User talk:Verdy p

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Change descriptions

Can I ask that you put descriptions on your changes please? As I'm sure you're aware, this helps people to see what's happened in a file's history at a glance without picking through diffs. Thanks --Deanna Earley (talk) 06:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I note you still seem to be reluctant to add descriptions, especially when meaning lots of changes to pages. Is there any reason why? Thank you. --Deanna Earley (talk) 19:05, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
"Lot of changes" really ? Only one status changed, one line moved, and added a few missing rendering servers: 3 lines concerned even when you group these diffs. The changes were not radical throughout the page. — Verdy_p (talk) 03:42, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
" a glance without picking through diffs.". Yes, you can get that information, but when you make many, small, uncommented changes it's difficult to tell (The same applies to everyone). That's what the descriptions are for. Try doing the same for this list. Thank you for your cooperation. --Deanna Earley (talk) 08:23, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
+1. That edit by you, Verdy p, has a nice description! :-) --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 19:30, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Featured Image proposal

Thanks for taking part in the "featured images" efforts.

I've moved your image idea onto Featured image proposals#Epworth, Zimbabwe addresses heatmap. We can discuss it there, and it'll probably be featured next week.

-- Harry Wood (talk) 23:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I just saw that we were very short of time of having no image this week. I saw a recent image was uploaded and it was interesting. — Verdy_p (talk) 00:46, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Description categories

Thanks for helping with the translations! I actually wasn't sure if it should be done right away, but it seems to work quite well :) — Charel(talk) 11:06‎, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes it works. Now the pages are being moved slowly in the background to the redirected categories. — Verdy_p (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
There are still some issues with groups (pages without any group specified are all listed in categories by group, or when the subcategory for a group does not exist). This will be solved later, given that few pages actually have specified a group. — Verdy_p (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it seemed sensible to that you can see which pages lack the "group" tag. If we don't want them directly in the description by groups category, we can just create a subcategory like Category:Keys with no group specified to store them. Charel (talk) 13:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Note: when you rename a category, just after that, please edit the new redirecting category created to include the template {{Category redirect|New name without the "Category:" namespace prefix}}, so that any content that would remain or would be placed there remains accessible in the new category (which will list the old category at end of subcategories under the left-arrow key, as long as the old category is not empty): we can access its content by only two clicks (the first one on the old category name listed, which will still redirect, then the second one in the status below the title to avoid that redirect).
Placing that template just requires copying the #REDIRECT line below and changing a few characters.
Note also that pages that are still categozing themselves in a redirecting categories, are showing the category in italic: clickin on it will link you to the new category via the redirect, but you won't see that page which is still in the old category; but you can use the new category name after the redirect to update the page.
We must not have categories left with simple redirects as they are usually invisible for most users that don't notice the redirect.
This remark also applies when you translate a category name (leave the #REDIRECT line that allow the navigation bar to work instantly, but place the template in it) — Verdy_p (talk) 12:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Got it. But once they're empty (and not linked to), they can be cleared (including the template) and labelled for deletion, right? Cheers, Charel (talk) 13:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
No, keep the template there (notably for redirected English categories to translated categories). The category will decategorize automatically if it is empty (but if it's still not, you can null edit it).
The English name is likely to be reused when new articles are being translated and not finished. Look at many examples I created, or those created by our Japanese translator that understood why the template remains useful for this case. — Verdy_p (talk) 13:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
However if you've redirected a category because of a bad name (unfortunate but incommon typo) that should never be used again, you can replace the whole content (#redirect and category redirect template) by a {{delete|reason}} request, or delete it if you're an admin.
For synonyms that are likely to be used (plurals, alternate orthography), you can keep also the template, instead of deleting it. It helps more than it hurts. — Verdy_p (talk) 13:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi, it's me again. Thanks for checking & cleaning the Template:Description. I'm just wondering why you removed the last part

      | {{#ifexpr: {{PAGESINCATEGORY:Tag descriptions for key "{{{key|-}}}"|pages}} > 0
        | <nowiki />
  {{!}}-class="d_group content"
  {{!}} '''{{DescriptionLang|Documented values|{{{lang|en}}}}}:''' [[:Category:Tag descriptions for key "{{{key|}}}"|{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Tag descriptions for key "{{{key|}}}"|pages}}]]

It's needed to show the mainspace category if the localised categories are enabled, but don't exist (as for example Cs:Key:crop). I agree that it creates a bit a weird mix of localised and mainspace categories, but that's how it was supposed to work originally (aka before I tampered with it). Alternatively, we could display both , like Documented values: 0 / 20. What do you think?

On a different note, I get a feeling that you are quite active cleaning up behind me. I thank you for that, but I don't want to cause unnecessary trouble nor work, so I'm wondering if there's a better way of taking this on? I tried to present some of my changes on the Template_talk:DescriptionCategories page, but the overall response was (understandably, in a way) not overwhelming. I'm wondering if posting to the forum would help? I'm not very keen on joining the Talk mailing list, as it is just very general... Cheers, Charel (talk) 03:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

That part uses a second test which is not on the same language. Only one category is referenced, using multiple calls to PAGESINCATEGORYT also adds 1 expensive call. The statistic is not essential there, it should just indicate those that are effectively documented. For effective usages there's Taginfo that gives more accurate numbers.
I wonder if this is only useful to difplay two numbers (we just have to look at the English page if needed, but it doesnot always exist for tags described only in another language) — Verdy_p (talk) 03:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I thoght it would be a subtle way to indicate that the English documentation is more complete (and thus might be worth a quick look), but yes, it would need one more expensive call. Anyway, we can just leave it as is, should be fine too. Cheers, Charel (talk) 12:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Given that we have a navigation bar everywhere, the English page is just one click away to give its own statistics. Let's keep this statistic per language, without unnecessary complication.
Anyway the various tools trying to read the documentation (e.g. JOSM) do not use this number, they try locating pages directly, or use Taginfo.
It is in fact more useful to display what is actually translated in a language, not mixing between counters in English or counters in local language, depending on each key.
The value of this counter is very low anyway. And Taginfo statistics are also displayed in boxes. — Verdy_p (talk) 12:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Why the second list of languages?

Could you please explain the point behind Having a single list of languages in one template in the order they are displayed in (not spread over two) makes the code transparently maintainable and templates in this wiki need to be maintainable by people other than you. Furthermore the edit reintroduces Corsican (corsu) links that are no longer hidden by default, for instance from Map Features that uses the beta template; there was a comment in the version you walked over but let me repeat: there are no pages in Corsican in this wiki, Co:Map Features was a content fork of Spanish.--Andrew (talk) 20:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I progressivley tuned the work you have left behind. Testing on pages, testing also on mobiles to make sure all was OK. I integrated a CSS tweak needed for mobiles (due to the way they increse font sizes in non standard ways). The list is just simpler like that. Also the code is faster (I verified that), uses less memory.
There is Corsican on this wiki. Note: this not just the home page. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
I am talking about the change that introduced a dependency on User:Wynndale/Languages/Interface, not the earlier CSS changes. The existing template needs a separate /interface template to control the number of times that #ifexist is called. This one has no such need. Your version has the lower transparency of two different lists; one of them is not in the order displayed and the other one, is someone ever copies it over whole, has traps for the unwary such as no and nb that are both Norsk bokmål and WMF-specific stuff like simple English. In fact it actually has mismatches: Tamazight is not displayed because the /div template has zgh and the /interface template has tzm, which cannot happen when there is only one list. This is not so obvious because you also removed the command to show the red links. I repeat again: there are no pages in Crorsican on this wiki and every single page beginning with Co: is in Spanish. This cannot be changed without administrative intervention (renaming leaving redirects behind cannot work).--Andrew (talk) 07:01, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
But your initial list was not complete. And tzm also exists, zgh was possibly added later but since always the full list was maintained on the base template and this is exactly the same.
I absolutely don't care if there are some Spanish pages in "co:", there are some pages in Corsican that correctly use the "co:" prefix. Those spanish pages must be renamed (or if it's not needed becuse there's a regular Spanish page, those "co:" page should be redirected to the English page) but that's another issue (and this does not require any admin to do that).
There's no reason to hide Corsican or any other language.
The 2 lists are sorted differently: one by code ensures that they will be used only once, the other was sorted using an external tool (actually sorted in Excel in a two column table containing the code and the translated language name, so that they match the display order) containing many more living languages (even languages for which we still don't have content, the list being longer and needing little management: to add a language only the first list need to be there, but it remains uncomplete as long as we don't have content for them)
There's always been these two lists and this caused absolutely no problem: only the first one (sorted by code) needed edits sometimes for a new language (the second list already had that code).
Verdy_p (talk) 07:07, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Note about Tamazight: there were two pages created in one case with the wrong code (zgh instead of tzm) the list you reverted was already correct since long, but the first list in the main template was modified by someone trying to link this incorrect code. I've merged the two pages into one, now only tzm is used (zgh is marked for deletion). I made several tests on this language and fixed a few other things in their pages to make them work correctly with the languages bar. "Tzm" was just a draft for now, except in one page for Wikiproject Morocco that had actual content (and now can use the languages bar)
I've also fixed a few missing languages you had forgotten in your version (but were present in the main version), and made sure they were sorted correctly.
Also you claimed that the main Missing languages template was showing red links, it is not the case, your version and the main version were in fact fully synchronized and I check all links, none of them are displaying red links in any case: those languages that sill have no translation for the Help page will link to the English fallback page. Those that have actual translations already link directly to it (avoiding the single #ifexist when using the LL template to determine the target). — Verdy_p (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

all translations are sorted in "/"

