Humanitarian OSM Team/Working groups/Activation/meeting 2014-06-10

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Meeting on Tue Jun 10th 2014 to discuss HOT activation. Lasted 2.5 hours.

A specific Hackpad was created and fed during the previous weeks and used during the meeting to go through its main topics.

Topics

Activation steps from beginning to end still need to be defined and better named. Also depend on hot resources for each of them. Regular quick meet-ups would help. Following UN criteria could also be done.

Monitoring crisis states: coordination meeting/meet up and go through on-going crisis to make sure all are addressed according to our resources.

Documentation/procedures about the Activations: needs to merge and complete what has been made so far so that these procedures allow newcomers and partners to understand Activations better and best practices to be share among Activators. rbanick, nico_osm, mkl, FTA would help. From Activation experience, should also involved how to communicate with other groups and define methodology for assessments.

Internal review is a key, wished for a long time but not done so far. Main activators will start to discuss (maybe in small groups to make this fluid and easy to schedule), exchange their practices and reflect the outcomes into the procedures and Activation wikipage template (currently too long, could be divided into sub-pages). Post-disaster review with hum partners like ARC, MSF, CartONG should also be done. Once our procedures+internal review are set, we could ask for an external, formal review.

External communication during crisis seems to need discussion about who speaks.

Regarding coordination during activations, to facilitate tracking/tasking/hand over/involvement of newcomers, Trello will be tested for the CAR Activation and rbanick will provide support to set it up with Amadou. Here is a link to see hat it looks like. There is also a smartphone app.

Regarding Activations' beneficiaries, consensus to discuss deeper with our contacts (MSF, CartONG, MapAction, UN orgs, etc.) to fit their needs at best (data, services). HOT Exports UI is being improved but nothing planned regarding its capacities (eg thematic layers). The HOT Imagery Request Coordination dev service is being tested.

Validation that is one of the important topic in the hackpad has not been discussed. Would have been good to let a slot to make TM contributors that were present in the meeting (FTA, michael63) to give their opinion and feedback. Should be scheduled for next time. michael63 added thoughts in the hackpad regarding QA.

Action points

  • Set specific meetings for the main points:
    • review meeting
    • coordination tool (Trello) meeting
    • coordination meetings for current activations
    • documentation/procedures meetings
  • Defining TORs for the Activation Working Group (document stating the goals and topics addressed within the AWG) was one of the goals but could not be done. Though it will be drafted/shared/discussed/modified before the next AWG meeting.
  • Next AWG should occur monthly every 2nd Tuesday. Next one will on July 8, 2PM UTC.

