Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/16 February 2015
Feb 16 16:00:33 BlakeGirardot: Hi everyone
Feb 16 16:00:51 russdeffner: hello
Feb 16 16:01:44 BlakeGirardot: Training WG Meeting is getting ready to start.
Feb 16 16:01:50 clairedelune: Good evening/morning!
Feb 16 16:05:12 BlakeGirardot: This seems like it is going to be a quite meeting.
Feb 16 16:06:25 BlakeGirardot: The agenda is here: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-Feb-16-tD8TE1J63Sk
Feb 16 16:06:52 russdeffner: my apologies - I haven't sent a second/reminder email to Emir and Joireke to ask about a better meeting time, will do today
Feb 16 16:07:01 althio: Hi BlakeGirardot russdeffner clairedelune, hi all
Feb 16 16:07:09 BlakeGirardot: Hi althio
Feb 16 16:07:33 BlakeGirardot: Oh that is a good idea Russ, I had forgotten about that.
Feb 16 16:09:01 russdeffner: is there anyone else who has expressed interest in joining us that I should include?
Feb 16 16:09:12 BlakeGirardot: RAytoun
Feb 16 16:09:14 BlakeGirardot: maybe
Feb 16 16:09:26 BlakeGirardot: Let me find his email addy
Feb 16 16:09:37 clairedelune: Yves maybe too
Feb 16 16:10:47 russdeffner: Ok, I don't think I have either of their emails, so how about I'll CC the TWG and feel free to forward?
Feb 16 16:10:49 BlakeGirardot: russ, I put the email address
Feb 16 16:10:54 BlakeGirardot: into a private message to you
Feb 16 16:11:05 russdeffner: or PM me their email :)
Feb 16 16:11:06 BlakeGirardot: so it doesn't get logged here
Feb 16 16:12:16 BlakeGirardot: see one Yves on the mailing list, email go your pm russ
Feb 16 16:12:33 russdeffner: ok, thanks
Feb 16 16:13:32 BlakeGirardot: And I'll mail the HOT list as well, but the main point is to get emir and jorieke if they are interested
Feb 16 16:13:48 althio: pyrog is interested in technical contribution
Feb 16 16:13:54 BlakeGirardot: so it would help to have their avails to base a doodle poll from
Feb 16 16:14:22 althio: AFAIK he is not into WG and internal discussions
Feb 16 16:14:35 BlakeGirardot: hold up on yves russ
Feb 16 16:14:39 BlakeGirardot: if it is not too late
Feb 16 16:14:50 russdeffner: ok, holding
Feb 16 16:15:14 Tallguy: Hi folks, sorry I'm late
Feb 16 16:15:23 clairedelune: Hello Nick!
Feb 16 16:15:27 BlakeGirardot: I put the correct email for Yves in your pm russ
Feb 16 16:15:34 BlakeGirardot: Hi Tallguy
Feb 16 16:15:49 BlakeGirardot: Agenda here: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-Feb-16-tD8TE1J63Sk
Feb 16 16:16:24 Tallguy: thanks blake - catching up now
Feb 16 16:21:16 BlakeGirardot: Ok, cool russ, I think that is everyone we have named that is interested. If they could just give us general availablity I'll make a doodle poll
Feb 16 16:23:08 russdeffner: sounds good
Feb 16 16:24:31 BlakeGirardot: Can I take an agenda item out of order real quick?
Feb 16 16:25:11 althio: Oh yes
Feb 16 16:25:24 russdeffner: Blake - when you get a chance, PM me pyrog's email, thanks
Feb 16 16:25:40 BlakeGirardot: It is the 2nd Yves address
Feb 16 16:26:03 russdeffner: ok, thanks!
Feb 16 16:28:00 BlakeGirardot: So the Activation Coordinator Project, that item is just informational, I don't think we have been involved, but I wanted everyone in this group to know about it.
Feb 16 16:28:51 BlakeGirardot: The link to the main document about it is on the agenda document. There are discussons on going on that document as well if anyone would like to comment on it.
Feb 16 16:29:38 russdeffner: One good point that I discovered at the AWG meeting was that Coordinator training/certification probably cannot be fully automated (i.e. moodle-d)
Feb 16 16:30:10 russdeffner: Will probably need some 'oversite'/sign-off from existing coordinator(s)
Feb 16 16:30:11 BlakeGirardot: Ya, that was never a good fit for moodle.
Feb 16 16:30:41 BlakeGirardot: Too many moving parts and human interaction based.
Feb 16 16:31:06 BlakeGirardot: Parts of it could be moodle'ized like using umap or something.
Feb 16 16:31:42 BlakeGirardot: But moodle is really just a way to organize video lectures, textual info and then quiz on those items.
Feb 16 16:32:03 BlakeGirardot: And track who watched/answered what.
Feb 16 16:32:52 BlakeGirardot: Or it can be a companion to live presentations as well, with an actual schdule of "class" days and times, but I don't we have envisioned that use at all.
