ES:OSM Latam/online meeting 2018-11-13 with OSMF

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Online meeting in 2018-11-13 with OSMF representatives, at Telegram channel, https://t.me/OSMLatam

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OpenStreetMap Latam

Wille

Hola, vamos a empezar el chat entre la comunidad OSM Latam y los miembros del actual board de la OSM Foundation. El chat va a ser en inglés. Caso alguién no estea confortable en escribir en inglés, escriban en español y traducimos. Tenemos ya acá Mikel y Martijn.

Martijn van Exel

Thanks Wille

Wille

Hi. Let's start the chat between the OSM Latam community and the members of the current OSM Foundation board.

Mikel

Thanks Wille for organizing! Happy to be here to share what the OSMF is about. I think this was organized very quickly, so may be only Martijn and myself from the Board. There are 5 others on the Board with us.

Where should we start? Are there any particular topics we should discuss? What are your questions about what OSMF does?

Wille

I think we can start with Mikel and Martijn presenting themselves and talking a little bit about the role of the OSMF.

Ce Ja

Hi colleagues. I have a question from Geochicas and in general from osm LATAM. Is there a real intention to integrate people to the foundation, from South regions, with a different fee system adapted to life costs? Not based on sponsorship? I think it is the only way to have a complete participation word wide

(Question 3)

Mikel

Great question

Ce Ja

Wille

I think we can start with Mikel and Martijn presenting themselves and talking a little bit about the role of the OSMF.

Sorry, I started directly. I can't stay a long time

Mikel

But first, as Wille suggests -- I'm Mikel, been on the Board for three years this term, and also served about 10 years ago. OSM has changed a lot since then! I also work at Mapbox leading the Community team, and helped start HOT.

Selene Yangadmin

Ce Ja

Hi colleagues. I have a question from Geochicas and in general from osm LATAM. Is there a real intention to integrate people to

+1 to this inquiry

Peter Krauss

Hi Mikel and @mvexel , questions,


1. Which issues have been object of debates inside the foundation?


2. Here in Brazil there are a recent "official interest" of Municipalities, to use OSM as "the official GIS of the city" or an "complementary official reference" for map features of its jurisdiction.... There are concrete iniciatives in other countries?

Martijn van Exel

wave: I'm Martijn, Dutch guy living in USA now. Been on OSMF board for three years. My term ends with the coming elections. I work at Telenav since 2012. Organize local OSM group here in Salt Lake City Utah

Mikel

Agree the 15 GBP is not a great global way to assess membership. The reason this was originally chosen was that it seemed like a small but significant enough amount that it showed dedication to OSM and not just a passing interest.

Miriam @mapanauta

Hi Mikel + Martijn :smiley:

Mikel

But as we know, 15 GBP is more significant in different parts of the world. Even at the start, we had a "postcard" method, where if the fee was unaffordable, you could send a postcard to the OSMF to indicate your interest. This idea seems to have fallen off at some point

The cost has been discussed and recognized by folks in the OSMF. The work on this has been done within the Membership Working Group. They were not however able to come up with a systematic way to manage adjusting the fee structure.

Martijn van Exel

@ppkrauss good questions. 1) A few topics come to mind. Organized editing by groups (including but not only companies) has been a big one lately. We're looking at @mapeadora question about making membership more accessible. We're looking at a microgrant platform for people who want to do things that help build OSM and the community (you heard it here first)

Ce Ja

Mikel

Agree the 15 GBP is not a great global way to assess membership. The reason this was originally chosen was that it seemed like a

In LATAM, it is a significant amount that compete with costs as an event organization, for example, and make people think. So, there is engagement, but there is also a difficult decision

roro

Ce Ja

Hi colleagues. I have a question from Geochicas and in general from osm LATAM. Is there a real intention to integrate people to

+1. In the same direction, I wonder how a membership to OSMF can benefit the south regions or local chapters, in terms of decision making and participation in the OSM ecosystem.

Mikel

So if you all have ideas how we could adjust the fee structure in a systematic way, I'd love to hear it

@roro this is a big question

Martijn van Exel

As you know you can participate in OSM and make your voice count in many ways :smiley: OSMF membership is one of them. (joining a Working group for example another)

Ce Ja

I think that a grant system or sponsorship is not perceived as a direct way to integrate. It's a way to help, to support, not to integrate as iqual. Philosophically, it's really different

Thierry Jean

Martijn wrote: "We're looking at a microgrant platform for people who want to do things that help build OSM and the community (you heard it here first)" do you mean that this may become "pay for mapping" ?