IRC log

[14:02:29] <sev_hotosm> Hi
[14:03:40] <michael63> Hello from Germany as well, this is Michael
[14:03:45] <sev_hotosm> Time for the Activation Working Group Kick-Off Meeting to start
[14:03:53] <sev_hotosm> Hello michael63
[14:05:03] <sev_hotosm> Who is there?
[14:05:09] PovAddict
[~nicolas@200.127.94.49] vient de partir de #hot : Konversation terminated!
[14:05:15] <pierzen> Hello from Montreal
[14:05:33] alexbarth
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[14:05:37] Amadou
[~c5ef4222@shenron.openstreetmap.org] a rejoint #hot
[14:05:45] <rbanick> Im here
[14:05:47] <sev_hotosm> Hello from Ouagadougou
[14:06:21] <FTA> Greetings from the US
[14:06:29] <sev_hotosm> We have this ongoing hackpad: https://hackpad.com/HOT-Activation-Working-Group-TlksNOhVdir
[14:07:00] <mkl> Hi I am here
[14:08:16] skorasaurus2
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[14:08:32] skorasaurus2
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[14:09:31] bazo
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[14:09:44] <Amadou> Hi here i'm
[14:09:53] russdeffner
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[14:10:23] <bazo> hi all
[14:10:48] <mkl> cool. when do we start?
[14:11:04] <sev_hotosm> I think we can
[14:11:11] nico_osm
[~osm@197.239.66.43] a rejoint #hot
[14:11:16] <sev_hotosm> Everyone had a llok on the hackpad?
[14:11:33] <russdeffner> can you post link?
[14:11:45] <mkl> https://hackpad.com/HOT-Activation-Working-Group-TlksNOhVdir
[14:11:55] <sev_hotosm> I did
[14:12:19] <russdeffner> thanks, just logged-in, may have missed that
[14:12:19] <mkl> i looked through a few times and made a bunch of comments
[14:12:20] <sev_hotosm> so we have various topics
[14:12:28] cquest_
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[14:12:39] <sev_hotosm> and we are also supposed to define some tors for this WG
[14:13:32] <mkl> seems liek a good place to start, is to just lay out the goals, and major topics we wish to address, in the working group
[14:13:37] <michael63> what do you mean by "tors"
[14:13:59] <sev_hotosm> TORs or Terms of References
[14:14:39] <mkl> Terms of Reference (each WG will only have one)
[14:14:58] <mkl> WG == Working Group :)
[14:15:02] <sev_hotosm> just to define waht this group will be about, but IMHO as any group this can be flexible and modified if we feel we missed something
[14:15:32] <mkl> that's true. but we should set a clear starting point, with some achievable objectives
[14:15:39] <sev_hotosm> idea is to clarify what is related to such WG among all of them?
[14:16:06] <nico_osm> as per the deliverables, we have been delivering over the past years, did not we ?
[14:16:38] <mkl> who are we? and what are our needs?
[14:16:46] <nico_osm> so it's more a question of defining articulation with other groups and help the actions of thie WG to gain additional impact
[14:16:53] <mkl> not really
[14:16:59] <nico_osm> mkl : u shall be in a position to say so
[14:17:21] <nico_osm> had not u speak to media people about each successful HOT activations in the past years
[14:17:23] <mkl> yes. there's quite a few things the activation working group could address to operate even better
[14:17:40] <mkl> media should be a communications working group issue
[14:17:56] <nico_osm> so pls, let's not start with the first assumption
[14:18:12] <nico_osm> that this WG and our action lacks focus, aim and follow procedures
[14:18:19] <nico_osm> since this is just wrong
[14:18:33] skorasaurus2
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[14:18:35] <mkl> ok. is this documented somewhere clearly?
[14:18:44] skorasaurus2
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[14:18:47] <mkl> certainly there are a lot of questions and issues raised in the hackpad
[14:19:03] <mkl> certainly there have been a lot of activations, and that have gone well
[14:19:18] <pierzen> mkl: The implementation of the Coordination team has made successful progress over the last two years both in objects mapped, quality, interface with humanitarians, documentation, products services offered like OSMAnd hourly or daily updates. It is not a success you say???
[14:19:18] <mkl> no one is saying otherwise
[14:19:20] <sev_hotosm> there are different documents on Googlle and through the wiki it would be good to merge
[14:19:43] <mkl> i don't understand, who is saying there has not been great progress?
[14:20:01] <pierzen> Your response was ambiguous.
[14:20:11] <rbanick> hey guys, I don't think anyone is saying that HOT activations aren't great, successful and moving towards even greater things
[14:20:18] <mkl> yea, this is weird guys
[14:20:27] <mkl> why are you guys so defensive?
[14:20:45] <mkl> let's be constructive and look at what this activation working group needs to do in order to be even better
[14:20:46] <sev_hotosm> I would say it is important more for the people who want to join as active contributors (or medias, but not sure they want to dig into technical details) and understand the full process
[14:20:56] <mkl> +1 sev_hotosm
[14:20:58] <rbanick> I think the idea behind the TOR is just to define the WG in relation to other groups and give us some goals to work to
[14:21:10] <mkl> exactly. you all may think you have it covered, but it's a bit opaque
[14:21:29] <rbanick> and yeah, agreed with sev that defining the activation process would help for newcomers. Also for new PARTNERS.
[14:21:32] <mkl> for those who have not been as active activators
[14:22:00] <mkl> yea .. who is the "audience" for the activation working group documentation?
[14:22:08] <mkl> and what questions do we still have of ourselves?
[14:22:41] <rbanick> russ and I talked about this during the last attempt at a meeting. We thought it might be nice to break our documentation into sections for different audiences?
[14:22:47] <rbanick> this was in the context of the guinea activation wiki
[14:22:54] <sev_hotosm> the people that led activations know the workflow but newcomers have to get this experience
[14:22:58] <russdeffner> So here is the first draft template: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Activation
[14:23:11] <russdeffner> for HMP/Activation wiki
[14:23:24] <mkl> oh, can we change the name HMP please?
[14:23:28] <sev_hotosm> and merge the documentation about this would be good
[14:23:36] <mkl> it really reads badly in Enlgih
[14:23:38] <mkl> English
[14:23:56] <sev_hotosm> activations leads also have thei own practices and would be great to exchange them
[14:24:03] <rbanick> +1 sev_hotosm
[14:24:55] <sev_hotosm> and define some standards (wikipage, mapping processes, etc.)
[14:24:58] Amadou
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[14:25:03] rbanick
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[14:25:05] rbanick
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[14:25:13] <russdeffner> mkl: any suggestions? and you are asking to not call 'initial' response "Humanitarian Mapping Project" but something else?
[14:25:35] <rbanick> Is the idea that an HMP precedes a formal activation?
[14:25:36] <sev_hotosm> for sure it is something that need to be documented and require people working on them between each AWG
[14:25:49] <mkl> perhaps they are all activations and just levels
[14:25:52] <mkl> "Full"
[14:26:03] <nico_osm> right on mkl
[14:26:04] <mkl> "Half"
[14:26:09] <sev_hotosm> impossible to go through this in one hour, but the AWG is the right place to set some kind of sub WG
[14:26:15] <nico_osm> these are different level of actions
[14:26:20] <rbanick> I agree with sev
[14:26:28] <nico_osm> likewise
[14:26:32] skorasaurus2
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[14:26:39] skorasaurus2
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[14:26:47] <rbanick> I'm sure some smart people could come up with appropriate "levels" and recommend back to the WG
[14:27:02] <rbanick> smart people from a sub-WG that is
[14:27:05] <russdeffner> The last Activation WG basically made the suggestion that anyone could create an HMP, but HOT would have some sort of process to 'activate'
[14:27:18] <sev_hotosm> Ah seems tricky to get a good name for the phase before Activation  :)
[14:27:27] <sev_hotosm> we have beeb trying for a long time
[14:27:52] <mkl> agreed. just something to note right now
[14:28:05] Amadou
[~c5ef422e@shenron.openstreetmap.org] a rejoint #hot
[14:28:26] <sev_hotosm> Pre-Activation was not satisfying as well
[14:28:58] <michael63> what about humanitarian mapping initiative, sounds less formal than project
[14:29:27] <nico_osm> I think the bulk of it is more about monitoring a situation that can worsen
[14:29:57] <nico_osm> and take prep actions to allow a quick scale up / community mobilization & awareness of our partners