Feb 16 16:34:03 clairedelune: That would work only if all participants are in well connected environments and we wouldn't want to discriminate participants IMO
Feb 16 16:34:17 BlakeGirardot: Ya, I am not for that
Feb 16 16:34:39 BlakeGirardot: Just pointing out it could be used for that.
Feb 16 16:34:52 clairedelune: Yes, thank you
Feb 16 16:35:29 russdeffner: It seemed like at least Severin is already sort of doing a 'mentor-ship' were he has a trainee coordinator shadow him before they are 'considered' a coordinator
Feb 16 16:35:48 russdeffner: but with the whole larger project, curiculum, etc. needs to be formalized
Feb 16 16:36:00 skorasaurus: BlakeGirardot: I honestly haven't used it in some time
Feb 16 16:36:34 BlakeGirardot: skorasaurus: Ya, thats what it looked like, thats why we thought you might have some feedback like "couldn't get any traction, eveyone used fb instead" or something.
Feb 16 16:36:51 skorasaurus: BlakeGirardot, i'll reach out to you after the TWG mtg.
Feb 16 16:37:04 BlakeGirardot: skorasaurus: Cool. ty
Feb 16 16:39:31 BlakeGirardot: Shall we hit another agenda topic?
Feb 16 16:42:26 russdeffner: sure
Feb 16 16:43:50 BlakeGirardot: So RAytoun is not here and I failed again to announce the meeting on the public list
Feb 16 16:45:07 BlakeGirardot: I'd say lets table that one for next meeting?
Feb 16 16:45:12 Tallguy: At the last meeting I asked for time to put my thoughts in order about reorganising LearnOSM - have we decided on that - I have a document if you would like to read?
Feb 16 16:46:02 BlakeGirardot: By all means please Tallguy
Feb 16 16:46:03 Tallguy: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0aBvs8X8g2sdVJWREJNMXFUaVU/view
Feb 16 16:46:52 russdeffner: off topic - I think we can delete the chat about who to email under agenda item 6, any reason to leave it?
Feb 16 16:47:20 clairedelune: agreed russdeffner
Feb 16 16:47:29 Tallguy: Deleting seems sensible to me
Feb 16 16:47:44 BlakeGirardot: ya, it can go
Feb 16 16:48:17 althio: Agreed
Feb 16 16:48:44 russdeffner: done, thanks
Feb 16 16:49:14 BlakeGirardot: (reading nick's doc)
Feb 16 16:50:26 clairedelune: Email will follow (if it was not yet sent), so I don't think it will create issues if this part doesn't say public. Tallguy, were you saying that in general or for this particular case?
Feb 16 16:51:17 Tallguy: My comment about deleting only related to the discussion on names
Feb 16 16:53:10 althio: Well nice work tallguy
Feb 16 16:53:23 BlakeGirardot: Yes, very helpful.
Feb 16 16:53:41 althio: It certainly fits my own discussions with pyrog
Feb 16 16:54:04 althio: And a few project ideas I launched
Feb 16 16:54:06 BlakeGirardot: I just want to acknowledge and I know everyone here knows it already: After working with LearnOSM recently
Feb 16 16:54:20 BlakeGirardot: the challenges we have had
Feb 16 16:54:34 BlakeGirardot: make the accomplishments of the founders of LearnOSM all the more impressive
Feb 16 16:54:57 althio: Your document is also more clear than my emails and requests on the lists
Feb 16 16:55:34 althio: So hopefully we could get more help and feedback thanks to this work
Feb 16 16:55:50 Tallguy: BlakeGirardot - I agree. The info on GitHub about how to set up a site leads you to design what we have now
Feb 16 16:56:47 BlakeGirardot: So, question
Feb 16 16:57:04 BlakeGirardot: Tallguy: Do you fully understand the new layout system pyrog is using?
Feb 16 16:57:16 BlakeGirardot: I mean file organization and such
Feb 16 16:57:29 BlakeGirardot: It hasn't quite clicked for me yet
Feb 16 16:57:46 BlakeGirardot: But if you think it is an improvement, that is good enough for me.
Feb 16 16:57:58 Tallguy: Not entirely - it makes sense, but I couldn't design a site using it - I need technical help
Feb 16 16:58:09 BlakeGirardot: Well you and althio, if you both think it is an improvement I am sold.
Feb 16 16:58:11 Tallguy: I still come back to time versus result
Feb 16 16:58:33 althio: Blake Have you looked at his repo?
Feb 16 16:58:50 BlakeGirardot: I have this general feeling we need a better file system organization method than the psudo blog style now
Feb 16 16:59:04 BlakeGirardot: I just looked at it for 2 mins althio
Feb 16 16:59:37 althio: OK could you link the location of files?
Feb 16 16:59:41 BlakeGirardot: And it wasn't immediately clear to me, but I understand it is a work in progress.
Feb 16 16:59:56 althio: Before blog, after flat
Feb 16 17:00:40 Tallguy: I think that using pyrog's system you could have 'task manager' in 'remote' and in 'info for ngos at the same time - but that may be possible now?
