Talk:WikiProject Greece

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Road names language

see Bilingual_names

When I map roads, I use the Greek language and Greek letters for the name key. I put the English name in name:en . Most road names I see are in English. I'm interested on how you think on this issue Logictheo 19:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

There are suggestions regarding adding street names of the type "name:Aristotelous street", instead of just "name:Aristotelous". It's to distinguish square's which might be in the highway:pedestrian category, for example "name:Aristotelous square". Logictheo 10:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You are right "Aristotelous street" is better than just "Aristotelous" but in Greece it is not rare to have extra large names, like "Stratarhou Papagou Alexandrou avenue" combine that with small roads and the map will be unreadable unless you use zoom 17 which has enough space. I am not conclude what is better, but currently i am not adding road characterization until to see that is usable. --Babis 19:56, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer street names in latin letters, because this enhances usability for non-Greek speaking users and mappers. My proposal would be: name=transcription of Greek name in latin letters (Leoforos Nikis), name:el Greek letters (Λεοφορος Νικης), name-en English transcription (Nikis Avenue), name-de German transcription (Niki Boulevard) and so forth. However, this question is certainly subject for some kind of voting.
Concerning the naming of streets and places I do think that adding the type of highway within the name is absolutely necessary. Otherwise it can be (must not) impossible to distinguish between Leoforos Nikis (Nikis Avenue) or Odos Nikis (Nikis Street). It may be that highway type (primary and so on) matches the type included in the name. It is certainly not the case everywhere. Just my 2 cents. -- AiNikolas 13:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
How is it done in Japan for example? I would leave it up to the renderer, and put the Greek name (with Greek letters) in the name-key and the englisch name in name:en... GercoKees 13:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
OSM policy so far has been: put the name in the original language in the original script in the name tag, and the English translation can then go in name:en. I don't know how to distinguish between English translation and English transcript though, I don't know of any tags that say it's a transcript. Perhaps we need to invent something like "name:el:en" which would mean "name in Greek transcribed to English). In your "Λεοφορος Νικης" example you seem to mix the two. English transcript would be "Leoforos Nikis", while the English translation (with name:en tag) would be "Nike Avenue".
Also note that "transcription in Latin letters" is a bit dubious. Different languages use different transcription rules because the same Latin letters are pronounced differently in different languages. --Eimai 14:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know what the word "transcript" means. Now I looked it up and it said a synonym is "imitation", so now I know it. Logictheo 20:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I think I have a solution to the problem, by using osmarender. If a person can choose to render the name from name:en by using the tools provided by tiles@home then osmarender can contain the English name for those areas you want, and the rest who want to see the map in the local language can use mapnik. This would be more like a 'workaround' than a really fitting solution. Logictheo 09:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I suppose that the objective is the usability of map, so the name in map mast much the signs in roads otherwise it will be very difficult for somebody to verify if he is in the correct way. In Greece all roads have signs with Greek letters and in most cases under the Greek names are names in Latin characters. In most cases are transcripted or transliterated but you can see roads with partial or full translated in English, you can see a road with "Nike Avenue" or "Nikis Avenue", so far i have not seen (fortunately) something like "Victory Avenue". While the Greek name it is the only sure thing then the 'name' tag must be in Greeks and optional (but necessary in my opinion) a 'name:en' tag with what is with Latin characters in the signs. If the signs in a road does not have the name with Latin characters i suggest to use transliteration or transcription but not translation because will be very hard for somebody to be understandable from a Greek person when asking for a road.

I will try to explain the differences between terms transliteration and transcription. I am not a linguistic and my English are not good enough so forgive me if am not accurate, i just try to make clear what you will find in Greek roads. Transliterated means that use Latin characters in a way that gives the correct etymology and will pronounced almost correct from everybody understand the Latin characters , in contrast of transcription that gives emphasis in correct pronounce from an English speaking person.The above example "Λεοφορος Νικης" will be: Translation : "Nike Avenue" Transliteration : "Leophoros Nikes" Transcription  : " Leoforos Nikis" --Babis 20:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

We need a button for changeing local- (Greek) and latin-letters. Local habitants use Greek, but tourists and all the worldwide map viewers needs Latin (me too). --Markus 15:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Road names poll

(Poll στα Ελληνικά σημαίνει "ψηφοφορία" και "δημοσκόπιση", ίσως υπάρχουν και άλλες μεταφράσεις.)