[14:30:25] <nico_osm> may be monitoring is one word of the name of that phase of work
[14:30:34] <sev_hotosm> I remember the fires in Chile
[14:30:43] <sev_hotosm> actually the local community ativated the global one
[14:30:44] <nico_osm> but we would make more progresses by laying out the activities expected at that stage
[14:31:07] <sev_hotosm> people from HOT gave a bit of support but we did not lead this "Activation"
[14:31:13] <mkl> right, there are also these activations that are quite local, like flooding resposne, that will never get bigger ... but still good to raise some level of awareness on
[14:31:13] <sev_hotosm> so how to name it?
[14:31:28] <nico_osm> it's also a question of hot resources engaged in that phasis of work also
[14:31:33] skorasaurus2
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[14:31:34] skors
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[14:31:44] <mkl> yes nico_osm, actually aligning these levels with activities and resources is key
[14:31:51] <mkl> what we call it, well we can figure that out in time
[14:32:19] <nico_osm> I would in a first time, leave aside the workflow through which an activation is declared
[14:32:50] <sev_hotosm> More and more TM jobs are informed regarding who activated and how the crisis is severe
[14:32:57] <nico_osm> since the Chili and other many examples show, that the hot community can be at the origin of declaring hot activation by their activities
[14:33:04] <sev_hotosm> and TMv2 will filter this I think
[14:33:10] <mkl> nico_osm: "I would in a first time..." can you restate that, i couldn't quite understand your meaning
[14:33:48] <sev_hotosm> we plan to monitor more about crisis arising and may decide to stuck to officila crisis level as the UN standards
[14:33:54] <nico_osm> I would first lay out for phases and levels of activations the level of hot resources and activities expected
[14:34:02] <mkl> yes .. and TMv2 has potential to make it easier to add that key info, by providing set fields to fill out
[14:34:34] <sev_hotosm> monitoring as other tasks like this are keys but less thrilling for the OSM community
[14:34:36] <nico_osm> then we can figure out better workflows around activation 'declarationś
[14:35:16] <sev_hotosm> though we are quite reactive to many crisis, much more than other Virtual Technical Communities
[14:35:35] <nico_osm> I agree with Sev on following up UN criteria, as well as key partners-
[14:35:46] <sev_hotosm> and also act to preparedness or development programs that request us
[14:35:49] <mkl> I think this also connects to ... knowing when not to react. and knowing when to stop activating
[14:36:01] alexbarth
[~alexbarth@50-198-132-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] a rejoint #hot
[14:36:03] <nico_osm> true
[14:36:23] <pierzen> HMP vs Activation, we also have to consider operational aspects, if any use of the data by the humanitarians on the ground.
[14:36:46] <nico_osm> There is a need for regular coordination quick meet-ups to ensure we are responding to the many crisis
[14:36:47] <mkl> yes, that may be the ultimate threshhold
[14:37:05] <nico_osm> right now, it's unclear on SouthSudn and Syria who/how we work
[14:37:13] <sev_hotosm> I think a key would be to set a agenda with people volunteering for such or such activities defined by the AWG so that we are sure everything is filled, and everybody can go on vacations without being monitoring
[14:37:21] cquest_
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[14:37:25] <nico_osm> yep
[14:37:33] <mkl> Yea, Syria has never really congealed, has it
[14:37:45] <mkl> +1 on definining roles
[14:37:53] <mkl> then the key thing during activations, is hand over
[14:38:02] <mkl> how can someone step in, and get up to speed quickly
[14:38:23] <mkl> i talked to rbanick about this, and at red cross they use trello during emergencies
[14:38:50] <sev_hotosm> it requires a few hours yes, from my experience with Amadou joining me in the CAR Activation
[14:38:50] <pierzen> trello?
[14:38:51] <mkl> that, or another tool, could be given a try, to keep tabs on priorities and actions in a fast moving environment
[14:38:52] <nico_osm> we also need some form of workplan : planned crisis/prep work over time, so that anyone knows where to direct nergy
[14:39:17] <mkl> nico_osm: can you elaborate?
[14:39:28] <mkl> pierzen: https://trello.com/
[14:39:42] <mkl> i haven't used it that much, just something to consider
[14:39:44] <nico_osm> I'd be looking at activations like a workload ahead of us
[14:40:01] <nico_osm> we know what are the core crisis that require work on our end
[14:40:05] <nico_osm> this can be listed
[14:40:25] <nico_osm> and regular follow-up activities carried out around them
[14:40:43] <nico_osm> making sure none is forgotten by us, like Syria/South Sudan
[14:40:50] <rbanick> just jumping on, we like trello for task management. it keeps it clear who's doing what, when but there are plenty of other ways to manage that if people don't like trello so much.
[14:41:00] <nico_osm> this can form some sort of a work program over a month or more
[14:41:23] <nico_osm> Same for key preparedness work that can come to us, like with MSF/ICRC
[14:42:03] <nico_osm> On top of this foreseeable and necessary volume of work, we know that we may/will have to handle sudden onset crisis
[14:42:33] <nico_osm> The overall can help us making sure we are on top of crisis (as much as possible)
[14:42:39] <mkl> is this pretty much the same as the resources and activities an activation requires?
[14:42:40] chippy_
[~tim@2.30.103.42] a rejoint #hot
[14:42:55] <nico_osm> It draws on this
[14:43:05] <pierzen> Preparedness is an important aspect. We have done a great job working remotely for major Activations. We have coordinators that have the capacity for crisis management and adpat to the situation -> For example, Haiyan or Ebola. Where we need more to progress, is to develop relations with Humanitarian organizations, to assure they use the tools, and eventually add infos to OSM database.
[14:43:09] <nico_osm> the resources and level of activation are more about procedures
[14:43:33] <sev_hotosm> During Haiyan and Ebola in Guinea, was there a lack of coordinating tools? I feel for the people involved everyone was fully wawre of what was ongoing and the actions to achieve, it is more document these actions for external people and as a post-crisis review
[14:43:34] <nico_osm> the workplan is how we plan to use them in the context of today + 1/2 months time period
[14:43:55] <nico_osm> Trullo can help maximizing our suse of resources
[14:44:42] <nico_osm> From procedures, we can enhance learning/training/operational guides toi grow our pool of mappers/coordinators
[14:44:50] <mkl> I think there were some points of confusion in Haiyan and Guinea
[14:45:10] <mkl> Don't remember the specifics, but this gets to another point
[14:45:15] <pierzen> sev_hotosm: coordination, we should focus first on coordination with other groups for imagery, for tasks among organizations for post-disaster, etc. The tools to coordinate, this has to be thought before we develop.
[14:45:24] <mkl> Which is evaluation and learning from activations
[14:45:48] <sev_hotosm> I would say the tools with partners are progressing, eg for imagery AOIs
[14:46:00] <mkl> I think this is what pierzen is getting at, in part.
[14:46:04] <sev_hotosm> the lack is internal review
[14:46:16] <mkl> the imagery request tool is one example of a response to needs arising from activations
[14:46:32] <mkl> how can we identify and respond to arising needs in a more systematic fashion
[14:46:32] <russdeffner> nor getting 'closing' feedback from partners
[14:46:48] <sev_hotosm> crisis specifics+needs+what we provide to be sure we are responding the best as we cold
[14:46:50] <mkl> yup. and then digesting that feedback to improve our documentation and processes
[14:46:51] <sev_hotosm> could
[14:47:40] flavour
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[14:47:46] <rbanick> international NGOs do these sort of evaluations a lot. they're very helpful when done well.
[14:47:55] <sev_hotosm> so far we are committed doers doing the best they can but without reviewing we are doing
[14:48:05] alexbarth
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[14:48:19] <pierzen> In the context of crisis, we are doing our best Crisis management. But if no procedures on how to communicate between various groups, methodology for assessments, then you improvize. Many groups did assessment of Tacloban while basemaps of other regions were neglected. This needs a global view.
[14:48:32] <rbanick> ormally evaluations are done by professional, independent evaluators: perhaps we could see if we could get an evaluator on a pro bono basis to look at our work?
