Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/26 October 2015

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  1. hot: Training WG 2015-10-26

Meeting started by SteveBower at 19:11:11 UTC. The full logs are available at .

Meeting summary

The HOT Training Working Group met on the scheduled date of Monday, 26 October, 2015, but beginning at an altered time of 1900 UTC. Participants are listed below. The meeting was interrupted from 19:36 to 19:46 UTC to respond to a query about potential activation for the Pakistan-Afghanistan earthquake. Steve Bower chaired the meeting for the approval of agenda and past meeting minutes. Tom Taylor took over after that.

1. Approval of Agenda (19:07:16)

The proposed agenda was at Hackpad The meeting approved it.

2. Minutes of Previous Meetings (19:11:33)

28 September minutes
12 October minutes
These minutes were approved with the following corrections to the October 12 minutes: at time 18:56:15 (TomT5454), delete "probably" and change "tyo" to "to" at the end of the line.

3. LearnOSM organization (Suzan, Blake) (19:23:10)

Suzan reported that she had had a mental block due to the sheer redundancy of the training materials. It seemed to make no sense to carry out the action agreed at a previous meeting, which effectively was that of transcribing the Mapgive content into LearnOSM, rewording to avoid copyright issues. After reviewing the situation with Blake Girardot, the two of them determined that the real need from HOT's point of view is expressed as follows:
"We need a place to send people to go from zero to contributing in 30 mins or less with iD web editor. Right now Mapgive Learn To Map is probably the closest thing we have. But we need a text/imaged based equivalent for low bandwidth and easy translatability."

Subsequent discussion was in agreement with this proposal. Preferably there would be a link to it from the Tasking Manager page. It was suggested that it would be the foundation from which the rest of LearnOSM would be rebuilt. The LearnOSM requirement was characterized as "What is OSM and here's how to map in OSM", whereas the Mapgive material is focussed on "Here is how to do disaster mapping.". There was a suggestion that two different "quick start" modules might be needed, one associated with the Tasking Manager, the other with the general introduction to OpenStreetMap. The Tasking Manager association would be by way of links from Blake's standard template, discussed in the previous meeting. As an example of its application, look at the instructions for Task 1200 or Task 1167.\

Action: Suzan undertook to work with Blake to develop the "quick start" module.

4. Other Business (20:05:45 )

jarmokivekas asked if there were a place where HOT related google docs/hackpads are listed or browsable. There is no place as such. The official HOT document storage area is at [1]. Working Group related documents can be reached through the root directory [2]. Anything HOT-related shouldd be linked to the ultimate root directory, [3].

5. Next Meeting

Agreed that the next meeting will be Monday, November 9, beginning at 19:00 UTC.

Meeting ended at 20:14:39 UTC.

People present (lines said)

  • SuzanReed (45)
  • SteveBower (44)
  • russdeffner (35)
  • TomT5454 (26)
  • RAytoun (16)
  • hot_meetbot` (3)
  • jarmokivekas (2)

Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4


(18:59:19 PM) RAytoun [] entered the room.
(18:59:42 PM) SuzanReed [] entered the room.
(19:00:17 PM) SuzanReed: Hello?
(19:00:32 PM) TomT5454: Ralph, Blake or Steve, could you run the HOT Training WG meeting for a few minutes? I'm caught in a conflict -- have to fetch my granddaughters off the school bus.
(19:01:22 PM) TomT5454: Otherwise, my apologies and it will be 15-20 minutes before I get back
(19:01:49 PM) TomT5454: Hi, Suzan
(19:01:52 PM) SuzanReed: I think I am the only one here. I’ll alert others as they join.
(19:02:05 PM) russdeffner: I'm here
(19:02:31 PM) TomT5454: OK, I have to go, back in 15-20. Go ahead without me if there seems to be a quorum
(19:02:31 PM) RAytoun: Hello all, I am here and we can try and limp along until you get back Tom
(19:02:54 PM) TomT5454: Thanks
(19:04:19 PM) RAytoun: Hi Suzan and Russ
(19:04:35 PM) russdeffner: hello
(19:04:42 PM) SuzanReed: Hello
(19:05:15 PM) russdeffner: can someone link the hackpad for me, seem to have lost the email
(19:05:27 PM) RAytoun: Either of you able to set up the bot to get stARTED
(19:05:53 PM) russdeffner: I think anyone can, #startmeeting
(19:06:01 PM) RAytoun:
(19:06:04 PM) SteveBower: Hello all
(19:07:08 PM) SuzanReed: We are starting without Tom. He had to get his granddaughters off the school bus.
(19:07:16 PM) SteveBower: Agenda looks good - all agree?
(19:07:24 PM) SuzanReed: I agree.
(19:08:17 PM) SteveBower: If no comments on the agenda, let's move onto mtg minutes
(19:08:30 PM) RAytoun:
(19:08:30 PM) SteveBower: link#
(19:08:41 PM) SteveBower: I have no comments - was not present
(19:09:30 PM) SuzanReed: No comments. I was not present.
(19:09:42 PM) SteveBower: with the correct link command: #link
(19:09:52 PM) russdeffner: the bot isn't started yet
(19:09:59 PM) SteveBower: oops
(19:10:18 PM) russdeffner: whoever wants to chair, just type #startmeeting followed by the name
(19:10:46 PM) SteveBower: Russell, did your #startmeeting work, w/o a name?
(19:11:15 PM) SteveBower: #startmeeting Training WG 2015-10-26
(19:11:15 PM) hot_meetbot`: Meeting started Mon Oct 26 19:11:11 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SteveBower. Information about MeetBot at
(19:11:15 PM) hot_meetbot`: Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
(19:11:15 PM) hot_meetbot` has changed the topic to: (Meeting topic: Training WG 2015-10-26)
(19:11:15 PM) hot_meetbot`: The meeting name has been set to 'training_wg_2015_10_26'
(19:11:33 PM) SteveBower: We had no comments on the agenda, so moving on to the minutes
(19:11:36 PM) SteveBower: #link
(19:11:42 PM) SteveBower: Any comments? I wasn't present
(19:12:06 PM) russdeffner: so there is basically two weeks of minutes since previous wasn't approved?
(19:12:14 PM) SuzanReed: Yes.
(19:12:36 PM) SteveBower: Let's start with Oct 12 minutes - any comments?
(19:13:26 PM) SteveBower: The meeting was fairly short, shall we move on to the Sep 28 minutes?
(19:13:45 PM) SteveBower: #link
(19:14:02 PM) RAytoun: No comments, they look about right. It was a bit of an ad hoc meeting
(19:14:17 PM) russdeffner: I would say there just are many 'unfinished' items because not often have the people with 'actions' been available last couple meetings
(19:14:35 PM) SteveBower: OK, let's move onto Sep 28 minutes - which I'll review now.
.. (19:17:20 PM) SteveBower: Any comments on the Sep 28 minutes? Ready to move on?
(19:17:32 PM) RAytoun: A number of items were deferred due to the absence of Suzan
(19:18:06 PM) RAytoun: Should they be included in this meeting?
(19:18:08 PM) russdeffner: I'm not completely sure, but it seems everything has carried over; think we can approve
(19:19:08 PM) RAytoun: I agree with approving the minutes
(19:19:15 PM) SteveBower: OK, assuming all have had enough time, let me recap (using meetbot tags)
(19:19:24 PM) SteveBower: #topic Approve agenda
(19:19:25 PM) hot_meetbot` has changed the topic to: Approve agenda (Meeting topic: Training WG 2015-10-26)
(19:19:26 PM) SuzanReed: I agree.
(19:19:47 PM) russdeffner: agree with agenda