It looks that everybody agree to use Greek letters in 'name' tag and Latins in some other tag, but we do not have agreement in which tag. So i set a poll to decide which tag to use. To vote just add your name under the proposal that you like. If you like more than one proposal, add your name in each one. You can add a few words about your decision in the side of your name to help others to decide.

If you have some other suggestion, like to use Latins in 'name' tag or some other tag, you can add it bellow.

I suggest as final day for voting the 15 May 2009 at midnight. This gives a full month of voting that i think is enough.

--Babis 18:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

name:en

If you would like to use the 'name:en' tag for English names in latin letters, add your name here.

  • Babis It is formal and easy to implement it in a map. Tags that are not in the form 'name:xx' (where xx is the two letters for each language) are unlikely to be used by any program so will became useless
  • Mimis
  • I approve. I prefer the English name in English alphabet(latin letters) in this tag 'name:en'. People from other countries have also suggested this to me. Logictheo 12:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Miraclegr

name:en_el

If you would like to use the 'name:en_el' tag for English names in latin letters, add your name here.

name:en:el

If you would like to use the 'name:en:el' tag for English names in latin letters, add your name here.

new proposal for name tag

I would propose following naming structure througout all Greek Map points and ways:

  • name - Name in Greek and English (latter in parentheses) combining Greek and Latin letters - Example: Θεσσαλονίκη (Thessaloniki)
  • name:el - Name in Greek - Example: Θεσσαλονίκη
  • name:de - Name in German - Example: Thessaloniki
  • name:en - Name in English - Example: Thessaloniki

This would lead - as evident in large cities naming - to showing Greek name first and English name in parenthesis following the Greek name. This would serve map readability and usability for people not familiar to Greek.

Concur? Opose? Dismiss? Modify? -- AiNikolas 21:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

For me it seems like a good compromise solution for letting names being shown both in Greek and with English in parentheses. Do you think we should do this for all things that have a name tag? Logictheo 12:22,16:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC) What about asking each renderer (mapnik, osmarender etc.) if they can render the English name alongside the Greek name for us Greek people? (ask if it is possible, and later if we decide this is the right way, we ask them to do it)
On second thought, there's a new project that will soon be added to the OpenStreetMap SVN, and it's called OpenStreetBrowser. From the features page at OpenStreetBrowser/Features#Places, it mentions that they plan to show the name:en=* or int_name=* beside the name=* tag. I'm not sure if it will be rendered on the new slippy map which is also called OpenStreetBrowser or if it will be rendered on-the-fly on any slippy map you are currently viewing. Logictheo 15:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there ist no discussion about the name:<lang> Tags. But I oppose the name Tag as a combination of Greek and Latin. This is specifically a Rendering Issue. So instead of tweaking the OSM-Database to fit the renderer. We should better improve the renerer to check for the name:<lang>-Tags, so he can build the 2-language-Label itself. And even in the Viewers native language. Otherwise we had to extend the name label with chinese, japanese etc. Letters. the name tag should remain only one Name in the native language/letters. Simon Kokolakis 16:47, 7 Oktober 2009 (CEST)

I agree. Renderers should (and some have) implement a way for users to define the preferred language. Adding for example a transliteration in the name tag with the Greek name is also a problem for the renderer: just have a look at Bruxelles in Belgium where they have both the french and the dutch name in the name tag - there are quite a few streets where no name shows even on the highest zoom as they don't fit. Besides, this is more of a problem in let's say China where it's quite a bit harder to learn the symbols. I as a foreigner found it quite easy to learn the Greek alphabet, and then the Greek names in maps are infinitely more useful than the transliterations (or no names at all w/the space problem). Pfr 08:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I dont understood what you mean that there is no discussion about name:<lang> tags. I think that is obvious what to write here. If you mean to define a standard set of transliterations like as AiNikolas suggests, i oppose that based on two reasons. First i suppose that very few are capable to transliterate the names in other languages than English (this is true for me at least), second this will end with a large set of languages tags that will make hard to add a single road name. It is better to leave mappers to add as many name:<lang> tags they want or mappers with knowledge of specific language to add the name:<lang> tag.--Babis 19:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think Simon tries to highlight "But I oppose the name Tag as a combination of Greek and Latin. This is specifically a Rendering Issue." I agree that it is a rendering issue. Although that I agree or disagree doesn't help as long as I don't push the matter forward (finding relevant contact information for discussion lists for each renderer Mapnik and Osmarender, specifically for our country). If I do that(which I hope I will prioritize) then I will put my questions as references here, if they have useful feedback. So it's up to me to do some research right now. Logictheo 09:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Mapnik

I've posted on the Mapnik-users mailing list[0] asking if it is technically possible to do what was suggested with the alternative proposal in this discussion. I'm expecting to recieve replies logictheo 12:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

update A reply[1]

This is really an OSM question, not a mapnik question as such.