[14:48:44] <rbanick> +1 pierzen
[14:48:52] <sev_hotosm> could be good to collectively monitor all the current activations, to see what are their strengths and weaknesses
[14:48:58] <mkl> right, so perhaps the lesson is to come up with strategies for how to engage partners better next time
[14:49:16] <sev_hotosm> I am sure they are a lot of excellent initiatives that should be spread more between activations
[14:49:28] <sev_hotosm> and also a typology of activations and actions we could set
[14:49:52] skors
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[14:50:32] <rbanick> typology as in types of disasters? as opposed to levels of activation?
[14:50:44] <rbanick> I agree, just trying to understand exactly how to categorize things....
[14:50:45] <sev_hotosm> why not decide to review activations one by one and fill a methodology as we go along
[14:52:00] <pierzen> For basemap, the remote work methodology is quite well set. We make improvements, more validations, but generally well set. The question, where do we want to progress.
[14:52:08] <rbanick> I think an evaluation should really be done by someoen external
[14:52:25] <rbanick> a formal one at least. we of course can always reflect ourselves and try to improve things
[14:52:35] <mkl> it takes work to do this kind of evaluation. someone needs to be identified to do thi. somehow after an intense activation, everyone will be tired.
[14:52:51] <rbanick> but it's hard to be impartial and see the work we do with fresh, outside eyes
[14:53:05] <pierzen> Consultants from external, if they dont know the business, not sure this will help.
[14:53:14] <mkl> hmmm
[14:53:22] <mkl> i didn't know the business when i started HOT
[14:53:23] <sev_hotosm> Not forcefully related to types of disasters only. Typology of areas to map/precision of sources/humanitarian needs regarding data
[14:53:35] <mkl> so we should expect people who have other strengths could also learn
[14:54:29] <sev_hotosm> We can make profit of periods of time we are not invovled in a big crisis
[14:54:31] <mkl> in fact, this is a key notion of OSM. we can all contribute
[14:54:43] <mkl> sev_hotosm: like right now? :)
[14:55:00] <sev_hotosm> I mean with a huge response over a short period of time
[14:55:50] <sev_hotosm> actually CAR is a mess over months but it is along term crisis, so the stress is different from the Activation for Haiyan or Ebola
[14:56:02] <sev_hotosm> kinf of marathon vs sprint
[14:56:20] <rbanick> @pierzen we manage to do these with different kinds of Red Cross programs all the time. It's less about understanding the exact details of a given job and more about knowing how to measure quality and get the data for that.
[14:56:21] <nico_osm> +1 on sev
[14:56:26] yar
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[14:56:32] <nico_osm> it's important to get started on our own
[14:56:42] <nico_osm> while preparing for external evaluation
[14:56:48] <rbanick> @sev_hotoms good point, short-term vs. long-term crises are very different
[14:57:08] <nico_osm> in any big structures, you have an evaluation department, they do not always work through external contractors
[14:57:31] <sev_hotosm> so basically I would not have problem to take a bit of time to review other activation, but I think it would not be interested if I do it this alone, with my own experience
[14:57:40] <nico_osm> I think it's more a question of setting the expectations when talking of evaluations
[14:57:44] yar
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[14:57:56] <rbanick> @nico true, it's only the final evaluation that's usually external -- the ongoing monitoring work is internal
[14:58:10] <nico_osm> righ
[14:58:19] <rbanick> obviously we are not a big NGO and obviously we can do things our own way -- but I do think that an impartial evaluator would be helpful.
[14:58:27] <nico_osm> hence if we want to be helped, we need to get the process started
[14:58:28] <sev_hotosm> the thing is: can the activation leads take a moment to review their practises? Or would be tricky due to tiredness from largest Activations?
[14:58:28] <rbanick> just my opionion
[14:58:38] <nico_osm> and sev's way is practicable and doable
[14:58:58] <mkl> activation leads certainly should do this
[14:59:02] <sev_hotosm> I think this would be really more profitable than invovling consultatns that do not have any experience in what we do
[14:59:03] <nico_osm> Another point worht noting : we are developing remotely as well as on the ground something very specific
[14:59:14] <rbanick> missed your earlier comment on getting started, I'm in favor of starting our own while we search for a bigger external evaluation.
[14:59:26] <mkl> but also, a fresh set of eyes could help bring those reflections into a constructive set of learning
[14:59:28] <nico_osm> and it's not easy for someone of the evaluation business to bring an added value on top of us
[14:59:36] <mkl> "consultants" i do think anyone is being hired
[14:59:40] <nico_osm> Sev and I witnessed this in a couple of projects
[14:59:43] <pierzen> The key factor to progress, is to make evaluation with NGO's that we support, and find ways with them to adjust on both sides, to progress.
[14:59:50] <rbanick> mkl, you mean don't?
[14:59:57] <mkl> right don't
[15:00:01] <rbanick> @pierzen agreed
[15:00:21] <nico_osm> +1 on pierre as well
[15:00:30] <rbanick> @pierzen that's a topic I want to focus a little on actually -- how can we better manage external partnerships?
[15:00:40] <pierzen> +1
[15:00:47] <rbanick> as one of those partners for the ebola crsis and haiyan, I can say that it was really tough to track things as they evolved
[15:00:49] <sev_hotosm> I meant external review, not forcefully consultatns if means taht they would be paid
[15:00:59] <rbanick> because I would have to read pages and pages of skype to understand what had happened
[15:01:30] <rbanick> and of course I would miss things or not remember well
[15:01:31] <sev_hotosm> why not an external evaluation but I am sure we should do our own first
[15:01:33] <mkl> rbanick +1
[15:01:39] <nico_osm> May be it's a question of producing daily digests like in an IM cell of an IM/GIS strucgture
[15:01:47] <nico_osm> we were doing this in UNJLC
[15:01:50] <mkl> nico_osm +1
[15:01:55] <nico_osm> In a map action deploy
[15:01:58] <pierzen> Agree with rbanick This Activation coordination, I suggest we should review Main Room vs more technical verbose rooms.
[15:02:02] <sev_hotosm> I think we should document more our action points
[15:02:20] <nico_osm> u produce 2-days write upt to base to state w/w/w and how to be supported
[15:02:29] <sev_hotosm> daily log would also be interesting but time consuming
[15:02:41] <mkl> yea ... that's the point of trello and other coordination tools
[15:03:00] <mkl> it could be more or less automated, from the coordination as it goes
[15:03:03] <sev_hotosm> by actions points I mean goals and achievements. The wiki is the good palce for this
[15:03:09] <nico_osm> I would expect most of the coordination actions points daily to be on wiki
[15:03:17] <mkl> wiki is not a good place for this
[15:03:33] <pierzen> A log with keywords where people would know what is discussion, what is something important to look at. Any experience at RedCross with such follow-up?
[15:03:48] <pierzen> and not public, no
[15:03:54] <nico_osm> wiki is a good place to disseminate tasks from those daily logs to external mappers
[15:03:56] <mkl> why not public?
[15:04:05] <mkl> depends on the type of task
[15:04:14] bazo
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[15:04:15] <pierzen> I mean the Coordination room discussions
[15:04:27] <mkl> for instance, during haiti we coordinated areas to map on the wiki, and it wasn't a great fit
[15:04:38] <mkl> thus we came up with the requirements for the tasking manager
[15:04:46] <rbanick> @pierzen we don't usually coordinate Red Cross actions through big skype convos, if that's what you're referring to
[15:05:18] <pierzen> what is your way of coordinating among various groups?
[15:05:37] <rbanick> hah, lots of email, which is not so great. We are working on that ;-)
[15:05:51] <pierzen> Skype is free , we are poor ;)
[15:05:55] <rbanick> we're trying to use information managers more to summarize and coordinate
[15:06:05] <rbanick> much like nico suggested. I do like the idea of daily digests
[15:06:12] <mkl> so folks, one hour gone here ... can we start to move towards actions this group should take on?
[15:06:30] <mkl> if we intend to go on for some time, i need to move locations, this place is closing
[15:06:34] <wonderchook> I just wanted to step in and say we aren't that poor
[15:06:44] <wonderchook> if there are tools that would help write up a budget and we can see what we can do