Martijn van Exel

@thie

whoops

no specifically not for mapping

Mikel

@mapeadora what are your ideas for indicating membership? it should take more than registering for an account on osm.org.

Martijn van Exel

but for organizing events, developing tools or improving existing ones

Peter Krauss

roro

+1. In the same direction, I wonder how a membership to OSMF can benefit the south regions or local chapters, in terms of decisi

Perhaps "Federalization of the governance" is the ideal, each country have a Local OSM Community and have inpependent jurisdiction about local space, "official map features", etc.

Ce Ja

Martijn van Exel

As you know you can participate in OSM and make your voice count in many ways :smiley: OSMF membership is one of them. (joining a Work

Yes. We all here contribute in many ways, but an integration to the foundation is more... Fundamental. But complex. And the fee is a symbol of a barrier

roro

2. Can you briefly describe the working groups? What do they do and how one could integrate one of them?

Martijn van Exel

The more members OSMF has from different areas, the stronger the mandate the board has. And the more chance it has to be representative of the entire community

so your membership is important to achieve that

Mikel

@ppkrauss I agree somewhat that local chapters have a greater role to play in governance, would love to see moving in that direction. with such a big community, it only makes sense to me

Martijn van Exel

it's sort of like voting itself. it can be hard to see the importance of your own individual vote, but every vote does count and is important

Mikel

we do have official Local Chapters, and they sit on an Advisory Board, along with Corporate Members. So far, there's been some activity there, and there definitely could be more

Peter Krauss

Mikel

@ppkrauss I agree somewhat that local chapters have a greater role to play in governance, would love to see moving in that direc

So, you also see that governance need some more decentralization?

Martijn van Exel

especially since we only have ~1000 members 'representing' a community of >1 million

Mikel

@ppkrauss I wouldn't put it as "decentralization" necessarily, but that working more through local representative chapters will help make more voices heard and help the OSMF to be more responsive

Ce Ja

Mikel

@mapeadora what are your ideas for indicating membership? it should take more than registering for an account on osm.org.

Maybe a little research on life costs on LATAM, África, south Asia and a fee adapted to each continent. It's still very general but fairer. I know there are other ways to be "in". But it's a symbol. You are not in the house but at the door.

Martijn van Exel

@ce

grr!

smiley:

Mikel

I think adjusting the fee regionally is a simple idea. And I think the best way to do that is to ask communities themselves what they think is a fair amount.

Martijn van Exel

We have looked at this topic some. I remember I found some numbers by the world bank I think of relative cost of living in countries around the world. That could be used to create an adjusted membership fee

Peter Krauss

Martijn van Exel

The more members OSMF has from different areas, the stronger the mandate the board has. And the more chance it has to be represe

As 15 GBP is not good... Perhaps the "a big voluntary time" of good mappers, registered and confirmed, can be converted in $GBP for get a member right...

Martijn van Exel

@ppkrauss yea for example

Mikel

how do you measure volunteer time @ppkrauss

Miriam @mapanauta

From my point of view we are only a few people in LATAM that see the benefit of being a member of the OSMF, some people is just interested in the mapping and even with a lower fee doesn't see a real benefit of being a member of the foundation

Martijn van Exel

it needs to be somehow measurable

someone has brought up offering membership to people who have mapped at least X things

I liked that idea as well

Mikel

Good point @Mapanauta. Let me put this back to you all. What are your concerns about OSM?

Btw, a bit back someone asked about the working groups. There's a good overview here https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups and we can delve in more if you have questions on them

Ce Ja

Mikel

we do have official Local Chapters, and they sit on an Advisory Board, along with Corporate Members. So far, there's been some a

In the same way, something discussed in Milan in the local chapter group: legal needs to create a local chapter are complex: being registered as an AC requires a lot of work. And the political and financial context in latam make really unrealistic to apply though another organization. Nobody trust in nobody

Martijn van Exel

good point @mapeadora

Ce Ja

Need schemes more flexible to have a wider participation

Mikel

that is complicated @mapeadora

Ce Ja

Yes I know

Mikel

there are several Local Chapters that did find a good way to work with another organization. In Italy, Wikimedia. In Belgium, Open Knowledge Foundation.

Ce Ja

It's important that the foundation understand that there is interest from communities, but real difficulties

Mikel

there are several Local Chapters that did find a good way to work with another organization. In Italy, Wikimedia. In Belgium, Op

Yes. Here it's really difficult to apply these alliances

Martijn van Exel

yea point taken..

Juan Jose Iglesias entrou no grupo

Ce Ja

financial and political frauds are the norm in Mexico

Thierry Jean

@Martijn wrote"1)Organized editing by groups (including but not only companies) has been a big one lately." can you explain better?