Hi Verdy p, thanks your explanation. Didn't know this - whyever it is that way. Not really obvious. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:14, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Tranlations are a separate from the rest of the content in the current language. That convention is not new, and is used also on other wikis (e.g. on Commons). — Verdy_p (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and why a DEFAULTSORT there? That's equal to the page title?! --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Because translators forget to set it and just copy-paste the English page. They don't realize that the translated pages name include the language key, and that when the page is renamed in their language, the sort key is also adjustable. — Verdy_p (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Also the default sort key is shared (independantly of categories or hidden categories). — Verdy_p (talk) 23:04, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I have added a DEFAULTSORT to the development language template that removes language prefixes such as Pl: or Ar: from page names in categories. I think this is more robust than adding lots of sort keys to pages that become wrong if pages are moved or translations have different names.--Andrew (talk) 21:39, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
This does not work when pages have translated names. And there are lots of pages that have their own sort key which is not the full english page name but a different part of it. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:44, 11 May 2016 (UTC)


...for editing the "OS" userboxesǃǃ ː-D --Ziltoidium (talk) 08:22, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes they were generating random categories (the parameters were tested with case insensitive, but then used as is for the category names! — Verdy_p (talk) 08:24, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Could you help me with this following Userbox of Mapillary? [1] ? So far the problem is that "User A" adds fotos as "User A". But what, if an OSM user has a different username at Mapillary? It should be better "User A" adds photos as "User B". Hope you understand what i try to explain ǃ? Thanksǃ --Ziltoidium (talk) 08:51, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Use the 1st parameter to specify the alternate username on Mapillary, if this is not the same as the user name on this wiki. — Verdy_p (talk) 09:50, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

But where do i have to add this paramater? In my userbox? I don't really understand what to do now. Sorry ː-/ --Ziltoidium (talk) 09:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

E.g. {{User Mapillary|Ziltoidium-2}}, to replace your local user name "Ziltoidium" (on this wiki) by "Ziltoidium-2" (on Mapillary web site). Which gives:
Mapillary Verdy p takes photos for Mapillary as Ziltoidium-2.
Note that my own user name is shown in this example at the begining of the sentence, as it is my local username (as seen on in this talk pagename). — Verdy_p (talk) 09:58, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

AWESOMEǃ Thanks so much --Ziltoidium (talk) 10:06, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

You've done the same thing on your user page for Twitter (you twitt with another @name than your account name on this wiki)... — Verdy_p (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

So many useful tipps and error corrections. A good day for me, i am happy i met you. Thanks for your helpǃ i learned quite a lot --Ziltoidium (talk) 19:36, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

LL - what for?

Hi Verdy, that new syntax is quite complicated. What is its benefit? I did not find it on template:LL too. Thanks! --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Not complicated, it helps tracking missing links, it tests the presence of the link but if it is there it will display the correct link. It is a helper, if there's an actualy translation it can be replaced by a static page name (but experience proves that many pages are created without correcting many links that could use it. There's no surprise, it helps advancing by providing the Englihs fallback if there's still no translation, which could come later). — Verdy_p (talk) 02:02, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
So does this mean it has no effect in the English pages? It seems quite a big impact on link syntax in that case. Do you plan this to be used for all English pages? --Tordanik 05:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
It does not impact English pages, but it helps each time an English page is translated (it gets copy-pasted to another language and this parameter is too frequently forgotten, translators are not aware that it is needed in their new pages.
It also helps each time the English page is moved to another name (to preserve the existing links from all other existing languages): It will keep the old name before the move that is still being linked to, even if this is a redirect. Here also Experience has shown that all other translations were not updated to use the new links and that new redirects or moves were forgotten in translations. With it the languages bar continues working from the Englihs page or from all other translated pages. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Capitalization in TranslationOf pages

Hi, you changed the capitalization of various translation templates, e.g. [2]. The only place where they are used (afaik) calls for caps, at least in the languages I'm familiar of. So I don't really understand why you edited, can you explain? --Tordanik 05:52, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

No these templates have the same name. The capitalization was not consistant across these languages. I only made them consistant. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Making it consistent is good. But it's used as labels in infoboxes (see ES:OsmAnd for an example). Thus they should be standardised towards uppercase, not lowercase. --Tordanik 09:14, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
I know these boxes. It's because they needed to be consistant that a few of them were changed back to lowercase like they were initially. Only German uses uppercase because it is a grammatical rule for nouns but this rule still supported by Germany, is criticized and no longer mandatory in Switzerland: the German rule explains why non nouns are also forced to lowercase initials in all cases). Traditionally German used lowercase too for nouns ! forced Capitals became the rule only late. But here we just adopt the default capitalization as found in dictionnaries when they carry a distinction: those labels are NOT sentences, and are NOT titles and not even section headings. They are less important than what follows them. — Verdy_p (talk) 00:48, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
The infobox labels are basically table headings, and should be capitalized. See Wikipedia for comparison, they capitalize labels in their infoboxes. I see no reason why we shouldn't. --Tordanik 21:23, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Hands off whitespace

Stop removing whitespace from templates right now. The mass changes make it needlessly difficult for anyone else to review changes. Many people other than myself have complained to you about this. This wiki is a resource for developing OSM and is not your private playground.--Andrew (talk) 12:58, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

But there was NO mass changes: read the diffs successively they are small, and contain corrections discovered you just drop silently.
Also you continue with false assumptions... I've corrected them one by one when I discovered them, and you drop all at once.
The extra category you want to create is not necessary. The ns parameter is still needed because your code to remove it "magically" is still wrong !
I've passed a long time fixing these, including for talk pages that do not work with the ((TALKSPACE)) as it is NOT the same from one language to another.
E.g. Talk:Xyz becomes DE_Talk::Xyz, or FR_Talk:Xyz, but but Talk:Cs:Xyz or Talk:Da:Xyz; if you are in the German talk page, ((TALKSPACE)) will give "DE_Talk:" which is wrong to link the talk page in any other language (you cannot append the langage code). — Verdy_p (talk) 13:04, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
When things are discussed and evolved for more than a month where you don't look at diffs, you will only compare a too long period: the diffs were small (even the standard formatting of spaces was separated and did not cause a large edit by itself. Then the following are self-explainatory. Look at the comments and diffs you've lost completely in 2 months,n during which the tests were actually performed on more pages along.
You are not alone to see that, there are other contributors using other languages and that want to see their languages with slower delays, but with without ignoring the past and their needs they provided in several talk pages that you've forgotten to follow. Things were corrected for Japanese, Arabic, Tamazigh, Czech that you have not listened (and they are summarized in my small successive edits in the diffs).
It is not hard to follow, but I've not made any radical change.
Before suppressing the ns parameter you really need much more thinks... I've integrated your tracking category (that you forgot to create). All things that you did were kept by me inclujding this (unnecessary) tracking category. Most pages have been using it, ignoring it blindly will cause errors (that you do not want to detect). 13:24, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
No, you listen to me. You often don’t understand other people’s work and therefore you imagine problems with it that don’t really exist, or maybe you’re just a control freak who likes to make your personal imprint on everything. Because of your lousy edit summaries and wilful reformatting there is often no way to tell anything useful from the cargo cult programming edits that you like to make.--Andrew (talk) 22:12, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
You're wrong, I commented every change that you rollbacked blindly. And I've understood everything you've done (I never reverted blindly, I integrated every change you did, even with this needed reformatting that fixed incorrect significant spaces). You just ignored all comments (notably because there were fixes for Japanese, as I detected bugs you did not want to look at even when it was explained. You added extra spaces that were visible or that broke the logic (e.g. for sort keys where you inserted significat spaces). You wanted a bit more indentation in your template, OK they are present, but my code has always been correctly indented (as much as possible, as long it does not break, however for small spans where the braces are paired unambiguously, there's no need to add excessive ones).
Each time you've rollbacked things, the same bugs reappeared. I recorrected them one by one, testing them each time after looking at various test pages. I also scrupulously looked at server parsing statistics, each time my version was saving about 20% of compute time and several thousands of nodes on expansion (avoiding breaking long pages due to parser limits).
Your own edits did not add any comment in fact, and you did not test them really. And we know that you're completely unable to use history correctly (notably diffs in the rare cases you look at them). — Verdy_p (talk) 07:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
And once again your blind revert has broken all past fixes which were commented multiple times (in the edit summary or even in the code itself) ! You wanted indentation every useful indentation was there. In fact I wonder if you understand anything to Wiki syntax. My edits were not just indentation a different way (even if your own indentation is in fact incorrect and largely excessive), there were real fixes. — Verdy_p (talk) 07:12, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
You’re doing it again. Your edits to Template:languages include large amounts of changes to whitespace that are unrelated to any problems but make revisions difficult to compare. Therefore the only way to keep the template maintainable in the long term is to revert the completely. If you think I'm wrong to value long term maintainability feel free to drum up support for your stand.--Andrew (talk) 14:52, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I do not and will not judge your or anyone else’s edits on a minority of the changes while ignoring the majority. In this case the majority of the edit is a massive reformatting of whitespace that stops the differences from being identified and makes the code less clear for maintenance in the future.--Andrew (talk) 19:37, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
OK, are you willing (1) to make minimal edits that are as easy to review as possible because there are no mass changes to formatting, changing your editor settings if you need to, and (2) to discuss all design decisions you think I got wrong on template talk:languages? --Andrew (talk) 14:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Need your help again with a template