(19:19:54 PM) RAytoun: Agree
(19:20:02 PM) SteveBower: The agenda was approved, per discussion above. (Tom had to step out, so Steve is moderating).
(19:20:10 PM) SteveBower: #topic Approve Oct 12 minutes
(19:20:10 PM) hot_meetbot` has changed the topic to: Approve Oct 12 minutes (Meeting topic: Training WG 2015-10-26)
(19:20:11 PM) russdeffner: going to make a few edits to last meeting minutes
((19:20:59 PM) SteveBower: Russell - what changes, for the record?
(19:21:39 PM) TomT5454: I'm here now. Thanks, Steve
(19:22:00 PM) russdeffner: just minor stuff - deleting "probably" (in probably deferred) and a typo in "please" furthre down
(19:22:00 PM) SteveBower: Hi Tom - Can you see our dialog?
(19:22:20 PM) TomT5454: Yes, I reviewed it
(19:22:23 PM) SteveBower: OK. Tom, let me finish mtg minutes, then I'll hand it over.
(19:22:29 PM) TomT5454: Sure
(19:22:42 PM) SteveBower: There were no comments on the Sep 28 minutes, so those are also approved.
(19:23:10 PM) SteveBower: #topic LearnOSM organization (Suzan, Blake)
(19:23:10 PM) hot_meetbot` has changed the topic to: LearnOSM organization (Suzan, Blake) (Meeting topic: Training WG 2015-10-26)
(19:23:16 PM) SteveBower: OK Tom, back to you
(19:24:08 PM) SuzanReed: Blake is not here, so I will report on progress with LearnOSM beginner’s
(19:24:18 PM) TomT5454: OK, Suzan was saying privately that she wasn't sure (may be misquoting) that we were headed in the right direction to meet the needs of new mappers
(19:24:33 PM) SuzanReed: I have been stumped, and Blake and I “talked” about how to proceed.
(19:25:06 PM) SuzanReed: We had a good exchange, and I am more confident in writiing this material.
(19:25:20 PM) SuzanReed: This was the sticking point:
(19:25:41 PM) SuzanReed: There are many excellent and redundant training materials for beginners.
(19:25:58 PM) SuzanReed: They all say the same things, with some jumping over ID into JOSM.
(19:27:33 PM) SuzanReed: “ We need a
(19:27:33 PM) SuzanReed: place to send people to go from zero to contributing in 30 mins or
(19:27:35 PM) SuzanReed: less with iD web editor.
(19:27:36 PM) SuzanReed: Right now Learn To Map is probably the
(19:27:38 PM) SuzanReed: closest thing we have.
(19:27:39 PM) SuzanReed: But we need a text/imaged based equivalent for low bandwidth and easy
(19:27:39 PM) SuzanReed: translatability.”
(19:28:10 PM) SuzanReed: Ooops. Made multi lines. Hope you can read Blake’s direction.
(19:28:45 PM) SteveBower: That sounds like a good description, matches my expectations
(19:28:56 PM) SuzanReed: I started writing this yesterday and would like to get Blake’s feedback before group review.
(19:29:12 PM) RAytoun: It reads fine and Zero to contributing was the major problem with activations
(19:29:28 PM) SuzanReed: I was stuck re hashing the same old everyone else had written, and didn’t see the point.
(19:30:30 PM) SuzanReed: As I map in Mexico, I see lots of mapping “mistakes”, and would like to point people to a simple, quick bit of information. This has always been my expectation, too, but I got stuck rewriting the same old.
(19:31:21 PM) SuzanReed: Is there a possibility of putting this simplified beginner’s info in the top of the Tasking Manager for easy reference?
(19:32:02 PM) TomT5454: So perhaps a starter kitt of a description, then little snippets explaining particu;lar points in slightly greater depth
(19:32:05 PM) SuzanReed: There’s a button over to the right side with information, but it’s not clear what it is. It would be better if it were clearly visible.
(19:32:28 PM) RAytoun: Excellent! I have proposed that the instructions in the Tasking Manager is the place where all HOT beginners get started
(19:32:28 PM) SuzanReed: What Blake and I have in mind is something very simple.
(19:32:40 PM) SteveBower: Once the "quick start" module is ready, I think having a standard link to it for new mappers would be great
(19:33:33 PM) SuzanReed: I apologize for getting stuck. I had an idea of what was wanted, but I needed more direction, and that’s what I got yesterday from Blake.