Martijn van Exel

one way forward we have discussed is to have some sort of 'provisonal' status of local chapter, that would have fewer formal requirements

Peter Krauss

@mvexel and Mikel can you suggested this for votation: with a lower=0 fee the good Latam OSM mappers will be OSM members, and will be vote... as in a really democratic collective

Ce Ja

People are afraid and don't trust other people to develope actions on behalf of their organization or sign things

Mikel

agree @mapeadora but there must be some good organizations in LatAm :)

Ce Ja

Mikel

agree @mapeadora but there must be some good organizations in LatAm :)

Yes. These organizations don't trust

Mikel

The provisional status as Martijn mentioned may be a way to get started

Ce Ja

Not based on friendship or respect. There's not enough in these countries for legal cooperations

Martijn van Exel

one way forward we have discussed is to have some sort of 'provisonal' status of local chapter, that would have fewer formal req

Ok, can you give details or links?

Mikel

@ppkrauss can you say that again? what are you suggesting should be the membership requirement to join OSMF?

Martijn van Exel

@mapeadora there aren't any yet but perhaps we can work with a local community in this group to figure it out together

Ce Ja

Martijn van Exel

@mapeadora there aren't any yet but perhaps we can work with a local community in this group to figure it out together

Got it

Juan Jose Iglesias

Converting mapping time & regularity into some sort of points to access OSMF membership sounds fair to me

Mikel

I want to emphasize the point that OSMF is not cast in stone. We can work together to shape it to best address the needs of local communities.

Miriam @mapanautaadmin

Mikel

Good point @Mapanauta. Let me put this back to you all. What are your concerns about OSM?

My concern is having a platform open on receiving help of new technologies to achieve the goal of having the best open map in the world but not sure the rest of the people in Latam share my concerns

Mikel

@JJIglesias what about people who contribute to OSM in some other way than mapping?

roro

Ce Ja

Maybe a little research on life costs on LATAM, África, south Asia and a fee adapted to each continent. It's still very general

+1. A distributive fee per regions could be a solution.

Juan Jose Iglesias

Mikel I do not suggest that mapping os the only way but a Marín way

Peter Krauss

Mikel

@ppkrauss can you say that again? what are you suggesting should be the membership requirement to join OSMF?

Sorry my English, suggested that you raise the issue of the assembly/meetings, to lower or zero fee for "good mappers" (any measurable criteria that OSMF defines).

Ce Ja

Miriam @mapanauta

From my point of view we are only a few people in LATAM that see the benefit of being a member of the OSMF, some people is just

Right, so these people should be integrated some way

Mikel

I'm not sure if this is what you have in mind @Mapanauta, but there are other local communities developing great processes for building community -- some technological, and some social. I'd love to see more sharing of these approaches between communities

roro

Mikel

Btw, a bit back someone asked about the working groups. There's a good overview here https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working

Thanks! :D

Juan Jose Iglesias

Sorry my corrector: I do not suggest that mapping is the only way but a Main way to get membership

Mikel

Myself, I'm a bit hesitant to measure a "good mapper". But do think lowering the fee makes a lot of sense. What would be a reasonable fee in your countries?

Peter Krauss

Juan Jose Iglesias

Sorry my corrector: I do not suggest that mapping is the only way but a Main way to get membership

Yes, is what my ugly English try to say also :wink: A kind of meritocracy to be a member in OSMF.

Martijn van Exel

the advantage of adjusting fees is that we already have the legal framework to just implement it

if we want to introduce other membership requirements that are not :money_with_wings: based but merit based it would require a change of our Articles

Juan Jose Iglesias

I do not see the fee as the Main problem. For many in Latam payment mechanism are the problem

Martijn van Exel

sorry that sounds legalistic :) -- and it's not impossible, just saying that adapting fees is the easiest way

Miriam @mapanautaadmin

Mikel

Myself, I'm a bit hesitant to measure a "good mapper". But do think lowering the fee makes a lot of sense. What would be a reaso

The measure should not be only good mapper, also there are other activities such as communication and coordination that take as much time as Mapping during hours

Ce Ja

Ce Ja

Right, so these people should be integrated some way

Also, important to understand that people want to engage but have work, study, family and cannot necessarily give a big amount of time (thinking in bureaucratic staff needs by chapters or other requirements). And this shouldn't be a barrier. This question is also limiting women's participation.

Thinking in lighter but effective ways to be part of the foundation, the chapters, and be part of the central debates and decisions . I don't know

Juan Jose Iglesias

@Mapanauta I agree there should be multiple ways not only mapping

Peter Krauss

Martijn van Exel

the advantage of adjusting fees is that we already have the legal framework to just implement it

Fee=0,01 $GBP for "good mappers", so they get a certificated transaction to say "I am human" ...