Hi, i created a new Telegram template, which i copied from the existing twitter template and just modified a little.
Like at the twitter page now i want to do the same at the new Telegram page and add the Telegram Icon for some additional shiny bling bling.
But at least here the tables are making a mess when i copy the template there. Could you have a look and try to insert the template in a table there? Where is mistake? Thanks in advanceǃ --Ziltoidium (talk) 07:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

It's simple! You've added newlines that are part of the included code, and that will break pages where the template is within within a table cell or within bulleted or ordered list, or within a definition list or block indented by ":". This template MUST remain inline, without any extra newline in the included part.
Note that there's no such restriction for the "noinclude" section containing the categories for the tempalte itself, but you must NOT add newlines in the category specified in the "includeonly" that will be used to autocategorize pages translate the template.
The code was correct in the template for Twitter, you just not copied the Twitter template by changing the doamin name, but you added those incorrect newlines that transform the content into an initial span not necessarily in the same block as what follows. In summary you broke it just because you though it was more readable like this, but the effect is different, notably when the template is used in tables !
20:16, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanksǃ I hope i understood your solution, will have a look again at this weekend. I created two more userboxes meanwhile, what do you think?
Template:User hails from europe
Template:User hails from germany
The first one breaks down continents to states, the second one states to its "sub states" (dont know the right word". I thought a more complex "all on one template" would brake too easy maybe, if i do this with more modifiers, like "user hails from europe/germany/Berlin". Do you think this is ok or would you do other way? Then i would create more in the future for Americas, Africa, Asia, France and so on.. would you seperate Americas into North- and Latin America? For this europe template i did not take "European Union" but the geographical europe from wikipedia which includes e.g. Russia and Turkey as well. Greets --Ziltoidium (talk) 03:46, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Updateǃǃ I just found this Template:Flagicon. Could this better be integrated into the "hails from" template? Maybe it would save a lot of work and cover the whole world already.

an what? Sorry, that is not really helpful. What did you why do? I mean, where is all the deleted content? 5000 bytes. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 21:06, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

The content is split, not deleted. Bing is larger than just Bing Maps. All links are to Bing Maps. Bing is a separate entry. — Verdy_p (talk) 05:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Seems unnecessary to me. "Bing" usually refers to Bing Maps (or even specifically the imagery) in OSM. See the countless source=Bing tags. And the page previously mentioned the distinction in the introduction, so there was hardly any confusion. --Tordanik 14:44, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
In map data of course it refers to Bing Maps. But Bing is larger than that. Even the Imagery is a limited scope, where we have data in OSM that are not related to its imagery, but used as references. — Verdy_p (talk) 14:46, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, but "ouch!"... even if this split would be good, what about the countless wrong links Special:WhatLinksHere/Bing now (do not "fix" them now)? Likely the links mostly mean not bing maps, but "bing maps aerial imagery which is usable by OSM". And in any way, please use the wiki edit summary! The edit is a copyright violation now. You just insert content which you did not write - but other wiki authors, who are not even partly mentioned by you. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:03, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Copy violation ? No. The same licence applies, this is the same site. Both continue to be linked together. Splitting a page is a normal activity on any wiki. And both histories are kept. This is not finished and the wiki will conttinue to have other restructurations. There's not been any deletion of content. And anyway this was the initial title of the page.
Yes there are other links they don't necessarily speak about Bing Maps. But no link is actually broken, they are just one click before Bing Maps. "countless links".... hmm not that many really.
If articles are saying "Bing", most often this is wrong, the abbreviation is unfair, they are not talking about "Bing" but one of its services. This must be corrected (precised) everywhere, because many things are forbidden in OSM about Bing, that are authorized only in a specific service of Bing, i.e. only its Arial Imagery (which is not directly reproducable but can be used only as a background layer for creating vector data imported in OSM. Other things (including textual data or information from Bing Maps is not even free for use by us). If you consider the copyright issue this is MUCH more important to fix on this wiki, rather than talking about my alledged (false) copyright violation. — Verdy_p (talk) 06:42, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
The Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license requires to name the authors. How should one know the authors from looking at ? You just add 6.472 Bytes with no author or source given. It is only reasonable to assume that you are the author of those 6472 bytes. Yes, splitting pages is needed sometimes in all wikis, but you should document it properly - also to adhere to the license!
Countless? Well - it is more than 250 in total.
Yes, the reader can click through Bing Maps. Still, it was nicer before - for the readers. The article authors had linked to bing and there the content was. By your change this is broken.
Yes, you are right that more precision might be good, but just (more or less) moving the page without taking care of the links is not really good. Many links were intended to go to the bing aerial imagery description. Now they land on a description of the company bing.
Not a company but a generic brand by Microsoft. Microsoft is still the company, even if Bing is cobranded with Yahoo participating. And that adds to the confusion because We also had Yahgoo imagery up to 2011, now over and integrated into Bing (which also integrates now Nokia data transfered to the HERE division, Nokia being now only a brand for mobile devices by Microsoft.
All this needs cleanup and separation. Yes there are wrok to do, this is jsut a start. — Verdy_p (talk) 07:34, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
what about "Bing aerial imagery" as name for THE page? bing Maps nearly only consists of it and we DO NOT use bing maps for tracing but Bing aerial imagery. And then we need to fix the links and history/authors then. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2016 (UTC)


Thanks for the edit summary and the translation! It would be better, if you had noted that you are (apparently) not a native speaker of German (fixed). --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:51, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to add what is missing there are still a couple of things missing — Verdy_p (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Url encoding in Template:User_username

Hi Verdy p. Thanks for the cleanup effort on my userpage. You are right, the use of Template:User username looked strange. By closer inspection the template now handles url encoding as it should. The template doc however was not in sync with the template. I have updated the doc. miki (talk) 11:49, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

There are various cleanups in this area, I also make sure that all these templates line up correctly in user boxes with coherent sizes and alignments.
The docs were saying this did not work, but I've fixed that and checked with various users including you to see how they passed the argument (notably those having spaces or undescores or non Latin user names)
Sorting all this mess takes time to check everything, the doc is a secondary issue (frequently the docs were not even showing the correct examples, or some templates were not using coherent naming, or were incorrectly categorized (notably transalted ones that I will probably deprecate to use autotranslation. — Verdy_p (talk) 11:53, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Featured tile layers

In you added Is it supported by operators of this map style (see Featured tile layers/Guidelines for new tile layers) See also Talk:Featured_tile_layers#Proposed_layers Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 22:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I added it in 2013, but it is still continuing to be supported (and is one of the default layers proposed by the French QA tool ""...)
Anyway I don't really understand what you're asking for (the link about guidelines for proposals does not contain any contradiction: the tiles have worldwide coverage, with updates in the minutes at low zoom levels, it is constantly improved, supported by the French mailing list, as a Trac bug tracker. See the links provided for details, you'll find contacts. 23:41, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
I am asking whatever maintainers and operators of this style support displaying it on main OSM web site (what will significantly increase server upkeeep costs and complexity) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 00:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
We know that Mapquest is now closed, this is also discussed on the French talk list, which was also speaking about the Wikimedia alternative (but this is still a beta and not fully operational).
I am not the maintainer of this layer server. Ask to the documented contact or write to the Frnech mailing list, about what youy want to do.
The French tiles are documented since long on this wiki, and used for QA tools, and it was shown in State of the Maps several times becauser it contained various improvements that have been partly implemetned in the OSM default Mapnik rendering (many POIs, rendering names along borders, shadings, showing green borders of natural parks, tuning the selected names by criteria, better placements of labels, infering abbreviations (in French and a few other local languages, rending sportive areas, placement of arrows on oneway highways, many other details). 07:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
So you asked this only to REMOVE the entry ? Your question was not clear at all ! This entry is there since 2013, and it was regularly announced and discussed on the French mailing list.
Your individual removal is unfair, I've restored the entry (the guidelines you cite above have NOTHING that follows your supposed rules). Did you even search in the past mailing list ? May be you don't read French, but the tiles service is there since long (even long before 2013, it existed before the HOT rendering also made by OSM-FR). People have regularly beend encouraged to use it, and the official OSM-FR site also regularly posts about this map. I've restored the layer (in its proposed section, only because it is not featured on the main OSM site). This layer follows all rules on the Guidelines : worldwide coverage, active support, official publication. It has been cited many times including in World State of The Maps. It has also been used to show possible improvements for the Mapnik default rendering (and some ideas were implemented).
This tile server has a bug tracker, most French OSM users use it. It has excellent performance, even if it is not meant for now to be reused on third party websites because it targets mostly OSM mappers.
The tile server is ALSO presented in the list of supported layers on UMap (which is intended for creating custome maps on third party maps). UMap is also supported by OSM France.
Bad guess from you. And the way you asked your question was really not clear (probably your level of English was insufficient to be clear about your intent). You did not ask to anyone before your undesirable deletion. The presence of the layer on this wiki page was not clandestine. — Verdy_p (talk) 12:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
And if you want to know, Christian Quest (OSM France) manages this server.
See this diff:
Do you really think he would have left that entry ? He added more details about this support, he did not delete that entry. 12:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
"Proposed" section on Featured tile layers is not for all good tile servers - it is already covered by Tiles#Servers. This section is for tile servers proposed to be available on the main page. And such proposal must fullfil some requirements described on Featured tile layers/Guidelines for new tile layers. Starting from "Internally supported. The service provider/author must be in favor of having their tile layer on the website.". Is there any clear declaration that people resposible for running servers for this map style currently support displaying it on the main OSM site? It is not the same as running tile server for their own site. And if "it is not meant for now to be reused on third party websites" then it is not fullfilling mandatory requirement from Featured tile layers/Guidelines for new tile layers Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:50, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
You're using your own invented rational, this is NOT what is in the guidelines. And this is supported by the official maintainer of the tile server (who participated to the redaction of this entry), and has been discusssed and presented since years.
"Proposed" means that it may be included in the main page as it fulfills ALL conditions (free for general use, maintained, worldwide coverage...). The decision to include it on the main OSM site is still up to the Foundation (that included Mapquest but has removed it even if it is still active until July 11). Look at the links in the entry everything it explained...
You deleted it as if the maintainer had not proposed it as well ! This tile server is much more active and maintained than all other proposed ones (which don't fulfill all conditions) !
Verdy_p (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Did you realise you edited another user’s signed comment?