(19:34:15 PM) SuzanReed: I could not see the point in rewriting what had been done by others into simply something that broke the copyright.
(19:34:30 PM) TomT5454: I get stuck for weeks at a time myself. Same sort of thing -- excessive redundancy, have to figure out what to jettison
(19:34:38 PM) SteveBower: Our current plan (as I understand it) is to create the "quick start" LearnOSM module, then revise other beginner modules (not specific to HOT) to work around that.
(19:34:56 PM) SuzanReed: That’s what I understand, too, Steve.
(19:35:15 PM) SuzanReed: But until this first bit is written, it’s difficult to edit those other modules.
(19:35:26 PM) SuzanReed: It’s not been possible to see how they fit.
(19:35:43 PM) TomT5454: So I expect the topics are:
(19:35:47 PM) SuzanReed: So now I’m on the right track and will keep in close contact with Blake.
(19:36:04 PM) SteveBower: Yep. But with this plan we'll ultimately have a single LearnOSM go-to repository, but with a module that serves HOT's needs.
(19:36:11 PM) SuzanReed: His email to me was quite long. I only quoted the top bit.
(19:36:15 PM) chelovekamfibiya: sorry to cut in off topic, is there going to be a task for the Afghanistan Earthquake? we have volunteers interested at harvard, following the mapathon we had for the Nepal quake... thanks (Lex Berman, Harvard CGA)
(19:36:32 PM) SteveBower: Thanks, Suzan
(19:37:16 PM) SteveBower: chelovekamfibiya - if no one else here answers, the HOT mail list would be a good place to pose that question
(19:37:23 PM) russdeffner: chelovekamfibya - our team is monitoring
(19:37:33 PM) chelovekamfibiya: thanks Steve
(19:37:57 PM) chelovekamfibiya: russ, how do I direct volunteers? i am watching the HOT OSM task page...
(19:38:48 PM) russdeffner: if there are public tasks created the team will most likely send an email to the main list first...
(19:39:05 PM) SuzanReed: The email address for the HOT mailing list:
(19:39:12 PM) russdeffner:
(19:39:23 PM) russdeffner: to signup and recieve messages
(19:39:37 PM) chelovekamfibiya: thanks, suzan, I will have to sign up on the listserve then...
(19:39:59 PM) SuzanReed: That’s the best place to learn what’s going on and if there are activations.
(19:39:59 PM) TomT5454: Need to cover how to map a limited set of specific objects: roads and houses and areas
(19:40:00 PM) SteveBower: There is a discussion thread on the HOT maillist. Pierre Béland reported 3 hr ago, "started a Skype room to coordinate where HOT volunteers are starting to assess the situation."
(19:40:04 PM) russdeffner: you can message without signing up, but won't get messages to the list
(19:40:38 PM) russdeffner: yes, and I'll just say that it is a tricky situation mapping wise due to pakistan law
(19:41:08 PM) russdeffner: so it may be some time to work things out, currently the group is still trying to pinpoint damage, etc
(19:41:09 PM) chelovekamfibiya: yes, I tried a msg but it got put in moderation, then asked a question and the moderator suggested I go to IRC channel...
(19:41:24 PM) TomT5454: Interesting -- I mapped in Pakistan itself at one point
(19:42:16 PM) chelovekamfibiya: ironically, we had big interest in Hurrican Patricia over the weekend, but in reality the infrastructure in Afghanistan is much weaker than Mexico, and the hurricane was not nearly as bad an impact
(19:42:26 PM) russdeffner: as an individual remote mapping is probably fine (especially if you don't plan on visiting)
(19:42:39 PM) SteveBower: chelovekamfibiya, do you have any info to help assess the situation?
(19:43:15 PM) TomT5454: I'm also a HOT list moderator. I just released a message from you
(19:43:20 PM) russdeffner: I would suggest if you do, please email
(19:43:23 PM) chelovekamfibiya: steve, not really, we have a team who worked on Nepal, and with this earthquake I started to receive their emails, asking where they can volunteer
(19:43:48 PM) russdeffner: that is the group that coordinates HOT disaster mapping
(19:43:52 PM) chelovekamfibiya: though, of course, we probably have various vector and raster data for Afghanistan on our data servers here.