Mikel

@mvexel where is the text about exceptions when payment mechanisms are an issue for joining? I can not find it

Martijn van Exel

@514836957 I can't find it either

Ce Ja

Juan Jose Iglesias

@Mapanauta I agree there should be multiple ways not only mapping

Definitively

Mikel

well that is a problem! searching...

Thierry Jean

I suggest who is following this chat just says "hi" to make sure we know who was on.

Carpinchosaurio Rex entrou no grupo

Carpinchosaurio Rex

hi

Sérgio @smaprs entrou no grupo

Jorge AGUIRRE

Hi!

Sérgio @smaprs

Hi

Ce Ja

(I have to go but thanks a lot for your participation here, I'll read later)

Juan Jose Iglesias

Hi JJ.Iglesias from Bolivia

Martijn van Exel

wave: @mapeadora

Mikel

found it

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-September/004217.html

Jorge AGUIRRE

Ce Ja

(I have to go but thanks a lot for your participation here, I'll read later)

good points made!

Martijn van Exel

We offer the possibility already for people to not have to pay the membership if it there are technical barriers for payment that make it impossible

Peter Krauss

Ce Ja

Definitively

Yes, I agreee and I am not a mapper (I use OSM with PostGIS and databases),

but see that mappers are the first step, we can check and understand the voluntary contribution (to OSM) of mappers, there are a lot of tools, statistics and confirmations...

Joost Schouppe

I think this is the policy we're implementing at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-September/004217.html

Martijn van Exel

oh yea see the link Mikel just posted

Oh hi @joostschouppe

Mikel

you'll actually see a lot of the discussion of the issues that have come up here too, including this idea from @joostschouppe

Joost Schouppe

Oh sorry, in a meeting and trying to follow :)

Miriam @mapanauta

(need to disconnect now, will read later) :wink:

smile_cat: Angelos Rosemary :joy_cat:

Thierry Jean

I suggest who is following this chat just says "hi" to make sure we know who was on.

Hi

Martijn van Exel

wave: @Mapanauta

elsa_pasando

Hi @mvexel and Mikel

Joost Schouppe

I can say from experience that as a working group member you do have an influence on policy. No need to be a member, direct line to the board, and no money involved. Language is the biggest barrier

elsa_pasando

Hi, I'm from Colombia. My question is. In Colombia for LATAM disposition, we have focused on having our own infrastructure (taskingmanager, umap, TMS server, staticMap, we manage the servers, and put services in Spanish as the tasking manager. How do you see this, from your perspective you find it contributing?

Sérgio @smaprs

I agree there are many ways to contribute and get involved with osm. Just think that any way it is, it should express in the end a result directly connected to osm essence, that is , a geo database, so resulting in the growth of the data, its quality, and use. There cant be use without data.

Martijn van Exel

wave: @elsa_pasando

Mikel

Thanks @joostschouppe. I really think all it would take is a couple folks joining the MWG and working out the policy. It's not for lack of interest, but lack of time that the adjustable fee structure hasn't happened already

Sérgio @smaprs

(Sorry for typos in cel and english)

Martijn van Exel

@elsa_pasando I think if a community comes together to set up tools for their country is a huge contribution to OSM. Many communities do it. It doesn't all need to be centralized

Mikel

@elsa_pasando interesting. I think that's great where it's helpful. I think it's something that microgrants could support, if needed.

Dorothea

(MWG = Membership Working Group https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Membership_Working_Group)

Martijn van Exel

In the US we have our own tile server / tasking manager etc as well

We could learn more from each other, I think that is where local chapter communication can help a lot

Mikel

it is probably harder to set these up in every country and continue to maintain them, than it should be.

Martijn van Exel

For example some countries have great systems for reaching out to new local mappers

like Belgium I think @joostschouppe

elsa_pasando

We have been working on a platform to organize ourselves as a community to be able to keep records, have traceability, have more visibility and be able to update it just by filling out forms.

Martijn van Exel

So folks. I need to go. I love the discussion. I'll stay on this channel. As I said I won't be on the board much longer but always happy to help build relations, answer questions etcetera

Joost Schouppe

https://github.com/osmbe/osm-welcome-belgium

GitHub

osmbe/osm-welcome-belgium

Website to aid in welcoming new mappers. Contribute to osmbe/osm-welcome-belgium development by creating an account on GitHub.