Were you actually aware that you were editing someone else’s comment? I take it you aren’t the same person as Vmeurisse.--Andrew (talk) 21:18, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Farsi or any oder RTL language template

Hi, I noticed that you changed Template:Fa I know that the last one was incorrect, too. Recent days I wanted to translate OSM wiki to Farsi/Persian which is a Right-To-Left language but that template and also this one which you have edited has a big problem. We couldn't use WYSIWYG editor because all the page (all paragraphs, tables, columns, and contents) comes under this template and only "Edit source" is usable and translating with "Edit source" is really hard. If you use "Edit" tab in Fa:Main_Page you would find my problem.

Is there any way we use Wiki editor in Persian too?

I don't understand your problem. Yes the tempalte used with parameter does not close its div, but using bdi is not correct as well because they do not nest cleanly.
The tempalte has been used mostly to setup the content of the page, and notably setting the correct classes for all other mediawiki contents that depend on direction (notably lists)
Yes it does not close by itself, but you may close it using an explicit "</div>" at end of the page (not needed because MediaWiki already closes all open divs at end of the content...)
A the remplate is supposed to be used near the top of page, it does not conflict with anything (the documetnation was missing however I added it).
I also added the possibility of including a parameter 1 to include it completely in a "bdi" section (which is then explicitly closed, so that thye can be nested correctly), because this is apparently what you wanted to do (various tests you did were breaking pages).
This has been used since long in Arabic exactly the same way.
I added better styles for free fonts, and also changed the font-size to use the initial size (browser default) instead of a incresing the font size (because MEdiaWiki is seyup by default not with the initial size but with a reduced size, that the font-size which was initially in the template was attempting to revert for Arabic, however, this was not correct with all skins, the simplest way to revert the font-size change was simply to use the "initial" font-size, for which the browser works; the font-size reduction reduction forced by MEdiaWiki is a bad thing, which only works well with Latin, and does not really help users.
I linked the other RTL templates for Hebrew, Arabic, Farsi and Urdu (the most popular RTL languages) in the new docs.
Verdy_p (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Also I just tested the Farsi Main Page, and there's absolutely no problem with the Visual Editor, even if the div is not closed explitly (why did you comment out this template which works exactly the one for Arabic?). The problem was only when you tried to use bdi instead (without closing it). MediaWiki has special support for div, not for bdi (that must still be closed explicitly, even if this is also optional in HTML5, just like with div). Ideally MEdiaWiki should support bdi as well, but this cannot be solved here, you'll need to send a bug request to MediaWiki. For this reason I restored the initial div (bdi is only used when it is explicitly closed, but only with a nonempty parameter 1 for its content). You also broken the Android support, and added a duplicate "Tahoma" font (in fact a very bad one only meant for Windows but not very good for something else than basic Arabic) in first position, I moved it only last, where it was. — Verdy_p (talk) 17:40, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Note you wrote me an email about this. We know that there are layout issues with RTL languages, but this is progressively being solved. The code you attempted to patch was in fact completely incorrect, the code before was correct even if it could still be improved.
Over time during past years, many broken attempts have been made by users that actually don't understand how CSS works or the effects of the wiki syntax. I've corrected many of them with always the goal to maintain the wiki syntax usage minimal. Templates are tuned and becoming smarter over time.
But note that even if Farsi is not a lot advaned on this wiki, there's been significant work in Arabic and Hebrew, and most cases are already handled. There remain various layout compatibility problems in many places difficult to locate (and not always easy to fix in complex templates that do most of the work, so that this compelxity is hidden in articles).
However I've not seen any problem when using the Visual Wiki editor (it works well for example on the Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew Main pages). Be careful not tweaking fonts only for your PC, this wiki should work also on MacOS, Linux, and mobile OSes, and some fonts are not widely available for common platforms or not free and not reusable on other platforms (e.g. "Tahoma" is specific to Windows, the "free" version is in fact not free, and much more limited than the version provided now in Windows, and it still does not cover the Farsi and Urdu languages correctly).
Also please the "mw-*" class names. Avoid also inserting newlines everywhere you think it is more "readable" in templates: the result after inclusion in articles may be catastrophic. Templates require much more scrupulous syntax than articles (and notably generic templates that will be used on lot of pages: the Template:Fa is in fact not very specific).
If you have problems using the Wiki editor, it would be good to know which ones you have, or on which pages this occurs. May be there's a technical thing to add to pages, so don't hesitate to ask for help.
Finally be careful when designing pages that they will work reliably on small screens such as smartphones, and accessible to readers: don't assume specific font sizes (there's a wide variation depending on devices used: avoid pixel units as much as possible), and encode your text in the logical order, not the visual order! — Verdy_p (talk) 22:38, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Apple iOS

Hi, in the future, please supply a reason when moving a page, either in the Move tool or on the talk page. I don’t really have a problem with the page being called “Apple iOS”, though I figured “iOS” made more sense, since that’s the name the operating system is commonly known by. I’m trying to make the page more usable for end users who wind up there from Main Page and Software. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 00:34, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

"IOS" is NOT a trademark of Apple In summary, you need to explicitly specify "Apple"...
Citation: "IOS is a trademark or registered trademark of Cisco in the U.S. and other countries and is used under license." (without the Apple prefix it designates the wellknown OS running on Cisco routers).
"IOS" is a trademark of Cisco since much longer, and it is also the name of several companies (including a Canadian company working on geographic data). The full name is Apple iOS, and the logo always associates the Apple logo with "iOS"... — Verdy_p (talk) 00:38, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this information; I was unaware of the Canadian geospatial company. (This government agency is what you’re referring to, right?) Since a trademark is in question, it’s probably relevant that it’s Cisco that consistently prefixes their usage of “IOS”, not Apple; moreover, the {{lowercase}} template allows us to force the “i” to lowercase in the masthead (if not in category listings). With the lowercase letter, we can unambiguously refer to the Apple operating system, though I concede that it probably makes no difference legally. In any case, as I mentioned, I don’t have a strong preference, except to ensure that users can find the information they’re looking for. iOS (Apple) would be just as well by me. Incidentally, when you move a page over a redirect, please remember to fix any double redirects that might arise. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 00:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
There was NO double redirect before, there should not remain any, unless you started to fix them the reverse way. What is important is that Even Apple has not registerd iOS as a trademark, but only registered iOS as an attached brancd and the logo was consistaently always with the Apple logo (in an earlier attempt, Apple tried to releas an independant logo for iOS, and lost a trial with Cisco: the trademarks page on the Apple site was updated. Adn the Cisco IOS is definitely not something unknown. the term IOS has also various synonyms, including as a common abbreviation for I/O's...
Writing it "IOS (Apple)" would just be worse than simply "Apple iOS" (which does not need the {titlercase} quirk, given the article title is still a capital.)
There's also a "IOS Geoscience" company in Canada working with geolocalized data and solutions. And in few languages, IOS is the same as "ISO" (the International Standard Organization).
The "common" usage of "iOS" alone is not so much universal. (Well we should probably also use "Microsoft Windows" rather than just "Windows" (after all I don't see why we could not have mapping feature related to windows on houses...). Same thing about "Chrome", better written unambiguously as "Google Chrome". As a general rule, when there's a conflict with some brands, we first try to use the official full term before adding disambiguation suffixes (and suffixes in parentheses are uncommon in English, and it would not be better to have "iOS, Apple").
Verdy_p (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Rest assured, I don’t intend to move the article any further, even though I disagree that there’s much of a conflict here. (In all the years we’ve had this article, no one has bothered to start a page here on all these other things that could be called “IOS”.) As a point of clarification, it’s interesting to note that, after lots and lots of discussion, Wikipedia eventually decided to rename their article to simply “iOS”, reflecting the stance that “iOS”, unqualified, nearly universally refers to Apple’s OS. Windows was brought up as a counterexample, but the difference is that Microsoft considers “Microsoft Windows” to be the full, official name of the OS, which is not the case with Apple’s OS. The Apple logo never officially appears in conjunction with the iOS wordmark, unlike in the Apple TV and Apple Watch logos. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 16:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