(19:44:19 PM) chelovekamfibiya: thanks everyone, I will move onto the listeserver...
(19:44:34 PM) russdeffner: and the working group (Activation WG) meets here tomorrow 1400 UTC
(19:44:46 PM) russdeffner: if no news before that
(19:45:23 PM) chelovekamfibiya: okay, I will keep checking back! we have various contacts, if anyone needs to reach me:
(19:46:34 PM) russdeffner: great, thanks!
(19:46:50 PM) TomT5454: Back to the quick start? What are the topics?
(19:47:00 PM) SteveBower: Suzan, anything else at this point? (19:47:27 PM) SuzanReed: My report is complete. I’ll stick with Blake on my task.
(19:47:30 PM) chelovekamfibiya left the room.
(19:47:36 PM) russdeffner: My two-cents on a quickstart is that it is much more 'this is what OSM is and how to get started' where MapGive is more this is 'disaster mapping and how to get started'
(19:47:59 PM) SuzanReed: Exactly. In agreement, Steve.
(19:48:57 PM) SteveBower: Back to Tom's comment, I agree, would be good to specifically cover what needed to map roads, buildings, and areas (e.g., residential areas). But it should be applicable to both HOT and non-HOT users (so, not too HOT...)
(19:49:17 PM) SuzanReed: Not to HOT. Agreed.
(19:49:46 PM) RAytoun: My opinion is that the OSM how to get started shoold come from the beginning of the OpenStreetMap mapping and the HOT from the Tasking Manager
(19:50:40 PM) SteveBower: Ralph, how do you mean, "from the TM"? Do you mean the actual material should be in a TM page, rather than a LearnOSM page?
(19:51:02 PM) TomT5454: Definitely it's the Tasking Manager that would describe how to recoignize particular features in the region being mapped
(19:51:42 PM) RAytoun: No not the actual material.Blake set up an excellent set of instructions with links to guides for those specific features
(19:52:28 PM) RAytoun: I think I referred to that task in a previous meeting
(19:52:33 PM) russdeffner: Yep, think we'll be working towards some 'standardized' instructions specific to the common map features we ask for
(19:52:47 PM) SteveBower: OK, good
(19:52:52 PM) TomT5454: Yes, sounds right
(19:52:56 PM) russdeffner: or, yes - should say - we are and commented on that last time
(19:53:33 PM) SuzanReed: So are you saying Point, Line, Area and how to square an Area? (19:53:35 PM) russdeffner: Blake has good start, maybe need to 'modularize' somehow - would be great to eventually have it 'automated' in the TM
(19:54:14 PM) SuzanReed: That’s what I needed to know. And how to set up an account.
(19:54:28 PM) russdeffner: so as example, you pick 'roads and buildings' for the features and it populates the instructions
(19:54:41 PM) RAytoun: I will check back for the example I am talking about. He links to instructions how to map a road, how to map a building etc.
(19:54:57 PM) SuzanReed: I didn’t need to know the history of OSM, nor did I need to know how to use JOSM. I just wanted to help, and to do it quickly.
(19:56:16 PM) SuzanReed: I also needed the instructions on each page of the TM.
(19:56:56 PM) TomT5454: As a JOSM user I can't imagine getting along without the building preset. It was so painful mapping in Mali before I learned about it
(19:57:02 PM) SuzanReed: I didn’t need a link so some remote place where I had to read through a bunch of words that did not relate to me.
(19:57:04 PM) SteveBower: We could really use those common task instructions. I was in a mapathon yesterday and the task had no instructions for how to tag roads, so the instructor said to use "highway=unclassified", which is incorrect (that's actually a defined classification). Every task should be clear how to tag roads.
(19:57:14 PM) SteveBower: You can square building in ID now
(19:57:34 PM) SteveBower: Not as full-featured as the JOSM plugin, but at least squares them
(19:57:35 PM) TomT5454: That helps
(19:57:53 PM) SuzanReed: It’s easy to square buildings in ID.
(19:58:21 PM) SteveBower: (That task was the Patricia hurricane, FYI)
(19:58:33 PM) SuzanReed: I can’t get JOSM to download data again so I use ID and it’s fine.
(19:58:47 PM) RAytoun: Suzan, you are talking my language. Getting people started and helping them when they stumble