[15:06:49] <nico_osm> it might be good to continue hearing from arc on ebola and haiyan
[15:06:53] <sev_hotosm> AndrewBuck, pierzen, nico_osm, mkl, MarkC and all the others invovled in activations, can we set internal reviews, maybe not together but in small groups? Maybe we could set a template that would present every activation?
[15:07:25] <nico_osm> that ś a good first action point
[15:07:30] <mkl> wonderchook: +1. we raised money for the OSMTM. we can fund other needs
[15:07:54] <mkl> that sounds good
[15:07:54] <nico_osm> Let's us money if there is a need to
[15:08:08] <mkl> what about improving our documentation?
[15:08:13] <sev_hotosm> that's done we could add for external review if we seem we need to be better
[15:08:17] <nico_osm> we have been doing good with free tools, let's learn, and spec out tools
[15:08:18] <mkl> i thought the offer for UCL students to look at this a sound one
[15:08:30] <sev_hotosm> I would say we do not need this to show we do good
[15:08:30] <mkl> osmtm was not free :)
[15:08:30] <nico_osm> if money has to be mobilized, then go for it
[15:08:49] <sev_hotosm> cause basically, what we do just thrills the humanitarian stakeholders
[15:08:49] <nico_osm> but not right now
[15:08:59] <pierzen> sev_hotosm: Yes, plus I would add as second point, post-disaster review with hum partners to evaluate, find ways to progress.
[15:09:05] <mkl> don't worry about HOT's money nico_osm
[15:09:18] <nico_osm> I do mkl
[15:09:42] <wonderchook> look if there is a tool that would help, there are plenty of SaaS solutions like Loomio or Trello that we would pay for
[15:09:45] <nico_osm> since i know how much a little money on the ground can create in terms of local community
[15:09:45] <wonderchook> or we could host them ourselves
[15:09:45] <mkl> not your strong suit ;)
[15:09:51] <wonderchook> I just stepped in
[15:09:58] <nico_osm> which is the best osm asset in any prep/crisis work
[15:10:03] <wonderchook> to point out all tools couple be used, just find the best
[15:10:14] <sev_hotosm> pierzen: yes that is another very important topic
[15:10:29] <nico_osm> I am not against not using money if we collectively come up with IT / tools needs
[15:10:44] <rbanick> @nico I'm sure that ARC and MSF could jointly submit some thoughts about how activations could be a little eaiser for us to work with
[15:10:50] <rbanick> also CarONG
[15:10:56] <mkl> rbanick: that would be awesome
[15:10:57] <nico_osm> this would be great
[15:11:10] <nico_osm> this dialogue started with cartong
[15:11:10] <sev_hotosm> to wrap up a bit what we said so far: we talked about internal activation processes and everyone agrees about the fact reviewing would be a key action
[15:11:24] <nico_osm> yes
[15:11:51] <nico_osm> and that work sessions shall be set with actively engaged hotties + anyone willing to join
[15:11:59] <nico_osm> we can doodle this
[15:12:08] <mkl> well important thing in each case
[15:12:14] <mkl> is for someone to take responsibility
[15:12:27] <mkl> and be committed to delivering back to the group at the next working gorup meeting
[15:12:55] <sev_hotosm> internal review would be great but not forcefully easy (we have been talking about this for a long time) + external would be interesting to get other points of views
[15:13:21] <sev_hotosm> Did I miss something?
[15:13:34] <mkl> documentation
[15:13:34] <sev_hotosm> I rpopose we talk now about activation and our beneficiaries
[15:13:54] cquest_
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[15:14:07] <mkl> who is leading the internal review process?
[15:14:08] <sev_hotosm> Yes documentation
[15:14:24] <sev_hotosm> as part of internal progress/review
[15:14:32] <mkl> i think it's seperate
[15:14:42] <mkl> you want to produce something, that will be informed by that
[15:15:07] <mkl> it also needs to be clear and well written
[15:15:14] <mkl> and written by a native speaker
[15:15:29] <nico_osm> a French native speaker you mean ?
[15:15:30] <sev_hotosm> we will document the activations based on our experiences so I feel it is quite related, but I think we share the same idea of what has to be documented
[15:15:47] <mkl> French native speaker if we choose to do the documentation in French
[15:15:54] <mkl> but HOT's main global language is English
[15:16:18] <mkl> sev_hotosm: yes i think we do agree on what needs to be documented
[15:16:31] <sev_hotosm> regarding leading roles, i would suggest we set an agenda among people interested to be part of it, so that we can work smoothly by 2/3 among the total to make things going forward
[15:16:55] <nico_osm> Let's be pragmatic then, the review will come with materials hooked online and english native speakers will adjuts
[15:16:58] <sev_hotosm> large audience are a pain to set, as this meeting :)
[15:17:01] alexbarth
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[15:17:10] <mkl> another main topic: coordination and logging tools during activations
[15:17:32] <pierzen> Communication to support Activations should be discussed in the Activation WG. We should look at this aspect, assure that coordinators control this, are informed when other people make outreach. And we should try to have coordinators being the first ones involved in discussions with the journalists. They are the ones that know what is important.
[15:17:45] <mkl> Totally disagree pierzen
[15:17:47] <sev_hotosm> by logging tool you mean somehting that would document actions along the activations, as trullo?
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[15:18:04] <mkl> sev_hotosm: yes something like trello. it could easily be something else
[15:18:19] <pierzen> mkl: why do you disaggree, what is your point on this?
[15:18:54] <mkl> people have different strengths
[15:19:03] <nico_osm> let's look at trello and other tools from after the review; tools will be part of the review-
[15:19:09] <mkl> and there should be a division of labor
[15:19:19] <mkl> we shouldn't pile everything into a single review process
[15:19:23] fishor
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[15:19:41] <mkl> that is creating too much unnecessary dependency
[15:19:43] <sev_hotosm> mkl I dont know trullo at all, what kind of extras it brings to the OSM wiki?
[15:20:14] <mkl> trello with an "e"
[15:20:16] <wonderchook> sev_hotosm: it is more like a ticketing system
[15:20:20] <sev_hotosm> kind of tool providing tickets of tasks?
[15:20:25] <sev_hotosm> OK
[15:20:26] <mkl> yup
[15:20:33] <nico_osm> I think we also need to have a coordination meeting/meet up and go through on-going crisis to make sure SouthSdn and Syria are addressesd or thought of
[15:20:43] <nico_osm> Take note of possible prep work
[15:20:43] <mkl> wiki, it's just messy to use, especially during an active time
[15:20:49] <pierzen> mkl: do you mean others can do communications without consulting the coordinators at all?
[15:21:17] <mkl> like i said before, before osmtm we used the wiki to divide up mapping areas. less than ideal
[15:21:17] <wonderchook> here is how Loomio uses it to track development of their platform: l3tsm4peverything!
[15:21:21] <wonderchook> oops
[15:21:24] <wonderchook> sorry about that
[15:21:24] <sev_hotosm> I think this would be great, it related more the topic of our OSM contributors, how to make them more active by proposing different kind of tasks, not all realted to the TM
[15:21:27] <nico_osm> And try to make our way through disasters and prep work rather then reacting
[15:21:34] <mkl> nico_osm: yup on Syria and South Sudan
[15:21:49] <nico_osm> that's also an easy action point
[15:21:54] <mkl> pierzen: i don't mean that at all. of course if someone speaks to the media, they should be informed
[15:22:15] <wonderchook> https://trello.com/b/tM6QGCLH/loomio-roadmap
[15:22:20] <wonderchook> that is the trello stuff
[15:22:21] <nico_osm> I think that the point made by Pierre is strong and goes beyond
[15:22:23] <mkl> but it doesn't mean the people leading the activations must speak to journalists
[15:22:40] <mkl> anyway, this is out of scope for the working group
[15:22:43] <sev_hotosm> OK so we have people interested to discuss/review activations (pierzen at least raised his hand, I add mine) + strat documentation + test Trullo
[15:22:43] <nico_osm> The action of HOT in a crisis and for after the crisis has to be co-decided
[15:22:51] <nico_osm> so far it's not
[15:22:52] <mkl> there is a communication working group to discuss this
[15:22:55] <nico_osm> there's a divid
[15:23:02] <nico_osm> between the coordinators
[15:23:04] <sev_hotosm> who would like to make a first merge of our different activations document?
[15:23:09] <mkl> divide is all in your mind nico_osm
[15:23:16] <sev_hotosm> who wants to test Trullo?
[15:23:44] <nico_osm> i leave this word to your responsibility