I've always seen an Apple logo attached to the iOS logo, except when they are present on Apple products that already have this protected Apple logo.
I've pointed that Apple explicitly says on its official site that "IOS" is not their trademark, and does not even list the "iOS" variant as their trademark. Nothing appears on the Apple trademarks page (it appeared only for a short time but was then removed, because Cisco protested and Apple found an agreement with Cisco). On publications by Apple, the Apple logo is always present and attached. Packagings for Apple products featuring this OS never claim the trademark, but proeminently show the Apple logo itself, "iOS" is in fact not really promoted as a brand like "iPhone 5" (and most often the term "iOS" is not even present).
It is abbreviated only for convenience on the proprietary Apple website or documentation. On other sites "Apple" is removed only if there's no ambiguity (for example in articles explicitly speaking about Apple devices). But we cannot name the article "iOS", only as "IOS" (you may lie on the presentation of the page but this wil not change the fact that the article would be named only "IOS", not "iOS", and it's impossible to distinguish "iOS")
The situation is different for "iPhone", or "iPad", or "iTunes" which are officially trademarked (and not contested) independantly of lettercases.
I don’t think you could find a single instance of Apple referring to the OS as “Apple iOS” per se. If it were merely a matter of convenience, you’d expect to see “Apple iOS” at least in the “Definitions” section of legal agreements such as [3], where they’re obligated to fully spell out any names, their agreement with Cisco notwithstanding. Apple has promoted iOS as a brand ever since iOS 3. (Before that, it was called “iPhone OS”.) You don’t see the wordmark advertised at Apple Stores, but you can find it prominently all over Apple’s website [4][5]. If it’s hard to distinguish between an ordinary reference to iOS and the iOS wordmark, that’s intentional. (They also promote individual iOS versions with special logos.) The mere fact that the Apple logo appears on the same box or the same webpage as the iOS wordmark is irrelevant. They never put it next to the wordmark. Compare to the logo here. Yes, Apple had to license “iOS”, but that hasn’t stopped them from changing the facts on the ground to favor their product over Cisco’s. Anyways, it’s clear that neither of us are convincing each other, and the page is staying put regardless. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 19:15, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Did you read ???? Why iOS is NOT listed ? Simply, it is not a trademark, unlike "Apple" which is listed, along with "iPhone", "iPad", "iTunes" and so on (which are followed by the registered symbol, or trademark symbol). It is only used as a convenience on places where "Apple" is explicit.
Go to the "iTunes" site Apple is not shown everywhere, "iOS" is never used alone, they display "iPhone", "iPod", "iPad", or "MacOS" (which is also attached to a device, but has some technology licences for use on non-Apple hardware, notably on PCs where they are licenced with Windows Server. The iOS is only documented as a part of another product, from which it is not separable ("iOS" is not a separate product, you simply can't use it legally on non-Apple devices due to licensing restrictions, it is in fact not even traded separately; iOS is the most restricted OS that has ever existed, even more restricted than MacOS; Unix and Windows are more liberal, even if they are not as free as GNU/Linux). — Verdy_p (talk) 19:17, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Wow, I didn’t expect to go down this rabbit hole when I started working on the Apple iOS page the other day. :^) Changing the subject a bit, do you have an opinion on what I’ve done with Apple iOS content-wise? Do you think it would be desirable to bring this layout to pages about (less restrictive) OSes, like Android? For iOS, it was possible to make the list of applications manageable merely by filtering out all the applications that hadn’t been updated in 18 months, but I’m not sure what a reasonable cutoff is in the Android world. There are simply a lot of apps, and I don’t want to be accused of unfairness by curating the list a bit. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 19:40, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

No problem, there's lot to do to better recategorize the various apps, tools and devices (and anyway, most of them are in fact working across device ans platforms. There's no need to categorize everything unless it is very specific. In most cases, a list of supported platforms would be enough without overcategorization in many platforms for products that are not really designed specifically for these platforms. This is the case of most webapps (not even targetting a specific browser, unless these are browser-specific extensions, or mobile apps designed to run only from platform-specific mobile stores, but even in this case, apps exist for several mobile mobile stores such as Google Play, Apple Store, or Windows Store, with only a thin compatibility layer and the rest almost unchanged as those apps are now using HTML+CSS for their UI, plus some common frameworks ported to work across mobile platforms; additionally those frameworks are not really specific to OSM or just cartography, such as jQuery that works almost the same on mobile platforms, mobile browsers, and desctop browsers and now as weel for standalong apps on desktops; same thing about Python, Java, and most javascript frameworks made now by Google, Apple or even now Microsoft, because HTML5 federates all the requirements and conformance level needed, and integrates complex components such as database storage, audio/video codecs, accessiblity tools and IME for input, and discovery and description of various I/O devices, including virtual devices; another important protocol is RDP that allows remote execution, using standard codecs for audio/video capture and rendering, WebGL and the HTML5 canvas, HTTP(S), Rest APIs and WebDav, JSON and XML data formats, and other common standards for security and now even for virtualization and delegation of tasks to other remote devices on demand...).
So basically we only compare devices now for their performance, or energy efficiency and autonomy on mobiles, for their form factor or for their local storage (to save network usage). And for their hardware plugged or wireless connectivity (Ethernet and Wifi are now ruling, along with USB and Bluetooth for more local usage, plus 3G/4G mobile networks when away from home; 4G mobile networks are now even faster than Wifi whose frequency bandwidth is very limited, but economic for use). OSes no longer play significant differences, and even the UIs tend to become almost identical; even the hardware between devices are almost identical (you'll just pay more to have wider screens or better colors, but you may loose on battery life, or on mobile data subscription plans if you need the cloud for your storage). — Verdy_p (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree that many OSM-powered applications are cross-platform thanks to using hybrid toolkits like Xamarin. But judging from the iOS and Android listings, the majority of applications (particularly navigation) are native, so I think it still makes sense to categorize applications by platform. The reader knows which platform they care about, so it’s an easy way to filter out applications right off the bat. An iPhone user shouldn’t be overwhelmed with all the Android apps they can’t install anyways. This way we can tailor the page to the platform’s characteristics. For example, Apple iOS has links to the iTunes App Store only, and the comparison table doesn’t need cells like “version a.b.c $$$ for iOS but version d.e.f free for Android”. Android, meanwhile, should probably say which app store each app can be downloaded from, because I’m sure there are Android apps you don’t download from Google Play. But for Windows Phone, Firefox OS, etc., there’s little distinction between native and hybrid applications, so a cross-platform Hybrid applications catalog would be a great idea. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 21:16, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Moving Relations/Proposed/Dual carriageways

Hi, what's your reason for moving Relations/Proposed/Dual carriageways?--Jojo4u (talk) 09:04, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

It fell in the wrong category because of the name used in the template, and did not match its use (the tag value displayed was wrong); now it is really a proposal and this has not changed. The status and the "abandonned" category is still there (given it is abandonned it is not even a proposal anymore).
Note: fixing the categories of proposals is in progress, but there are conflicting templates that don't use the status given the same way (one scheme uses a lowercase initial "abandoned", another scheme wants an uppercase initial "Abandoned", this will be fixed later). Sorting them by language (independantly of their status) is advancing, and allows now cross language navigation. — Verdy_p (talk) 12:15, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Tinkering with "Nottingham" page

Can you explain what you were trying to do with please? It doesn't make sense to think about Nottingham as a "City in the East Midlands" in the first instance - it's in England. Arbitary divisions such as simply don't exist on the ground in any meaningful sense. Having a link to the ceremonial county allows us to link mapping activity in Nottingham with the wider Nottinghamshire area. has essentially no content on it. Can I please suggest that before you make changes such as this that you try and discuss with local mappers first? The "talk-gb" list would work for this, and so would #osm-gb on IRC. --SomeoneElse (talk) 16:21, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