Martijn van Exel

wave:

Peter Krauss

Mikel

Thanks @joostschouppe. I really think all it would take is a couple folks joining the MWG and working out the policy. It's not f

So, the lack of time is also "lack of completeness of OSM in my municipality"... The OSM will be important in my life if the map of my city/municipality is complete, etc. See my question 2,


2. Here in Brazil there are a recent "official interest" of Municipalities, to use OSM as "the official GIS of the city" or an "complementary official reference" for map features of its jurisdiction.... There are concrete iniciatives in other countries?

Mikel

I need to go in a few minutes too. But same here, great topics and I'd like to help facilitate all these ideas. Please see OSMF as a place for you all. I'd say if you're passionate enough to show up to this chat, you should be a part of OSMF, and let's work together to make that easy.

Joost Schouppe

this is related to 2) @ppkrauss : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_for_Government

Jorge AGUIRRE

Thank you Mikel. I think there's a lot that can and should be done!

Peter Krauss

Thank Mikel !

elsa_pasando

Estaba escribiendo esto

Siento que como comunidad en LATAM podemos convertirnos en socios de la OSMF para abrir camino con administraciones locales y otras instancias que se vuelcan hacia OSM como una solución. Necesitamos Soporte en cuanto a fortaleza.

Mikel

@ppkrauss yes, there are many examples of cities investing in OSM in lots of ways. Rarely goes as far as making OSM the official GIS, but they work to keep OSM and city day in sync, and in some cases use OSM derived products in their work

elsa_pasando

En ingñes gracias al traductor que compartió @srta_geofeminista

I feel that as a community in LATAM we can become partners of the OSMF to make way with local administrations and other instances that turn to OSM as a solution. We need support in terms of strength.

Juan Jose Iglesias

Thanks to everybody. CHEERS from Bolivia

elsa_pasando

Siento que ese fortalecimiento lo podemos trabajar nosotros primero, y tener un "partner" para mostrar resultados.

Peter Krauss

Joost Schouppe

this is related to 2) @ppkrauss : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_for_Government

Thanks, good link. Hum... Yes, there are something (!), I see as "Getting official" and the "Bi-directional error/update detection" iniciatives. Here in Brazil the better example of "Getting official" is Jaragua do Sul that expressed Openstreetmap in Law.

Joost Schouppe

wow, that sounds interesting

please add it :)

Peter Krauss

Mikel

@ppkrauss yes, there are many examples of cities investing in OSM in lots of ways. Rarely goes as far as making OSM the official

Thanks. Well, need some explain.. The "pure OSM" is impossible to use, they need OSM snapshots (e.g. a Github backup), freezing the map and using quality-filtering as OSMcha to avoid vandalisms, etc. into the snapshot.

Thierry Jean

Last question: Pluscode, open solution proposed by Google is well accepted in the OSM community? Or other suggestions are welcome?

Joost Schouppe

@ppkrauss this is something I have talked about with local administrations too. Our "road completion project" is also somewhat related: https://2018.stateofthemap.org/2018/T097-Road_Completion_in_Belgium_-_Mapping___verifying__all__the_roads_/

2018.stateofthemap.org

Road Completion in Belgium - Mapping & verifying *all* the roads.

Join for three days of talks, discussions and workshops around the free and open map of the world.

Dorothea

Thierry Jean

Last question: Pluscode, open solution proposed by Google is well accepted in the OSM community? Or other suggestions are welcom

You might be interested in this discussion: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1807

elsa_pasando

Y las conclusiones de este espacio de Conversación con la OSMF........?

Ce Ja

Peter Krauss

So, the lack of time is also "lack of completeness of OSM in my municipality"... The OSM will be important in my life if the map

I'd love to know more about your point 2. Nothing similar in Mexico but I'm trying to boost that

Peter Krauss

Joost Schouppe

@ppkrauss this is something I have talked about with local administrations too. Our "road completion project" is also somewhat r

Thanks (!), perhaps we can organize a little working group for collectives with the same aim, as you posted there " a verified, quality checked and complete road network... in OSM in a sustainable way", in each contry/city that have interested.

Ce Ja

Joost Schouppe

this is related to 2) @ppkrauss : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_for_Government

+1:

Peter Krauss

Ce Ja

I'd love to know more about your point 2. Nothing similar in Mexico but I'm trying to boost that

Let's join with @joostschouppe and others to the same aim... What you suggest as "first step" ?

Ce Ja

Peter Krauss

Thanks (!), perhaps we can organize a little working group for collectives with the same aim, as you posted there " a verified,

Yes. At this moment I don't know I'd need to be inspired by other experiences in South's.

Wille

Thanks Mikel and @mvexel !