[15:23:46] <mkl> sev_hotosm: where are the different activation documents?
[15:23:51] <rbanick> I"m happy to walk people through trello if they want to test it
[15:23:59] <rbanick> and show them what the ARC does with it
[15:24:16] <sev_hotosm> wiki + a few Gdocs made during activations + methodologies in different wikipages
[15:24:22] <nico_osm> I mean that for Haiyan, when it was possible to get HOT on the Ground with OSM PH then some of the coordinators were cut
[15:24:30] <nico_osm> from decision/plan
[15:24:39] <nico_osm> This is something that need to be looked at
[15:24:52] <mkl> right, that should be smoother
[15:25:02] <nico_osm> In the review
[15:25:15] <mkl> but let's be honest, there wasn't a good working environment between some of us back then
[15:25:33] <mkl> so let's take advantage of this current opportunity to figure out how it can be better
[15:25:36] rbanick
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[15:25:45] <nico_osm> absolutely
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[15:26:14] <mkl> sev_hotosm: i wish i could take up documentation myself but i am way too busy before the next AWG meeting (which I presume is in about a month?)
[15:26:15] <sev_hotosm> hands to work on documentation and Trullo?
[15:26:31] <mkl> i would say, i would like to see if the UCL students could have a go
[15:26:42] <nico_osm> It would be good to have this exposure to trello and how it is used in ARC
[15:26:57] <sev_hotosm> sorry: Trello!
[15:27:10] <nico_osm> and compare with existing docs, we can also look at how DHN use Loomio or other pieces
[15:27:31] <mkl> ah, rbanick is gone. he was talking with UCL. can i bring the documentation piece to discuss with him further?
[15:27:35] <pierzen> mkl: Coordination went well for Haiyan. But there is the problem of the connection with the executive stepping in, taking actions and not informing the Activations coordinators.
[15:27:46] <nico_osm> I am in for documentation
[15:28:08] <sev_hotosm> Hmm I would rather make a first doc that is understandable by people without any experience of humanitarian work or OSM activations
[15:28:17] <FTA> if it's a matter of compiling information from multiple sources, i am happy to help with that mechanical work
[15:28:19] <nico_osm> +1
[15:28:30] <mkl> pierzen: yea, well i don't think there were good relations between yourself and others back then
[15:28:31] <mkl> glad this is changing
[15:28:38] rbanick
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[15:28:45] <nico_osm> I am doubtful about any course named saving the world in 2 weeks
[15:28:59] <mkl> didn't we save haiti in two weeks?
[15:29:03] <nico_osm> I think that HOT shall ban from this kind of communication
[15:29:08] <sev_hotosm> eg if I get technical documents from a domain I do not know, I dont feel I would be able to release soemting consistent to specialists
[15:29:23] <nico_osm> this just alienate us from most of the serious field people
[15:29:27] <nico_osm> and they are many
[15:29:35] <sev_hotosm> mkl Hmm No I think we just helped a bit :)
[15:29:42] <mkl> I doubt that working with some students would alienate anyone
[15:29:48] <nico_osm> this is for me and our operations an issue
[15:29:54] <nico_osm> that we have to mitigate
[15:29:58] <nico_osm> not helpful
[15:29:59] <mkl> yes, your issure nico_osm
[15:30:02] <rbanick> working with students?
[15:30:09] <mkl> yea, students can be great
[15:30:18] <nico_osm> no not working with students
[15:30:23] <mkl> i think nico_osm doesn't like the name of the course
[15:30:26] <mkl> and is overreacting to it
[15:30:30] <pierzen> Mkl I do not accept your way of alway have accusations to others. There were good relations with others back then. If you refer to discussions on the board, this is something completely different from the Activations. Could you try to have a more respectful tone of discussion with collaborators,to not be constantly agressive.
[15:30:34] <rbanick> I'm the one who originally proposed the UCL thing so I'll speak to it -- my thought was that they could focus on one or two very specific things and help us document them
[15:30:35] <nico_osm> I have been working with studients over the past 4 years
[15:30:39] <nico_osm> and we can do amazing things
[15:30:46] <nico_osm> they need to be guided/mentored
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[15:30:56] <mkl> i'm not being aggressive pierzen, just honest. trying to suggest why you may have felt sidelined
[15:30:58] <rbanick> I oriignally suggested validations back in January when it seemed that that was a poorly understood element of our workflows
[15:31:12] <nico_osm> I will bring the concern about the title of the course to the communication working group
[15:31:28] <mkl> anyway, water under the bridge. we can move on and do better in the future. i think it's a valid concern
[15:31:34] <nico_osm> and the style of communication that goes with it and that we need to avoid
[15:31:58] <pierzen> I do not feel sidelined has you say. Could you have a respectful discussion with less insinuations and accusations?
[15:32:18] <mkl> you said you were not consulted. i try to respect you, sometimes ;)
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[15:32:28] <rbanick> @nico the name was given by an engineering professor...agreed that it could be viewed as problematic by some
[15:32:35] <mkl> ok i gotta jump off here for a minute. take a chill pill pierzen. brb
[15:32:42] <sev_hotosm> something we have to take into account is that making them think they will a huge improvement of our documentation. What are their background in engeneering? How many of them and how much will they work on this during these two weeks?
[15:32:43] <nico_osm> yes robert
[15:32:46] <nico_osm> it is
[15:32:47] <rbanick> i think we can roll with that and respectfully suggest they change it if they do things in the future
[15:32:57] <nico_osm> by all the sceptical and super experienced field guys
[15:33:08] <rbanick> with super experienced jaded field guys too
[15:33:11] <rbanick> and know how prickly they can be
[15:33:12] <sev_hotosm> The whole class will work on that or is it only one of the activities they will have to pick up
[15:33:22] <nico_osm> and its costs me time to convince and get buy in
[15:33:34] <rbanick> I am familiar with al lthe development theory that indicts frivolous approaches to development / humanitarian problems
[15:33:40] <nico_osm> I agree with you robert on us having our fans in the field
[15:33:57] <nico_osm> but really we also have other folks to manage and they are a majority
[15:34:04] <rbanick> @sev honestly I don't know if they'll work on anything for us, there are non-HOT topics before them
[15:34:17] <rbanick> and it's one week into hte course already. I imagine harry would have more persepctive
[15:34:23] <rbanick> they were allowed to choose their topics
[15:35:03] <rbanick> so this might be a moot disucssion
[15:35:06] <sev_hotosm> so, a bi‪t like in a hackathon
[15:35:13] <nico_osm> moot ?
[15:35:14] <rbanick> yeah
[15:35:33] <rbanick> moot = not really relevant since the topic of discussion possibly isn't actually happening
[15:36:02] <nico_osm> ok thanks
[15:37:26] <sev_hotosm> Who would be interested to test Trello? And how to test it?
[15:37:41] <rbanick> before we wrap up, I just want to point out that russ helpfully worked on a template for managing activations... perhaps we could try ot use this FOR NOW until we come up with better documentation? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Activation
[15:37:57] <sev_hotosm> With the support of someone who knows it, I can test it for CAR crisis
[15:38:06] <sev_hotosm> by feeding it
[15:38:20] <rbanick> I"m happy to help you with that sev, 1 on 1
[15:38:33] <nico_osm> @mkl : a certain style of communication '2 weeks to save the world' is not my issue, it's an issue for the HOT project, its community, the organization and anyone willing to do good field work in the field
[15:38:35] <rbanick> although it's probably best to test it when multiple people are using it, so maybe with another coordinator who's helping?
[15:38:48] <sev_hotosm> but would need someone to set it up
[15:38:50] <nico_osm> the issues were brought up by cartong and msf people
[15:39:14] <nico_osm> about the triumphal tone of some of HOT and media communication around the crisis
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[15:39:43] <sev_hotosm> Someone to provide the basics to Amadou who is an IT, so more techy than me to handle it
[15:39:45] <nico_osm> something to be aware of, think through and adjust at beest
[15:40:00] <sev_hotosm> ah thanks rbanick
[15:40:05] <rbanick> @sev it's really easy to set up, I can help
[15:40:09] <sev_hotosm> I had missed your comment