(19:59:15 PM) SuzanReed: I am so new I really needed Blake to sort me out.
(20:00:29 PM) SuzanReed: Now when mappig in Mali, I didn’t know how to tag some things, Ralph, and you helped me out. Having a place to ask questions of a real person would also be good.
(20:00:29 PM) SteveBower: Are we ready to move onto Other Business? I have to leave in a few mins, regardless.
(20:00:40 PM) RAytoun: Here is one of Blake's tasks on the Tasking Manager where he gives very clear instructions
(20:00:44 PM) SuzanReed: Please. Let’s move on
(20:01:32 PM) TomT5454: Could we have an action to name the specific features we want to cover?
(20:01:45 PM) RAytoun: I have suggested that some validators take ownership of a few projects along with the activator and be available for those projects
(20:02:18 PM) SteveBower: @Tom - can you clarify? In what context?
(20:02:58 PM) TomT5454: OK, a zero to contribute in 20 minutes is going to cover a number of steps. Can these be enumerated?
(20:03:20 PM) russdeffner: FYI, here is the link to Blake's page on the draft standard instructions:,_Buildings,_Waterways_Instructions
(20:03:54 PM) TomT5454: OK, I'll check that out and see if anything is missing
(20:04:18 PM) russdeffner: maybe we can just use the discussion page there if we think something needs added
(20:04:43 PM) russdeffner: I just don't know how we can get from that to actually getting people to use them in the TM
(20:05:22 PM) TomT5454: OK, good idea. I expect we need instructions on ancillary stuff like signing up, starting up iD, ...
(20:05:45 PM) TomT5454: Other business?
(20:05:51 PM) RAytoun:
(20:05:58 PM) jarmokivekas: Hi! is there a place where HOT related google docs/hakpads are listed or browsable? Some times people link to a document and it's difficult to find it later.
(20:06:30 PM) SteveBower: @Tom, switch the #topic?
(20:06:55 PM) SteveBower: jarmokivekas : Not that I know of - that's not done systematically (20:07:01 PM) russdeffner: jarmokivekas - official HOT docs are here:
(20:07:03 PM) TomT5454: #topic other business
(20:08:00 PM) russdeffner: for working groups and such, they each are a bit different, but typically I start here:
(20:08:06 PM) SteveBower: Russell : Thanks, I'd never viewed that drive. But jarmokivekas, there are many other ad hoc google docs not on that drive.
(20:08:41 PM) TomT5454: Russell, we can chat separately about my E-mail yesterday. Heather and Mikel missed the point because of the particu;lar circumstances of the case
(20:09:03 PM) jarmokivekas: russdeffner: thanks.
(20:09:14 PM) russdeffner: Sure Tom, I've got a ton on my plate right now, and that is one of them
(20:10:23 PM) TomT5454: Looks like no ther business, shall we agree on next meeting time and call it a day?
(20:10:44 PM) russdeffner: no problem jarmokivekas - for the broadest search everything and anything HOT should be linked in one of these places, wiki-page(root): or the webiste:
(20:11:28 PM) TomT5454: A number of documents are listed on the HOT Training WG page
(20:12:08 PM) TomT5454: Is 1900 UTC an OK meeting time in general?
(20:12:28 PM) RAytoun: I am OK with that time
(20:12:39 PM) SteveBower: On the HOT Drive under Working Groups, there's no folder for Training WG. I guess we should create one and use it going forward.
(20:12:40 PM) russdeffner: should be available
(20:12:44 PM) SteveBower: 1900 good for me
(20:13:01 PM) russdeffner: Not necessary if we want to keep wiki our go-to
(20:13:35 PM) SteveBower: OK, the Training WG wiki is fine
(20:13:39 PM) russdeffner: and I should say, really it's up to the WG leads and their Board facilitator
(20:14:24 PM) russdeffner: ok, I also need to get something to eat, so thanks Tom and all
(20:14:42 PM) TomT5454: #endmeeting
(20:14:43 PM) hot_meetbot` has changed the topic to: Hurricane Patricia | #hot log:
(20:14:43 PM) hot_meetbot`: Meeting ended Mon Oct 26 20:14:39 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)
(20:14:43 PM) hot_meetbot`: Minutes:
(20:14:43 PM) hot_meetbot`: Minutes (text):
(20:14:43 PM) hot_meetbot`: Log:
(20:15:06 PM) SteveBower: Ciao