does it include moped-like scooters in France? In Germany it does not. It also only includes vehicles that need a license plate. I guess that something like "small_electric_vehicle" is as good as we can get in finding a tag that fits to these laws. --Mueschel (talk) 20:51, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Problematic semantic with mofa:electric?

Resolved

This proposal proposes the keys mofa:electric=* and moped:electric=*. I would be fine with this, and also with that that they will be under-classes of mofa and moped. But the proposal for electric bicycles (which is in voting at the moment) proposes electric_bicycle=*, which will be an under-class of bicycle=*. For holding consistency, something would have to be changed here? Or rather use bicycle:electric=* instead of electric_bicycle=* then? I know that in the existing access keys themselves there is not any "consistency" at the moment I think, but when adding new keys for electric vehicles, it would be not very fine to make another "mess", too, if being able to avoid that. --Lukas458 (talk) 19:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, but by the way, my propose would then rather be to change mofa:electric to electric_mofa and moped:electric to electric_moped , because in access keys, the ":" is rather introducing a new "key-part" like in restrictions, when you think of oneway:mofa, maxspeed:mofa etc. But mofa:electric would mean one thing, an electric mofa. So I think electric_mofa=* might be better.--Lukas458 (talk) 14:35, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I think after defining the two bicycle-tags in Proposed_features/ElectricBicycles we should come up with a generic, consistent tagging scheme for all kinds of motor_vehicle=* and all their sub-classes. If this results in SOMETHING:electric or electric_SOMETHING is completely open for me (I'm slightly in favor of ':'). I hope we find a consistent scheme later on, but surely this will include mofa and moped mentioned here. --Mueschel (talk) 15:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Conditional restrictions

Disregard: Conditional restrictions for electric vehicles are a needed feature, but should be discussed in a separate proposal focusing on large vehicles --Mueschel (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I suggest "electric" condition for conditional restrictions, for example moped:conditional=yes @ electric Something B (talk) 22:57, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Adding these electric vehicles to the conditional syntax might be the most flexible solution. I'd prefer to have "moped:conditional = yes @ (fuel = electric)" - there are already a few hundred of these in use as in "motor_vehicle:conditional = no @ (fuel=diesel AND emissions <= euro_6)". This makes it more flexible in case of other fuel-related restrictions. But I think this should be discussed in a separate proposal - is there a way to separate this from the "scooter" issue of this proposal? --Mueschel (talk) 11:52, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

fuel=human or fuel=organic, haha, I like the idea but I think we should use a more flexible key here. How about "engine" or "propulsion"? --Skyper (talk) 12:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

How can we distinguish battery electric vehicles and other electrically driven vehicles, e.g. using fuel cells? That might be important, e.g. if some are not allowed in garages due to the hydrogen gas. --Mueschel (talk) 10:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

How about propulsion=electric:batterie, propulsion=electric:fuel_cell, propulsion=combustion:coal, propulsion=combustion:diesel, propulsion=combustion:petrol, propulsion=combustion:gas or propulsion=living_being?

A new propulsion=* doesn't help with restrictions - we need to add it to existing access keys to specify the propulsion of certain kinds of vehicles. Conditional restrictions should be worked out, but preferably in a separate proposal. --Mueschel (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Concrete examples of access restrictions

Unresolved: Please provide more examples if you know them --Mueschel (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Presumably these restrictions are signed. Could we have some real-world examples please? - Jnicho02 (talk) 09:58, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

There's already one - the second example shows a sign in the wild. I can also provide a few cases from my city, but I don't have an image yet. --Mueschel (talk) 10:13, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, so there is, I didn't realise what it was. - Jnicho02 (talk) 11:11, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Dutch traffic sign G13 () allows (besides bicycles) mofas without a combustion engine (or engine switched off), thus allowing electric mofas. These are typically tagged as mofa=no, but with the increased usage of electric mofas, it would be nice to tag it more accurate. Will add this example to the main page as well. (Technically, mofas with combustion engine but switched off are also allowed, but these are very rare.) Herrieman (talk) 16:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Usage with hire points (and parking?)