[15:40:15] <sev_hotosm> great
[15:40:18] <nico_osm> this would be great to have Amadou and new cnadidates with us on the test
[15:40:18] <rbanick> no need for servers or anything, we can just set up a free account
[15:40:33] <nico_osm> great
[15:40:36] mkl
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[15:40:40] <rbanick> happy to work with amadou and whoever else...sev why don't you set up a doodle?
[15:40:54] <rbanick> I'm going to be in asia for the next month so time zones might be funky, but we can figure something out
[15:40:55] <pierzen> Wiki good point to start. This is inspired by the Haiyan wiki page. This has been a work in progress with each activation. For Haiyan, we insisted on the Products and Services. We end up having long pages. We should also think if this should be divided from the main page, in various pages connected for the various subjects. something to look at, sure.
[15:40:58] <sev_hotosm> for Trello? Why not?
[15:41:08] <rbanick> I might be staying up late to watch world cup games anyways ;-)
[15:41:12] <sev_hotosm> will do the same for the Activation reviewers
[15:41:23] <sev_hotosm> I used to set a lot of Doodle recently :)
[15:41:38] <nico_osm> indeed Trello and soccers sound like an interesting program
[15:41:51] <sev_hotosm> which sport?
[15:42:03] <rbanick> @sev trello is in the cloud, we don't need servers or anything for ourselves, just free accounts and a format for how we set up "boards". i'll show you.
[15:42:29] <rbanick> football, the non-american kind
[15:42:34] <nico_osm> what about connectivity issues in hard internet places ?
[15:42:50] <sev_hotosm> ah it was a test! You did not say soccer, good!
[15:42:51] <rbanick> well, it's honeslty less bandwidth intesnive than updating hte wiki
[15:42:52] <nico_osm> did you use it in Haiti or other places ?
[15:42:55] <rbanick> haha :)
[15:43:06] <nico_osm> so this is cool
[15:43:11] <russdeffner> pierzen: the wiki is just a skeleton of the Haiyan/Ebola wikis it could definitely use more work
[15:43:24] <rbanick> it's not perfect, ultimately you need internet. and I mean, it's a taskign system, so some things maybe belond on the wiki and not on trello. we'll figure it out.
[15:43:32] <sev_hotosm> Topic about beneficiaries
[15:43:43] <nico_osm> right
[15:43:49] <sev_hotosm> (trying to follow the hackpad)
[15:43:51] <rbanick> @nico there's a trello app which makes it easier to see stuff and update without internet
[15:43:59] <nico_osm> let's also keep open atrium in minds then
[15:43:59] <pierzen> russdeffner: cool, and as i said, find ways to make it attractive to outside people.
[15:44:03] jgc
[~jgc@37.221.161.234] a rejoint #hot
[15:44:05] <rbanick> err without MUJCH internet
[15:44:08] <russdeffner> yep
[15:44:12] <nico_osm> cool for the app robert
[15:44:36] <sev_hotosm> that relates with Data as well
[15:44:42] mkl
[~mikel@197.237.67.176] a rejoint #hot
[15:44:44] <pierzen> sev_hotosm: Communication tone, yes this is something we have to be careful. It would be important to discuss this with MSF directly.
[15:45:02] <nico_osm> But in the review, let's also look at key contents : like satisfaction of our various audiences, concrete work at each step/phase of hot activity
[15:45:07] <pierzen> And know to what they refer exactly.
[15:45:13] <sev_hotosm> pierzen which MSF?
[15:45:29] <nico_osm> I think MSF_CH for Ebola
[15:45:33] <pierzen> MSF-CH for Ebola
[15:45:39] <nico_osm> but this can be extended to other MSF
[15:45:45] <pierzen> yes
[15:45:55] <nico_osm> as well as other field workers we know-
[15:45:58] <rbanick> mapaction is another key partner
[15:46:02] <nico_osm> from other orgs
[15:46:03] <mkl> how much of direct relation did we have with MSF CH?
[15:46:07] <rbanick> they use osm data a lot even if they dont colllab directly with hot
[15:46:10] <mkl> seems like we've had more direct contact with MSF UK
[15:46:15] <pierzen> this shows that we have to learn how to work together, have more discussions.
[15:46:24] <nico_osm> @mkl this was through Cartong
[15:46:29] <nico_osm> they can re-help out
[15:46:30] <sev_hotosm> nico_osm yes about satisfaction, relates also to the fact we still need to reach out more stakeholders and make them aware about the data and how it is easy for them to trigger us (for a much better response from the OSM community)
[15:46:35] <rbanick> which is kind of interesting because it shows our data is useful, but we could do a better job of communicating directly with beneficiaries
[15:46:36] <pierzen> mkl: no direct relations with msf-ch, only with cartong yes
[15:47:19] <nico_osm> @ sev: absolutely, there is still a lot of outreach to do towards actors so that Dake optimistic haiku
[15:47:20] <sev_hotosm> regarding data, a small question about dev: is the new version of HOT export still in the pipe?
[15:47:33] geohacker
[~sajjad@cretaceous.coolwrks.com] a rejoint #hot
[15:47:34] <nico_osm> GIS is a game changer and OSM the langua franca of the Humanitarian
[15:47:38] <nico_osm> get true
[15:47:49] hiromi
[~hiromi@92.57.108.4] a rejoint #hot
[15:47:58] <mkl> mapaction is a funny one. nigel was an early advisor to me when HOT was getting started. mapaction supported the first trip to haiti. they use and are always enthusiastic. but yet, they don't find the capacity to get more deeply involved
[15:48:05] <russdeffner> sev_hotosm: thanks, have to go; talk more soon... :)
[15:48:30] <nico_osm> mkl Map action mapping focuses change over time
[15:48:39] russdeffner
[~482a667e@shenron.openstreetmap.org] vient de partir de #hot
[15:48:43] <nico_osm> and they do not need so more detailed data
[15:48:44] <mkl> i think it's the nature of their model
[15:48:46] <mkl> anyway
[15:48:53] <nico_osm> look at their maps for Haiyan
[15:49:02] <nico_osm> they are still big supporters of us
[15:49:14] <nico_osm> and are interesting in data models + UAVs
[15:49:43] <nico_osm> But it's important to continue hearing well from most of the actors how they consume osm in their work
[15:49:52] <sev_hotosm> yes mapaction is interested and supportive but OSM is a dataset they use among many
[15:49:59] <mkl> i wouldn't say that exactly they don't need detailed data. anyway, point is we should communicate better with partners
[15:50:18] <nico_osm> through ARC work in support of IFRC and local CR, robert, u shall have a good spectrum of actions
[15:50:22] <mkl> well that's going to be true for any humanitarian GIS group ... they won't stick strictly to OSM
[15:50:43] <sev_hotosm> in South Sudan they did not want to have all the buildigns only keymarks to be easily orientated
[15:51:06] <pierzen> rbanick: MSF and various NGO's, even OCHA do not have a lot of people fluent with GIS tools. Progress goes slowly. Some areas, people are more used to it and ready to collaborate.
[15:51:10] <sev_hotosm> but as others they trigger us more than before
[15:51:44] <rbanick> @pierzen yep. trust me, I know. drives me crazy in every operation ;-)
[15:51:55] <sev_hotosm> pierzen true and handling raw OSM data is often a blocker for the less skilled ones
[15:52:13] <rbanick> @sev +1
[15:52:20] cquest_
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[15:52:26] <rbanick> thats why hot exports is good. and the improvements to hte overpass api
[15:52:51] <pierzen> This is why I think that the Android Navigation tools are a good way to progress with them. Then in second GIS analysis.
[15:53:00] Amadou
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[15:53:10] <sev_hotosm> HOT exports is not user friendly (2nd step) and does not provide yet thematic datasets, though it could
[15:53:17] <rbanick> true
[15:53:23] <pierzen> would be good yes
[15:53:25] <mkl> there was a great redesign proposed of hot exports
[15:53:59] <mkl> this would be something to raise with tech working group ... implement the design improvements
[15:54:19] <sev_hotosm> mkl yes is there a timeline from the MapBox guy (I think)
[15:54:35] <mkl> really? to implement?
[15:54:40] <sev_hotosm> But I think he will improve only the UI
[15:54:50] <mkl> was juen from devseed who only worked on the mockups
[15:54:51] <sev_hotosm> not the capacities?
[15:54:56] <mkl> i don't think any more was planned
[15:54:59] Amadou
[~c5ef4238@shenron.openstreetmap.org] a rejoint #hot
[15:55:09] <nico_osm> good to know
[15:55:33] <nico_osm> what about outcomes from the imagery providers gathering you organized ?
[15:55:38] <mkl> but a rails developer could implement
[15:55:46] <rbanick> jue is a lady, just fyi :)
[15:55:52] <mkl> right :)
[15:56:05] <mkl> did you see the imagery request tool drazen and his crew put together?
[15:56:11] <nico_osm> and how this can impact our approach towards imagery request in activations/prep work ?
[15:56:18] <nico_osm> I did