I've not changed the fact it is in England. Those categoies were hald filled, sometimes duplicate. Nothing is wrong... And "Places in..." is a general category scheme used everywhere, I am grouping things accurately in the correct place, with overcategorizations. The cateogies are already used since ling via the {{Place}} but they are not cross-linked and many items are missing everywhere. — Verdy_p (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
If you'd like to make changes here please discuss first. Do not, as you have tried to with , try and start an edit war. --SomeoneElse (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
The wiki says the opposite: We boldly do, then we discuss when there's a problem. I don't see the problem at all; what you've said is simply wrong: East Midlands is as region of England, the first level of administrative divisions in England, and Nottingham is really BOTH a city (in its region and legacy county) and an unitary authority. The categories are being sorted out, deduplicated and with coherent names. I'm also fixing the cases of homonyms. Finally the naming is being regularized so that templates can use the correct categories (without red links that people will fill in to create duplicated categories that are now merged).
Those categories are being refilled with all wht is missing. They were already there but used incoherently.
All this was also stated in the article itself and also visible on the map ! — Verdy_p (talk) 16:45, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Just to be clear, the East Midlands is NOT "the first level of administrative divisions in England". It's used for some statistical purposes, and is (currently) a Euro-constituency. On other pages you removed all useful categories (e.g. ). It is unhelpful to say that "Derbyshire is in a category of Derbyshire", which is how you left that page. OpenStreetMap is a collaborative project, and pages like this affect lots of people - we need to work together, not perform unsourced ad-hoc tinkering without thinking or discussing how pages are actually going to be used. --SomeoneElse (talk) 17:12, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Look at the article about regions of England, which states it is administrative. There are also counties (metropolitan which were already listed). The categories for regions were there since long, but incomplete.
And no I've not put Derbyshire as a subcategory of Derbyshire... Note that these categories do not strictly speak about the admin status (this is stated in OSM data). It does not matter, those 9 regions are there independantly of their status... — Verdy_p (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I do not need to read a wiki page to know what administrative levels of government there are between me and Westminster - I live here! Please don't spend your time added thousands of unnecessary categories to our wiki - go out and map something instead! --SomeoneElse (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I've not created these 9 regions, they were already there (and they are also in OSM) ! — Verdy_p (talk) 17:30, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
After looking at the other similar edits you've actually made a bit of a mess of things. For example, former metropolitan counties have no adminstrative function (e.g. South Yorkshire). Local government there is handled by unitary authorities (in South Yorkshire, the largest are Sheffield and Doncaster). However, South Yorkshire is still a ceremonial county (it has a Lord Lieutenant) and some quasi-government services operate across its former area, including the police and public transport. These pages that you are tinkering with are created by and for mappers, and whether they organise themselves by administrative regions, ceremonial counties or geographical features is entirely up to them. Pages that you've created such as are both ridiculously incomplete (it's missing the vast majority of unitary authorities) and useless (why would anyone even want "only the unitary authories" in an artificial statistical region, but not the county and district councils?). --SomeoneElse (talk) 18:09, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Did you note that the two categories "County in England" and "Counties in England" were merged (the 1st redirects to the 2nd one, whose name is already used since long by Template:Place) ? And that the correct category name is already generated by Template:Place ? Most place pages do not need any explicit category if there's already a matching category name where it will be the main article. adding categories may be necessay only for other things (e.g. adding Mapping parties, or caegorizing for other projects related in the content of the page). Geographical entities almost always are part of a subarea (or area). Template:Place already uses the category:"<place type> in <area>" and fills it automatically.
You've reverted that on Nottigham.
Also I know that there are several types of counties, but I've not added them. They were already in the wiki (and most of the time mixed together simply because they did not qualify the names or used incorrect redirects). I've just kept the existant as is, for now, grouping what was needed. However it does not mean that no other changes are needed. Many of these pages are old, but not updated because they were difficult to find. Now it is easy to find them. You've just stopped a cleanup in progress. — Verdy_p (talk) 18:18, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
And "ridiculously empty" is wrong, given that not everything is listed (but the pages exist, and just have to be listed properly). I was filling them by collecting the relevant pages. — Verdy_p (talk) 18:20, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
"Why would not someone want districts"? only because they are not unitary authorities. They are also in their relevant categories for their type. I've already collected all counties for 3 regions. I was also collecting the unitary authrories, but I cannot do all at once. All existing categories were already mising many items (they were even less populated than they are now).
I've done that on cities, towns and villages (many red links in existing place article are now poiting to the correct category). There are tons of missing categories on this wiki (notably those generated by templates: some of them were created, not all, I've filled the gaps). It was already imossible to have a complete view of the admin structure of England. For the UK level, the cleanup is almost complete (grouped by the 4 countries; excluding the overseas British dependencies that remain separate), even if there remains some details. England is more complex only because of its 9 regions and because of the transition from counties to unitary authorities (that still coexist). Most towns/cities/villages are still in their legacy counties, very few indicate their correct unitary authority, except the largest towns or cities. I don't intend to add categories per village. But categories per region or per county have been created here since long (but this was less than half-done). — Verdy_p (talk) 18:35, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Edit descriptions

Hello again. Can I remind you once again to add descriptions to your changes? Especially when you're changing hundreds of pages a day. I have to go back a long way (I gave up to find an edit with a custom description). You have been blocked until to read and acknowledge this. --Deanna Earley (talk) 17:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

These are incremental changes, they are viewed. — Verdy_p (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I cannot make all edits at once, before looking at other links. If you speak about the classification of feature description pages, I've solved thousands of red links, and now they are all correctly linked in all languages (except a few ones that have a single page in them for minor languages). Editing requires first creating the english category name, then redirecting it. Then looking at relevant categories in the language to locate them. Possibly creating them where they are missing, or deduplicating them. This cannot be done all at once, but I avoid leaving red links or broken links.
I've also solved thousands of double redirects, or duplicate categories with similar name for the same purpose and merged them. — Verdy_p (talk) 17:22, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Also look at the many edits used everywhere by everyone: they don't give any edit description; I use them when there's an ambiguity or things that may still need work (pending further edits after fixing something else).
Verdy_p (talk) 17:30, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Please re read my request and try and understand what I'm actually asking. You've not addressed it yet. Maybe this link (Included below the edit window) will help. --Deanna Earley (talk) 17:25, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Where ? I use comments when this changes radically things, not for minor edits (e.g. typos I could detect, such as missing letter or plural). And I'm not alone. There's no need of any description for page creations (it is autofilled, the comment is then not empty), especially when they are created from a red link and the content to fill in is almost automatic (and reported in the autofilled comment). — Verdy_p (talk) 17:30, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
So what is each of these changes? or [6]? Or [7]? Or [8]? Well, that's 200 unknown changes, and I don't know anyone that wants to check each individually. You know what needs to be done. Will you do it? --Deanna Earley (talk) 17:42, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Oh! I see you're seaking about the "Server status page" ? Yes I've filled incrementally missing links (after looking at each of them). Yes those edits where grouped in a few minutes but extremely small. I've also completed the list of servers that was not maintained since long, looking for the infos where they were. I've not broken the page at all at any time. And this all this was done on a couple of days, last month or long before. If somewthing was broken it would have been reported, nobody complained about that, and a few other people then filled in some other details. There were already discussions since long saying that these pages needed some actualization. Things may have continued to change since I edited it, I've not checked it more since last month. — Verdy_p (talk) 17:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
No I'm not. --Deanna Earley (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
OK these all were red filling links, and it was done coherently. Yes I was adding a new nav template on these pages, because it is simpler to navigate between them instead of going through two links to see brother pages in the same parent. What is done here is very basic and the diffs themselves for these additions are very explicit on separate lines of code).
May be you've been contacted by the previous discussion above, because a user thinkgs that he does not need the English regions (even if the wiki say they are official, he thinks they are not). I've not removed at all the traditional navigation by counties, I've improved it, and correctly grouped everything that was for the same English county (those categories existed or were linked by the Template:Place or missing, or were using different variants of the same name with the same meaning, and the edit to unify them was evident). I've not changed the content of these articles (unless I saw a preexisting wiki syntax problem, for which I made the minimum needed to restore the functionality or a basic readable layout). I avoid changing actual information.
Also I detected a few ambiguities in links for unrelated regions, which were not disambiguated correctly.
Verdy_p (talk) 17:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Finally I don't know how you count, but your links are not pointing to 200 edits without comments in my recent edits. Most of them have comments (it is autofilled for creations: do you mean that for these creations I should delete these description and enter my own which would contain much less info than what is autofilled!). — Verdy_p (talk) 17:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
There's one case where I don't enter any edit, it's for full edits (because this server has lags or bugs in its internal cache, I sometime just need to ad or remove a non significant whitespace from the page so that it is refreshed correctly: these are solved by newer versions of MediaWiki, but this wiki uses an old version or is very slow to show the changes, and may continue to show a red link for a page that is actually already stored and accessible). In that case this is a second immediate edit after the first one (and this is not a problem of previewing it or not). When you see two successice edits on the same page, the second is most of the time a null edit, you can run diffs on the group or look at them individually: the history shows that.
I've no problem following many edits, and in fact I receive many notifications. If I need to correct something after someone else, I always add a comment to explain what was wrong.
Look at the global history, I'm not alone, everyone (even those with long experience here) do not comment minor edits or null edits. — Verdy_p (talk) 18:03, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
So what can I do ???? I've read, and in fact there's nothing that I broke that would be demonstrated. I was replying when you just blocked without discussing. OK I've made a few errors, but I've corrected them as much as I have seen them, I regularly check lots of errors everywhere on this wiki and I have fixed a lot of them (but it's true that sometimes it required trying and changing a few things soon after). For things that I have doubts, I usually provide a comment in the first edits, but I forget it when fixing something rapidly after: those edits are grouped and have the same purpose, I don't think it's useful to add the same comment or just a ""oops!": those grouped edits are a whole under the same comments. For some cases there's a new added goal and I add another comment. For basic things that don't alter the existing content (e.g. adding a navbar, or fixing a typo), comments are not very useful (it's more urgent to fix errors that could be seen, because I test many things after and look at dependencies to see how they are propagated in various cases: if this breaks too much (and this is not an obvious error in the other dependant pages which can be corrected simply), I'll provide the fix for compatibility (to help the transition).
Look at how I've cleaned up many missing categories in this wiki, and cleared all double redirects that were no longer working. I've helped lots of users that had problems with the wiki syntax, by providing them some better templates doing the magic. I've made the wiki accessible to all languages, notably RTL languages that still need various fixes. I've documented many templates for which the doc was missing or very incomplete. I have provided examples of use, or additional testcases as samples in doc pages. Complex templates are now working with more cases than before.
There are lot of cleanup tasks in this wiki, but too few people work on them, and this cumulates over time up to situations where people no longer understand what to do and try to create many variants for the same purpose, and these variants are then complicate to maintain globally (notably across languages that rapidly go out of sync and that are complicate to update together coherently).
When people don't understand things, I try to explain and I add some more docs. My goal has always been to create manageable content and to maximize the ease for translators or people that want to add new contents for their communities or local projects. Many things were initially developed on this wiki that only work with English and were never tested for other languages (frequently with layour issues, but also linguistic issues).
If possible I try to create or update templates so that less parameters are needed (even if this requires some more "magic" in templates... I have fixed also various CSS issues for usage on mobile phones/small screens, or for better HTML semantics (that will help other browsers presenting the pages very differently, or for accessibility). Templates will do most of the work, contents of page will concentrate on the semantic.
Supporting the visual editor is also challenging (for now few templates have JSON descriptions).
Categorizing the contents coherently and completely for the most important pages has been a goal in the last weeks, this work is almost complete. I still have works on OSM cartography that require access to project pages to follow them. With this block, I will no longer be able to follow what is needed or track the progresses (there are other tools but they don't always provide what is needed, or data is too much fragmented). — Verdy_p (talk) 20:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Wow, that's really way TL:DR; All I'm asking is that you add edit summaries. Yes, other people also don't add summaries, but no one else edits hundreds of pages at a time for some vague unknown (to other people) reason. This is one of the conditions of the ban being lifted. If we notice any other significant runs of random wiki changes with no indication of what they are for, you will be banned again. Understood? No more discussion, just yes is all that's required. --Deanna Earley (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, and now ? You've not changed anything, anyway I was far away in the last few days, don't have time for now, I'm going elsewhere again for the next two days and the 2 next weekends. — Verdy_p (talk) 16:13, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
And now for just fixing typos, and solving red links... These was just minor cleanup, commented where it was not complete but still solved some of the problems... I also solved double redirects again. Really Deanna you're just overlooking this. I've not deleted anything. If you think that broken links everywhere are here to stay... — Verdy_p (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Deanna. Verdy_p, please, please just leave a short comment, so that others can see that you did a typo fix - without looking at the diff. Just "typo" as comment is fine. Wikis are about working together and without edit comments that's hard. Also keep in mind that not only one person needs to look at a diff if you do not use a comment. Other people also could use their time more useful than for looking at diffs - if you would use comments. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:06, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
It's really quite simple. You edit lots of pages, you add suitable edit summaries. --Deanna Earley (talk) 21:51, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
It is also helpful to use meaningful descriptions and not just random sequences of words, for instance if you knowingly break category sorting so that all pages in Portuguese appear under P you shouldn’t say it doesn’t happen.--Andrew (talk) 06:00, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
You are yourself knowingly breaking category sorting that was alreayd working since years without using *any* defaultort from a template that cannot generate the correct sort keys.
I've repeatedly told you that sort keys are NOT just exactly the page title, notably for non-ASCII scripts.
That is precisely the corner case that defaultsort=no is there for. People have been adding it where it is needed and in fact it is unnecesary in language namespaces (including ja:)--Andrew (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
Sticking {{DEFAULTSORT}} doesn’t work when pages are renamed. An actual example was the category category:ES:Buildings which was moved to category:ES:Edificios but was still sorted under B in categories.--Andrew (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
And your "random words" is just an insult here. I've used meaningful descriptions everywhere (not the case for you). I've signaled you problems that you wanted to ignore and that were later signaled to you. You finally saw the problems and made very late some bug I had signaled you (but included it without any comment). In fact you don't understand what you do or anything people are saying to you, or do not want to trust anything rom others (there's been already 4 persons reconforming and doing everything that I correct well the first time, and that you blindly reverted.
And when I told you that your indent was wrong, it is exactly becauise it was wrong and caused errors in several places where you did not match the correct braces. Iwanted to exhibit it to you, but you never want to read anything. This was not just reindentation but always corrections that you wanted to ignore, even when others than me were telling them to you or wanting to do the same accurate corrections I did the first time.
You have consistently refused to edit without ripping out the brace placement that makes it clear what matches what and that I used to get the syntax 99% right and to set up long term maintenance, or to teach anyone else what syntax you think is a problem. I have come to the conclusion you are trying to set up a personal priesthood consisting only of yourself; why would you say I am wrong?--Andrew (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
No: I demonstrated that your understanding of indentation did not follow the correct pairing rules, in your code the braces did not match, and finally (after reverting me too many times) you have admitted sliently it in your most recent edit : I was right since the beginning when you persisted in your error. Your placement was NOT clear at all and this caused that error you did. In fact it was completely inconsistant by itself and I had regularized it. Multiple times I have tried to signal your errors and now you are just seeing them because there are other people correcting your code the same way I did the first time. — Verdy_p (talk) 21:28, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
You actually want other people to make edits you think are wrong so you can abuse them, even people like Math1985 who try to be nice to you.--Andrew (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
What ? Complete non-sense. Those that corrected you were not "abused" by me, I did not even contact them. You are just lying or inventing. I can prove that you made errors that you finally admitted (silently) when these other people corrected you again. You just don't trust anyone than yourself and you are only assuming I'm wrong without checking anything and admitting your own errors. — Verdy_p (talk) 23:32, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
You have no excuse, you have abused this wiki and broken it repeatedly.
It's not the way we work on a wiki: we cannot do radical changes by ignoring everything that is already present and that still depend on a feature. You have to preserve the compatibility even for things you want to deprecate; and as long as dependant pages are not migrated to use the replacement features, you MUST preserve this compatibility.
And finally you MUST read the docs: you have repeatedly ignored what was documented, and never documented what you added yourself (even the existing examples in the doc pages were no longer working! but as you don't read the docs...). — Verdy_p (talk) 08:24, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Ambox style