I can ask then on the general OSM mailing lists. logictheo 13:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

References

OpenStreetBrowser

Στο OpenStreetBrowser, πχ στο [b0] φαίνεται που τα ονόματα στον χάρτη τα παίρνει από το tag name:el=*. Αγνοεί φαίνεται το συνηθισμένο name=*. Δεν έχω επικοινωνήσει ακόμα για το θέμα που τέθηκε. logictheo 15:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

References

Greek letters αβγ

I have a reluctance to write in Greek, since I think we have contributors from the outside of Greece, but I wonder, is there anyone who expected to see things written in Greek in this page, or did you take for granted that everything be written in English? Logictheo 08:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC) I've discovered recently that a wikiproject uses the language specific to the country. Another wikiproject uses both their local language and the English language. Logictheo 15:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Letters to authorities

I'm considering sending a letter(currently) asking if I may use sources from a map by a local administration(they have a map). I've tried to search in the wiki but not found some sort of template for writing a message to your local administration which has a map for an area. Logictheo 15:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Translation/transliteration/transcription of church names?

What about names of churches, abbeys and monasteries? Usually it is something like Εκκλησία Αγίων Πάντων.

I guess we would tag them firstly with

name:en=Agion Panton Church

(Church of Saint Panton doesn't make sense I guess!! *LOL*)

Shall we tag them somehow also as All Saints' Church? Is there such a key similar to

translation:en={translated name}?

I found bits and pieces of discussions in different locations, but none I found came to a conclusion.


And what do you think about these:

  • Μουσείο Ειρήνη Μερκούρη = Irene Mercury Museum, Eirene Mercury Museum or Irini Merkouri Museum (or...)
  • Αγία Ελένη = Saint Helen, Saint Helena, Saint Helens or Saint Eleni (or...)

etc...

Keep the sound of the name (Merkouri) or use the translation (Mercury) in name:en tag? Maybe we should ask the English speaking community! Has there been any voting? Zeptomoon 21:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I posted topic on Talk:Key:name about this. Zeptomoon 00:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
You could also try to bring it up on the talk mailing list. If you need any help regarding the mailing list I'm available for any help.(be it quick questions or elaborate ones) logictheo 14:38,14:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Road classification?

There is no formal road classification for Greece, so here's me asking for one.

Most roads in Greece fall into these categories, from larger to smaller. I will attemt to classify them along with, what I think might be, a suitable tag:


highway=motorway

Examples: Εγνατία Οδός(Egnatia Motorway), Αττική Οδóς(Attiki Motorway), Ethniki Odos etc.

These are large high-speed highways with restricted access, good quality of road and frequently serviced. I think this picture on wikipedia is very illustrative: [1]

Parts of the motorway system are pretty crappy (for example, the road connecting Corinth to Patra), and should probably be classified as trunk until they are fixed. The picture shows which parts are under construction.


highway=trunk

Large, wide highways with multiple lanes per direction which are not up to standards to be called motorways. Parts of the Ethniki Odos are classified as such, as is the road connecting Corinth to Patra (see above). High-speed restricted access highways which are not quite up to motorway standards should probably be tagged as trunk.


highway=primary

High-speed roads which are part of the national road network but are not big enough to be classified as trunk. Most of these have one or two lanes per direction, and may connect large cities, such as the capital cities of each prefecture (nomos).

Examples: The road connecting Tripoli to Sparta (link) might be considered primary, but the quality is pretty bad in certain places (as the road passes through mountainous areas. Λεωφόρος Συγγρού(Leoforos Syggrou) could also be considered primary.


highway=secondary

These roads have two directions with one lane per direction. Probably wider than 6 meters. These mostly connect smaller cities together and are probably not part of the National Road system.


highway=tertiary

Not sure where this should be used, if at all. I was thinking of classifying wide, double direction roads which are part of an urban network as tertiary, but maybe that should be done with highway=residential and the lanes= tag. I'll need some feedback here.