[15:56:46] <mkl> there's also a back channel for the friendly providers to discuss
[15:56:52] <mkl> so that's pretty much it
[15:56:56] <nico_osm> But what about how things are planned for imagery ?
[15:56:59] <mkl> until the next disaster. then we see how it goes
[15:57:04] <nico_osm> ok
[15:57:21] <mkl> i don't know if there's anything more to think about now
[15:58:02] <sev_hotosm> mkl the tool is still under dev or ready?
[15:58:16] <mkl> the imagery request tool ... i think it's ready for use
[15:58:24] <mkl> can still be developed more, but the basic idea is there
[15:58:39] <mkl> drazen would have more idea of specifically what more is priority
[15:58:47] <mkl> we should take it for a test drive
[15:58:53] <sev_hotosm> OK will test it
[15:59:49] <nico_osm> I'll be happy to be part of the test as well
[16:00:06] <mkl> it's up and available for anyone to look at
[16:00:14] <nico_osm> great
[16:00:18] <mkl> don't have the link handy, but drazen has emailed about it
[16:00:26] <FTA> i must head out, but thanks for letting me sit in...if i can be of some use, do not hesitate to let me know. regards --FTA
[16:00:29] FTA
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[16:01:01] <sev_hotosm> FTA would be happy if you or other OSM contributors would provide directly your thoughts
[16:01:32] <sev_hotosm> Maybe I should have tell it again, but anyone can participate in the chat
[16:01:47] Amadou
[~c5ef4238@shenron.openstreetmap.org] vient de partir de #hot
[16:01:48] <pierzen> yes would be great also to have feedback from developpers who contributed.
[16:01:50] <sev_hotosm> There is a topic about the OSM contributors
[16:01:51] <dodobas> http://hirc.dev.hotosm.org
[16:01:56] <sev_hotosm> (see the Hackpad)
[16:02:23] <sev_hotosm> would be happy if they provide us their feedback
[16:02:23] <pierzen> Haiyan+Ebola in particular where various services offered.
[16:02:23] <dodobas> :) some features are still missing, but it's maybe 'a week' away
[16:04:14] <sev_hotosm> @all OSM contributors we want you to be more aware and interested to participate to all the activities. Trello could help. We have also in the pipe a survey to know more about your experiences and interests
[16:05:51] <sev_hotosm> eg michael63
[16:06:10] <michael63> As a contributor I added some thoughts to the hackpad - mainly in terms of QA: make sure that validation really happens, try to set time scales for this and draw conclusions from validation which could end up in better guidelines for contributors (particularly those without much experience) so that our overall quality improves.
[16:06:15] Amadou
[~c5ef4234@shenron.openstreetmap.org] a rejoint #hot
[16:08:22] <nico_osm> thanks for this michael63
[16:08:26] <sev_hotosm> yes validation is an important topic during activation. tallguy/Nick Allen and I set some guidances and take time to review finished tasks
[16:08:50] alexbarth
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[16:09:00] <mkl> we've been at this two hours. should we wrap up?
[16:09:00] <mkl> i don't know, did we digest all the conversation into a set of actions, or even a ToR?
[16:09:09] <sev_hotosm> but they are not yet standards, need to be discussed/improved etc
[16:09:33] <sev_hotosm> Set of actions I think so
[16:10:15] <nico_osm> as well as 2 actions for
[16:10:15] <pierzen> Some specific tasks in Activation, about Validation / Better maps, classification of roads should be also revised by experienced contributors once an area completed.
[16:10:19] <nico_osm> 1 a review meeting
[16:10:28] <sev_hotosm> ToR is to define what AWG deals with right?
[16:10:30] <nico_osm> 2 a coordination tool meeting
[16:11:11] <nico_osm> 3 an activations coordination meetings
[16:11:17] <nico_osm> hence 3 doodle
[16:11:47] <AndrewBuck> Hey everyone, just got back. reading up on the scrollback.
[16:13:14] <mkl> wait, what is 3?
[16:13:14] <mkl> and shouldn't there be something about documentation?
[16:13:16] <mkl> sev_hotosm: what it deals with, what it wants to do.
[16:13:22] <sev_hotosm> Apart being a space for animated discussions, I think we have enough topics in the hackpad to get soemthing equivalent to the CWG ToRs
[16:13:25] <sev_hotosm> https://hackpad.com/HOT-TWG-Terms-of-reference-wgU5W12VGtG
[16:14:02] <mkl> good
[16:14:11] <mkl> we should be action oriented, not only talk
[16:14:39] neiljp
[~Neil@234.137.125.91.dyn.plus.net] a rejoint #hot
[16:14:58] <mkl> anyway, i would change #3 in nico_osm's list to documentation
[16:15:01] <pierzen> Hi Andrew :)
[16:15:07] <sev_hotosm> enough regarding purposes
[16:15:16] <mkl> list of next actions
[16:15:18] <sev_hotosm> what about periodicity?
[16:15:43] <rbanick> @mkl I actually disagree -- I think nico means we should have separate meetings to just discuss the ins and outs of how current activations are going. And that seems a good idea, separate from long-term development tasks.
[16:15:58] <rbanick> I would just add a #4 - documentation
[16:16:10] <sev_hotosm> we agreed on ad hoc meetings eg for reviewers, but for the AWG meeting?
[16:16:12] <mkl> oh i understand now. sure
[16:16:26] <mkl> monthly
[16:16:34] <mkl> that gives us enough time to make progress on those items
[16:16:53] <mkl> just choose the same day/time next month
[16:17:09] <mkl> 2nd Tuesday is July 8
[16:17:19] <sev_hotosm> was this time OK for everyone?
[16:17:39] <mkl> for the other actions, i suggest same time on the following tuesday(s)
[16:17:53] <mkl> rather than go through doodle again, which got complicated
[16:17:55] <sev_hotosm> for people in Asia It is quite late
[16:18:21] <rbanick> yeah...hard to avoid that
[16:18:28] <sev_hotosm> I agree Doodle is complicated
[16:18:36] <rbanick> unless we do morning western hemisphere / evening asia meetings
[16:18:59] <sev_hotosm> morning in AMerica, Afternoon in Europe and evenng in Asia could be a solution
[16:19:26] <mkl> we could oscillate or adjust time of day. i would suggest keeping the 2nd tuesday though, just to reduce the variables
[16:19:31] <sev_hotosm> what about 2PM UTC?
[16:19:41] <pierzen> we can have 10:00 EST which would be around 22:00 in Asia? yes only problem for pacific america
[16:19:43] <mkl> with enough advance notice, those of us who really want to be here can adjust our schedules
[16:19:44] <sev_hotosm> agree with the day
[16:20:24] <rbanick> 10 EST does sound good, because 7 PST is still doable
[16:20:28] <mkl> the west coast, they are early risers ;)
[16:20:39] <sev_hotosm> 10 EST = ? UTC?
[16:20:41] <rbanick> really 7 PST is not much harder than 22, except if you're commuting to work then
[16:20:42] Amadou
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[16:20:46] <rbanick> 2 UTC
[16:20:49] <rbanick> err, 14 UTC
[16:20:55] <pierzen> EST is montreal new-york washington
[16:21:02] <sev_hotosm> OK let us do that
[16:21:24] <nico_osm> back
[16:21:33] <nico_osm> thanks robert for the point
[16:21:52] <nico_osm> great being with you all on this chat
[16:22:09] <nico_osm> looking fwd 2 next meetings
[16:22:09] <sev_hotosm> for the next meeting we can start with adopting the ToRs we will draft in the meatime based on the discussion + hackpad
[16:22:16] <sev_hotosm> what do you think?
[16:22:22] <nico_osm> have to go
[16:22:25] <nico_osm> ++
[16:22:35] <mkl> sounds good sev_hotosm
[16:22:42] <mkl> you'll send around the hackpad?
[16:22:46] <sev_hotosm> yes
[16:23:21] <sev_hotosm> and next time we work on a more cleared agenda than the hackpad
[16:23:22] <sev_hotosm> ?
[16:23:27] <sev_hotosm> sorry
[16:23:29] <rbanick> +1 sev
[16:23:33] <mkl> yea, that makes sense
[16:23:33] <sev_hotosm> I mean clearer
[16:23:40] <rbanick> the hackpad is more a collection of ideas than an agenda...too long
[16:23:49] <rbanick> great for review, not for running a meeting
[16:23:59] <mkl> we have to put it all out there, in order to start to find the ways to start. i think we're on our way
[16:24:14] <mkl> sev_hotosm, thanks for chairing this meeting
[16:24:17] <rbanick> thanks to everyone for being awesome and passionate and showing up
[16:24:21] <sev_hotosm> and all those interested by particpating in review/documentation/Trello test will work on these topics
[16:24:33] <rbanick> including those who didn't talk much but were reading :)
[16:24:46] <sev_hotosm> starting this on the hot list
[16:25:13] <mkl> perfect
[16:25:24] <sev_hotosm> yes next time we add a slot for the readers to talk :)
[16:25:43] <sev_hotosm> was great to talk with all of you guys!
[16:26:53] <rbanick> absolutely! good night to those in europe / africa
[16:27:02] <rbanick> and the crazies staying up this late in asia
[16:27:20] alexbarth
[~alexbarth@50-198-132-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] a rejoint #hot
[16:27:52] <pierzen> Good day / Good night all !