Hello. I see you reverted my edition in {{Ambox}}. Why exactly should we "keep a minimum margin below" if the other following elements almost always have their own top margins? I was trying to make it look better, more like Wikipedia-16px.png Wikipedia's Ambox, which look better in sequence, because of the left coloured borders getting uninterrupted. "Borders never need to overlap", sure they don't need, but why couldn't they? And, about the negative margins, I did it to avoid a thicker 2 px border between two Amboxes. Well, okay, they're negative, but, really, what problem could just one pixel cause? –Virgilinojuca (talk) 23:21, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

There's already an option "stack" that controls their superposition for the following Ambox'es. For all other cases, there's no need to overlap these box with the rest of the page that margin is small enough to not cause problems anywhere !!!
Note that margins between two elements are combined into a single one: it is the maximum of the bottom margin of the first box and of the top margin of the next element that is taken into account, and not the sum of the two margins. Margins don't work like paddings, even if both not part of the "height" of the element, so margins are already overlapping. To "stack" two boxes, only the 2nd box needs a negative margin, and this is what the stack parameter already does. — Verdy_p (talk) 00:06, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Note also that the example on Wikipedia is incorrect by 1 pixel (these boxes are overlapping the border on top of the "content" area of the first box). This causes problems in some cases with csome contents (such as hiding one significant pixel in the inner image, or gluing some letter descenders with the bottom border (so a "g" looks like a "q") with small font sizes or on displays with low resolutions. — Verdy_p (talk) 00:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Finally note that some browsers (old versions of IE or browsers running in "quirk" mode for compatibilty with IE) are counting the border width within the margin or as part of the height (this quirk was fixed in CSS3 using a new "box-sizing" property): the default border being 1 pixel, we need an extra pixel to compensate, so the margin is 2 pixels and not just one. (note also that 1 pixel in CSS is not necessarily on pixel on display or when printing, i.e. a "CSS pixel" tuned for visualisation of bitmaps and fonts with good readability; most smartphones today use 2 devices pixels or more or 1 CSS pixel; CRT displays or video projectors may display less than one device pixel per CSS pixel as they are more "fuzzy": to display correctly a 1-pixel wide border on CRT, we need some minimum contrasting margin and usually fonts with larger sizes in CSS pixels). — Verdy_p (talk)
The reason for the top margin is that here it is used on many pages where it would collide with floatting elements above it (notably images). On English Wikipedia the negative margin used unconditionally causes various problems, but Ambox is only used at top of pages or at start of a section after a sectio nheading that has enough margin to avoid collisions. On Wikipadia howver we very frequently have to use Template:Clear to avoid those collisions, and this does not work in all cases, so we constantly have to adjust the placement of floating elements instead (this is a bad thing for notably for illustration images). Here you can get the desired stacking effect using a "stacked" parameter on every Ambox, except the first one (but this use case is in fact extremely rare, Ambox is most often used only once). — Verdy_p (talk) 00:30, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for you answer. I didn't know about the stacked parameter. But how would I activate it in a Template that uses Ambox? For example, I tried something in {{stub}} but it didn't work. Can you help me with that? –Virgilinojuca (talk) 03:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Nevermind. I got it. Thank you anyway! —Virgilinojuca (talk) 04:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
The stacked parameter was already within the line you edited. it's a simple flag that only enables the negative top margin (but does not change the bottom margin): use it on all Amboxe'es you want to stack, except the first one. I made an example in the doc page of the template for stacking all boxes together, and documetned it (because it was still not documented but was already implemented since long). — Verdy_p (talk) 04:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Also note that many templates found on English Wikipedia won't work on this wiki.
  • First: this wiki does not have support for Lua Modules so things have to be simplified, or they assume some complex structures of adminsitration that this wiki does not have and will never have, such as article quality tools, reviews, Wikipedia project trackings, microformats, templates generating content from Wikidata: we don't use Wikidata in OSM, but Wikidata may import OSM data);
  • Second: too many templates developed on English Wikipedia will not work on international wikis that have stronger requirements (notably compatibility for RTL languages, or assumptions on fonts or text lengths suitable only in English, or assumptions about sentence ordering and grammar, also only valid in English).
If you want inspiration, really don't look at Wikipedia which is typical of what not to do on this wiki ; instead look at Wikimedia Commons (which is international), or on Mediawiki-Wiki (which uses a more basic set of features not requiring many extensions not installed on this wiki, so that its documentation can be installed and viewed on all wikis without these extensions): these two last wikis are really making efforts to support many languages and scripts (and it would break too many things in English Wikipedia if the same technics were used there): the English Wikipedia is too much specific and cannot be a model (not even for other Wikipedia editions!). — Verdy_p (talk) 04:50, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


How is it helpful to change the category of level0 to "level0" ? --SomeoneElse (talk) 00:06, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