Edit: It seems that many of the smaller roads in Greece are tagged as tertiary. Many roads tagged as such are not particularly wide, do not occupy multiple lanes, are not high-volume or part of some national network. It is reasonable to tag roads that connect smaller towns with cities as tertiary, roads that connect smaller towns together or to villages are neither high-volume nor large enough for this distinction. Most are do not even have lines or good quality tarmac. --B Lizzard 16:36, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


highway=residential

Most roads in a city are residential. Cars may be parked on either side of the road, the roads may have sidewalks, speed is limited and movement is regulated. Lanes and direction play a large part here.


highway=unclassified

Many of the smaller roads connecting villages together are unclassified. Most are less than 5 meters wide, and the quality of the road might be bad.


I realize that certain roads might not fit these criteria 100%, but I believe that most roads in Greece do. Feedback is more than welcome. :)

--B Lizzard 10:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


I always tag like that:

  • motorways: only the motorways that have a A# notation.
  • trunk: (barely used) only used for motorway-like roads that dont have a A# notation. motorway-like means minimum 2 lanes for each direction. No traffic lights. separated directions.
  • primary: everything that has a notation EO#. Also bigger roads mainly used for through traffic. separated directions, 2 lanes per direction minimum. (pedestrians cannot cross, without traffic lights)
  • secondary: main roads, used for through traffic and residential traffic. (pedestrians can cross with caution)
  • tertiary: medium roads in residential areas, where many residential roads get together. only used for residential traffic.
  • residential: small roads where people live
  • unclassified: small roads where no people live

sk 16:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


Shall we make a guideline for Greece?

I agree, that this is an important issue! I am often confused to find both: some roads (single lane per direction) in the city centre of Heraklion and also the biggest backbone the E75/EO90 tagged with highway=primary. I have not yet quite understood or made up my mind, how to tag various roads inside and out of the city.

Actually, the best might be, to move this discussion to a separate page (and talk page) and try to come up with a guideline like highway=*. There we should also include the lower levels highway=service with service=alley for the smallest roads in the city centres, where only a motorbike or sub-compact car can fit through (maybe also width=2m). And highway=track might be discussed for small badly paved roads leading from and to farms and from a village to another small settlement.

I'll try to come up with some photos so get the picture of what we are talking about. Zeptomoon 18:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi all, it's been a year since last proposal and there are no guidelines around. There are many things to discuss (border keys, highway levels etc) and I have not seen, as a new user, clear solutions. Please sb give me an update, if you know, or just let's start something now... --Radiobuzzer 22:47, 8 May 2011 (BST)

worst proper roads

While visiting Samos, I came across the small roads in the mountains. Had fun driving a quad, but if I had been driving a regular rental car, I would have probably stopped and turned back on a few occasions (if one could turn around). I'm not sure where to draw the line between highway=unclassified and highway=track, and the context is different enough from the small rural roads in my home country, that the same guidelines won't work well. Too many of them were previously classified as highway=track - in the end they're still roads for regular traffic, and mopeds, quads and 4 wheel drive vehicles can surely use them. Often the steepest sections had an apparently quite new concrete paving. Even if there were no signs warning of it, bigger cars (especially buses) could/would have difficulties fitting through the steepest curves. Yet there were signposts telling drivers to use them to reach various (touristic) places. Alv 17:50, 10 October 2011 (BST)

2013 changes to road classification

On 13 May 2013 I was made aware that there is a road classification system for Provincial Roads in Greece. However, the road classification dates from 1956, and it has not been repealed nor updated. Hence, the proposal is that:


Part A - Road classification

Highways in Greece should be classified as follows:

Part B - Road numbering

# represents a number.
  • Motorways: ref=A# (self-explanatory, existing)
  • Expressways: ref=EO#(T) (for "odos Tacheias")
  • National Roads: ref=EO# (for "Ethniki Odos", existing)
  • Old National Roads: ref=ΠΕΟ# (for "Palaia Ethniki Odos", existing since 2010)
  • Provincial Roads: ref=EΠ# (for "EParchiakí odos", existing since 2013)

--Amaroussi (talk) 06:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)