Resolved: This seems to be superseded, by the increasing use of amenity=small_electric_vehicle_parking --Mueschel (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I expect that the rationale should be expanded to include tagging for hire points (in countries where you pick up and drop off at fixed locations) and for parking (I have seen kick scooter 'parking' at a UK primary school...maybe adult e-vehicles get preferential parking in some cities?) - Jnicho02 (talk) 10:03, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

That's one of the intended uses. There's a statement about that already, but this can be expanded with examples ("these are keywords that can be used in combination with other features like shops, workshops, parking...") --Mueschel (talk) 10:15, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

We just had a discussion today in our local Berlin OSM traffic group about how to tag such parking areas correctly, as there are currently many places in Berlin where parking for this kind of vehicle is being set up (see picture).

My first idea was amenity=scooter_parking, as this value is already in use (56 times according to TagInfo), plus small_electric_vehicle=designated, and bicycle=designated in this case). A counter-argument was that kick scooters and small electric vehicles are completely different types of vehicles, however, and this proposal also discourages the use of the term scooter. So what would be a good category/key now?

Consequently, we thought, we would have to use amenity=small_electric_vehicle_parking (for situations like on the photo) and amenity=kick_scooter_parking (for areas like this). Further opinions? (Then a suggestion could also be included in the proposal as an example.) --Supaplex030 (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The only time I've come across a scooter parking area in my city, it didn't explicitly distinguish between motorized and unpowered kick scooters, so I tagged it as simply amenity=kick_scooter_parking. In principle, one could park any kind of kick scooter there, but in practice people would only place rented electric kick scooters there. There's no fixture to fasten a personal kick scooter to in order to keep it from getting stolen. The facility mentioned above has what appears to be racks similar to bicycle racks. amenity=bicycle_parking can similarly have a rack or no rack, but we use the same feature tag regardless. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 05:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

The new amenity=XYZ_parking tags seem to deserve their own proposal, because they are an important feature that needs support by renderers. In this particular example by Supaplex030 I would use amenity=bicycle_parking in order to have a common high-level tag, plus small_electric_vehicle=designated. --Mueschel (talk) 18:33, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I think, we need a general term for parking and rental of these kind of small vehicles. I have seen all kind of mixes, therefore I do not like the idea to have a tag for each vehicle type but amenity=small_vehicle_parking or similar and using access tags to describe the vehicles. Using amenity=bicycle_parking or amenity=bicycle_rental is a misuse of the tags, in my eyes. --Skyper (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

+1 from me. bicycle_parking is just the best choice until we have a good proposal. I don't like this segmentation in various keys either. But I think this should be discussed elsewhere. --Mueschel (talk) 14:16, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Self-balancing scooters

No scooter riding and no hoverboarding

Some places are distinguishing between motorized kick scooters and self-balancing scooters, also known as hoverboards. Hoverboard restrictions seem to be common in public transportation facilities. [1] But I've also seen signs saying "no hoverboarding" in shops and along sidewalks. Sometimes they accompany general scooter prohibitions, but not always. Since this proposal attempts to disambiguate several kinds of vehicles known as "scooters", perhaps it would be a good opportunity to document that hoverboard=* (which has a few uses) is preferable to something like self-balancing_scooter=*. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 07:52, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

UK name & regulations

All of these come under the name "Powered transporters" on the UK Government site, and are automatically motor vehicles in UK law. Exceptions currently exist for wheelchairs, mobility scooters, and electric bicycles, with some trial laws about electric scooters (although parking, charging stations etc. for these are now common in some cities). Technically, I think privately-owned electric scooters are not "road legal" in the UK, although one does see them in use. Mostly this information can be used to document tag usage. Following on from this, my only comment is that the UK term of powered_transporter may offer an alternative key names. SK53 (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)