There are several pages and a category, and a template all related to Level0... This is a true category for the subject whose main topic is homonym.
Same case as with the category "JOSM" for the page "JOSM" (but not only this one as it has several realted pages).
A very common convention is to name the category the same as the main article for the topic. — Verdy_p (talk) 01:08, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Can you explain how it will help someone reading the page? --SomeoneElse (talk) 07:16, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Categories are not meant for reading the page, they are for collecting pages that are related to the same topic, and finding them while navigating in them.
Look at the category itself, you'll understand why it is like this, OK there's not a lot of pages, but a few ones were created and the category was already named in them (exemple "Level0 users", where some people used the associated tempalte in their userbox that categorized them in that users category now linked also to "Level0").
You need to understand what are categories in wikis~: they are not just indexing keywords (wikis don't need indexing keywords)... — Verdy_p (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
No-one said anything about "indexing keywords". To take an example from a different wiki, the wikipedia page is a disambiguation page, and naturally is in the category "Disambiguation pages". This makes total sense to me. Having in a category "Category" would make no sense at all. --SomeoneElse (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
You have bad understanding of categories: categories are inclusive collections that should contain all pages or subcategories related to the same topic. There's a topic "Level0" that MUST include its main article but also its related pages or subpages. And then the Level0 category has its own parent categories as a software and we don't need to include those parent categories in pages. Categories create a hoerarchic tree (with some shared branches).
Also you took a bad example on EN.WP: categories are not really meant for disambiguation, unless their name is related in fact to two different topics. In that case they should not include any page but should only have a description page containing disambiguation links: categories in pages must be focused by unambiguous topics, disambiguation categories are only used to indicate that its listed pages should be recategorized to more focused categories, and should remain empty. Exemple on this wiki: categories that are named only with an unqualified city name that exist in several places should be requalified with a country or region, and the simple category name will become a disambiguation page with no article listed: the articles should be be mixed in the same category. — Verdy_p (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
You broke it again ! Visibly ytou absolutely never care about checking compatibility. I even had to update the docs that you are negicting compeltely (andf not reading either).
Your constants bllind reverts are cleartly abusive. And in fact you have NEVER discussed the fact that you changed the parameters of these templates. You just care about one tempalte and nothing else, and never check anything else.
I much more care about the state of the server than what you do. Evn this template was maintained by me for years before the javascript-based solution was proposed by you (even though it has also caveats). I accepted this solution like others, but I've repeatedly corrected your errors you want to ignore. You never care in fact. I am much more respectful.
Note: hose are not just whitespaces to please you, they have a meaning, but your indendation is incoherent and does not even matches the embedding level. and really unneeded.
If you think about maintainabiility, excess of unnecessary code is not helpful to anyone. And your decision to apply a massive change tro the base tempalte, using your own code was not approved by anyone except you.
I accepted your decision but reapplied the standard style which is maintainable, and is really correct.
You have also mismatched braces ! Really you don't understand anything on how wiki works. Your behavior is clearly abusive if the only thing you accept is only what you write yourself and never accept anything that others are explaining to you — Verdy_p (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The "differences" are here completely not relevant, you made a massive edit by replacing completely the former code by your code, by deciding it yourself without notice.
The code was not reordered at all, but your code reincluded errors that were corrected and signaled to you since long (e.g. breaking many Japanese pages, adding wrong sort keys with extra spaces, or various letter case issues in LanguageLink, so that interlanguage links were no longer working at all). All these were signaled to you, you just refuse to see these demonstrated problems and want to add false assertions about my understanding of how MediaWiki works. Additionally you've changed parameter numbering and broke various pages, notably for a named "ns=" parameter that was intentionally optional and that you made mandatory without reason). — Verdy_p (talk) 19:49, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

SOTM Categories

I noticed your category gardening edits for a similar reason, so I think the topic fits. My issue is that, in practice, removing elements from supercategory changes the content of that category page and can make it less useful for human readers. That's why I'm a bit uncomfortable with removing the State of the Map from the Conferences category, for example. So do you think there is a place for "redundant" categories in the OSM wiki? --Tordanik 18:43, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I have not removed State of the Map from the category of conferences. I've just sorted it because I was personally asked' by several users to help for this: it is now correctly sorted by year or by region and not mixing everything: we can focus better on the recent or next topics, the older years are now archived but still easily accessible, and each regional conference is also linked now as well in the relevant category for their goegraphic region. I have also added the parent categroies for the city where they occur.
In which precise category are you seeing that a SOTM conference is missing now and that was not already absent before this change ??? I can't see any one. Give examples, but this can be easily fixed. — Verdy_p (talk) 18:57, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
And I don't see how what I did made the categories less useful, it is largely better organized now, with evident sorting: it is much easier to locate an item now than what was there before.
May be you want some redundance only for the most current or next conference, but these are linked directly from various places including from the main page of the site.
But I'm not responsible if there were many pages left without any uncategory before: these pages were already in dead ends. I've found a few of them and added the minimum categories that should have been there since the beginning. I've probably forgotten others, but this is fixable if we know where they are. — Verdy_p (talk) 19:03, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Feature Template

Thanks for your change to the feature Template, Verdy. I'm new to the template system so I'm not (yet) aware of all (im)possibilities. You also mentioned the parameters I added are undocumented. Could you let me know where I can document them? Thanks! ---- Math1985 (talk) 19:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

If you're new to wiki editing, I suggest you not to edit these widely used templates. You made various unsuccessfull "tests" but this is not a good thing to do when they are used on lot of important pages of this wiki.
You should already know how to document the template, this is no differnt than on other wikis, whereyou edit the documentation subpage. You have reallyt no excuse here because the link to edit the doc is diredtly visible on the template page ! — Verdy_p (talk) 06:04, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
In fact you've changed the new parameter (for the redering image) from normal wiki syntax (allowing multiple images to be inserted if needed for variants), into a single link. I don't think it is a good idea. Additionally, images have multiple parameters that are easier to set there, not just the size, but also its description text. Things were in fact simpler by not enforcing the syntax to a single link, notably for this optional paameter that will likely never be parsed by other tools, only rendered on the page.
Also you renamed it to use "osmcarto", however I don't see any reason on this wiki to give preference to a single rendering, when the OSM site itself uses multiple renderings. What it actually shows is only a suggestion, but it is probably much better in this template to use only descriptive photos. There are various rendering options different for nodes, for lines, or for surfaces, and it's often hard to isolate one. Each rendering will choose an appropriate icon/color/stroke style to match its coherent sets of renderings for various features, and there's never any requirement to render anything on any map). The rendering will also frequently vary according to zoom level.
As it is not possible in this box to show all possible alternate renderings, I've documented it to allow it to use a link to a wiki page, and not necessarily a "File:xxx.png" (equivalent to "Image:xxx.png"), or an "#Anchor" to a section of the page showing some examples of usage. OSM data is also not limited to rendering: they are used also in searches, and Nominatim frequently uses different icons in its result sets. There are also different icons in editors or in their "preset" menus.
I know that you have launched a discussion proposing it on an OSM mailing list. These will probably be changed, but for now I've documented only what is there. As discussions are ongoing, you should not use it on many description pages on this wiki (for experimental parameters I also suggest adding a tracking category for this parameter when it is set, so that we can easily fing and update where it is used). Probably I should add the fact that this parameter is still experimental. — Verdy_p (talk) 11:39, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Category:pages unavailable in Czech and friends

I know that the "category:pages unavailable in Czech" consisting of pages not written in Czech wasn’t asked for and you invented it when you boke the completely different "category:Czech documentation" As I know that, why should I take your unsupported word for any similar category?--Andrew (talk) 22:02, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Actually you requested it, and even battled for it. Don't you remember ? — Verdy_p (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Category:State of the Map 2015

Why create a category for a something that didn’t happen?--Andrew (talk) 07:41, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

It does not matter, it is just for categorizing existing things and cleanup the parent category. I had messages asking me to do that. — Verdy_p (talk) 09:17, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Note the 2017 edition has also not occured, but has already its category and pages. how it will happen will be specified later, but thre are still things to sort. — Verdy_p (talk) 09:20, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Changes in templates

Hi. About your changes in "Category:User ast-N" I see you wrote "User adt-N" in the template, but I guess that's a typo and should be "User ast-N". I'm changing it now but, just in case, I tell you.

Regards. --Xuacu (talk) 22:13, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I had immediately corrected it, even before you wrote here. yes it was a typo. — Verdy_p (talk) 22:36, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

LINES 3-3B-116-119-125 and 332.

REQUIRES WARNING! Dear Verdy p, on the next page: remove:

  • Relazione Bus 3B (2372896)
  • Relazione Bus 116 (2208096)
  • Relazione Bus 119 (2208101)
  • Relazione Bus 125 (2208105) and
  • Relazione Bus 332 (2208153)

as it suppressed by time.

I have not managed these members at all. Do it yourself ! — Verdy_p (talk) 14:53, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Also on the following page: not Membri

  • Relazione 3 (Valle Giulia) (1965412)
  • Relazione 3 (Piazzale Ostiense) (1380980)

but Membri

  • Relazione 3 (Valle Giulia) (1965412)
  • Relazione 3 (Staz. Trastevere) (1380980)

THANK YOU FOR THE ATTENTION shown me! -- UNTERNOALLOTTO 14:51, 27 October 2016 (UTC).

 ??? These are identical relations !!! — Verdy_p (talk) 14:53, 27 October 2016 (UTC)