Proposal:Require proposal announcements to be made on the new forum instead of the mailing list: Difference between revisions

*: {{ping|Marc marc}} The recommended place for discussion stays the Talk page on wiki. I don't force people to participate in discussions on the new forum. I only change where announcements are made. I have shown that there are enough ways to subscribe to announcements on the new forum (also get notifications via email). People can then discuss the proposal on the talk page if they don't like discussing on the new forum --[[User:Cartographer10|Cartographer10]] ([[User talk:Cartographer10|talk]]) 17:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

*:: '''your''' recommended place for discussion stays the Talk page on wiki, saying that it is a generalization doesn't change the reality that tagging is widely used (the wiki surely works very well for slow and simple discussions, where everyone has time to read the notification before the next message, it doesn't work for fast discussions (you don't get a 2nd notification if you don't mark the 1st as read in the wiki, so you also don't get the 2nd content by email), nor for complex discussions (trying to quote a piece of message to reply to it, it's not convenient in the wiki)

{{vote|yes}} --[[User:Kjon|Kjon]] ([[User talk:Kjon|talk]]) 17:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|yes}} --[[User:Grass-snake|Grass-snake]] ([[User talk:Grass-snake|talk]]) 17:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|yes}} I appreciate not having to expose my email address, and email threads are poorly suited for multi-person discussions. --[[User:Bgo eiu|Bgo eiu]] ([[User talk:Bgo eiu|talk]]) 17:44, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|yes}} -[[User:BubbaJuice|BubbaJuice]] ([[User talk:BubbaJuice|talk]]) 18:24, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|no}} Same reasons as [[User:Dieterdreist|Dieterdreist]], [[User:Something B|Something B]] and [[User:Marc marc|Marc marc]]. Most importantly, there should be a transition period where proposals have to be announced in both channels. If this doesn't happen, then the proposal does exactly what it wants to avoid: Exclude people. --[[User:Martianfreeloader|Martianfreeloader]] ([[User talk:Martianfreeloader|talk]]) 19:04, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|yes}} This makes the proposal process accessible to a wider part of the community. But for a while, there should be a strong recommendation to include the tagging mailing list as in the past (because otherwise a part of the community that has participated so far would surely be out of reach). Maybe automated messages to the TML are also possible once a new RFC or voting has been started in the forum.--[[User:Supaplex030|Supaplex030]] ([[User talk:Supaplex030|talk]]) 21:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|no}} In short, I'm voting against deprecating the mailing list, the "instead". I'm very strongly against closed platforms (walled gardens) such as Discourse. It's happened in the past, it's happening now in OSM, and unfortunately I can easily see it happen again in the future: communities moving to it from the "arcane/old-fashioned/obsolete/etc mailing lists" simply because it's more hip, "easier to use"/"more accessible"; and said communities end up dying out because the people most invested in them are against this pointless hip (the grossest example is probably Erlang). Regarding ease of use, it's highly subjective -- I personally loathe heavy and slow "modern" web pages; I feel like I'm wasting valuable time trying to navigate these oh-so-easy-to-use platforms, having to infinitely click here and there... I have enough wrist problems already, thank you very much. And regarding "accessibility": ever tried using any "modern" web site (Discourse included) on an old/underpowered computer/phone in your day-to-day? I can '''access, read, and write''' all of my email on my Raspberry Pi 2 if needed; can't say the same about Discourse. We see this trend time and time again, and I'm absolutely certain that I'm not the only one of this opinion: accessibility is a very different thing from ease of use. There are people who can't easily access OSM facilities (even the popular OSM Weekly, a simple HTML page) due to slow/intermittent internet connection, but the rest of the community doesn't seem much to care. Finally, as for the "mailing list" feature that Discourse likes to advertise, please stop talking about it already, we know about it, it's merely a toy bone to stop old dogs from barking too loud... And old I'm not even, sheesh! --[[User:O-andras|O-andras]] ([[User talk:O-andras|talk]]) 23:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|yes}} --[[User:Jmarchon|Jmarchon]] ([[User talk:Jmarchon|talk]]) 00:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|yes}} [[User:Rtnf|Rtnf]] ([[User talk:Rtnf|talk]]) 06:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|no}} I think it is too early. People have to warm to the new forum first. I can see that once this has happened there might be a natural tendency for some things to move to the new forum and then we can think about changing the rules. But for now, things work well enough. Frankly, I don't share the rationale above - someone who proposes a new tag will already have to set up the wiki page and read up on the process, will one extra small thing really discourage them? They don't even have to sign up to the mailing list, they can just ask someone else to post the announcement there. I don't see the need to rush this and I also sense some disrespect towards the mailing list community in the proposal, as if one wanted to make the mailing list obsolete as quickly as possible. --[[User:Woodpeck|Woodpeck]] ([[User talk:Woodpeck|talk]]) 09:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|abstain}} Personally, I won't sign up for the forum, because I simple don't want to sign up for another platform for OSM; I'm content enough with the mailing list. [[User:B-unicycling|B-unicycling]] ([[User talk:B-unicycling|talk]]) 09:57, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|no}} ([[File:Symbol support vote.svg|14px]] for adding an announcement RFC (Request For Comments) thread to the new forum (Discourse) & [[File:Symbol oppose vote.svg|14px]] for removing the current required announcement RFC (Request For Comments) to the mailing list.) --[[User:MalgiK|MalgiK]] ([[User talk:MalgiK|talk]]) 10:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|no}} Way too premature (we weren't even able to completely remove old forums!). Maybe if it was proposed to announce on ''both'' mailing list ''and'' forum it might be more palatable for some, but that simply means double the work for everyone. Better to wait when (if?) the Discourse and ML get merged, so users can access the same content via whatever interface they prefer (of which I find ML infinitely faster and easier and more versatile to work with than clunky web UI with no advanced functionalities) - as that would make a whole issue disappear by itself --[[User:Mnalis|mnalis]] ([[User talk:Mnalis|talk]]) 10:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|no}} premature --[[User:Polarbear w|Polarbear w]] ([[User talk:Polarbear w|talk]]) 10:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

{{vote|abstain}} It’s a bit too early for a hard switch, but using both side by side seems sensible for now. [[User:Diacritic|Diacritic]] ([[User talk:Diacritic|talk]]) 11:36, 10 October 2022 (UTC)