Feb 16 17:01:33 BlakeGirardot: https://github.com/pyrog/learnosm-sandbox
Feb 16 17:01:42 BlakeGirardot: sorry, I didn't understand for a second there althio
Feb 16 17:02:05 althio: Tallguy: not sure in either case
Feb 16 17:02:36 BlakeGirardot: That is the link to the new repository with pyrog's re-organization of the file system for LearnOSM, using the existing LearnOSM files, just moved around, renamed and in different folder structure
Feb 16 17:02:43 BlakeGirardot: (if I understand things correctly)
Feb 16 17:03:13 althio: Yes that is the idea
Feb 16 17:04:09 althio: Same content, simplify paths and folder structure, simplify front matter
Feb 16 17:04:13 Tallguy: I think a lot of the change would need manual work, which is fine, but we may need more guidance
Feb 16 17:04:27 BlakeGirardot: I am all for it. I just need to deep dive into what is really going on with it. I really feel we need a change from what we have now, and that is no critisim of what we have now, as I said, I consider what we ahve now amazing.
Feb 16 17:05:03 althio: Build the same site with other foundations
Feb 16 17:06:07 althio: And pre-wired for plugins and gimmicks
Feb 16 17:08:06 althio: I am pretty convinced by pyrog, am happy to see that Nick feels the same way after a deep look
Feb 16 17:08:56 althio: Hopefully lxbarth may give his valuable insights given his experience with the current structure
Feb 16 17:09:43 Tallguy: I feel we need to agree (with advice from pyrog) about how the languages are dealt with - do images go in language folders, or do we change the filename so it has a language element?
Feb 16 17:10:32 Tallguy: I would also like a second opinion from other experts such as Jeff & lxbarth
Feb 16 17:11:51 Tallguy: We also need to consider the transition - I guess there will be a period of an hour or so with LearnOSM down while old files are deleted & replaced with new from the sandbox
Feb 16 17:12:04 BlakeGirardot: I don't think it has to work like that Tallguy
Feb 16 17:12:26 BlakeGirardot: I think it is just a matter of getting it staged under the hotosm org github account
Feb 16 17:12:31 BlakeGirardot: LearnOSM v2 or something
Feb 16 17:12:54 Tallguy: I would prefer that, so that hotosm has ownership
Feb 16 17:12:59 BlakeGirardot: then you just change the CNAME files in the root directory so the new one is the one learnosm.org points to instead of the old one.
Feb 16 17:13:29 BlakeGirardot: But I also concur to hear from jeff and alex on it
Feb 16 17:13:39 clairedelune: I'm not sure hotosm should have ownership
Feb 16 17:14:13 BlakeGirardot: But my main influnce for agreement is Tallguy and althio's opinions after they have decided.
Feb 16 17:14:20 althio: I have no clue yet about images structure hence https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/14
Feb 16 17:15:32 clairedelune: I couldn't unfortunately go deep enough yet in pyrog's explanations and sandbox but would welcome a step-by-step accurate summary of the steps needed for the transition.
Feb 16 17:16:26 Tallguy: clairedelune - not sure I understand you - I assumed we would have it within the hotosm stable the same as the current learnosm?
Feb 16 17:16:31 althio: Well I guess he has a rough idea that he could propose
Feb 16 17:17:14 althio: But not an accurate summary of the transition steps yet
Feb 16 17:17:16 clairedelune: Am sorry that I can't stay longer for now, will read your notes afterwards. And thank you very much Tallguy for taking time for this long explanation.
Feb 16 17:17:42 BlakeGirardot: Bye clairedelune
Feb 16 17:17:47 clairedelune: Will try to clarify my thinging tonight Tallguy
Feb 16 17:17:51 clairedelune: Thanks all
Feb 16 17:17:59 althio: Bye
Feb 16 17:17:59 Tallguy: Bye
Feb 16 17:18:01 clairedelune: OFF TOPIC: would anyone know who uploaded the Haiti presets on the HOT Exports tool? There seems to be a bug in it (giving "error in CDE"). See http://export.hotosm.org/en/jobs/10867 or 10870 (one with and without default tags, both with Haiti presets). dodobas couldn't identify the problem. Anyone around who's faced that already?
Feb 16 17:18:03 russdeffner: bye Claire
Feb 16 17:23:09 althio: What kind of feedback or green light do we ask from the creators of the current structure and design of LearnOSM?
Feb 16 17:23:54 BlakeGirardot: I'd like to see pyrog clean up his example structure
Feb 16 17:24:06 BlakeGirardot: before we make an effort to get other people to look at it and evaluate it
Feb 16 17:25:01 Tallguy: there are (or were a day or so ago) 3 branches & they are obviously different systems he is trying
Feb 16 17:25:19 BlakeGirardot: I see
Feb 16 17:25:26 BlakeGirardot: I mean, oh, ok.
Feb 16 17:26:37 althio: It is hard to ask him more effort already with so few feedback. I understand he is reluctant to work more if people do not show some interest.
Feb 16 17:27:24 BlakeGirardot: Well
Feb 16 17:27:37 Tallguy: I can understand that - there is a lot of work involved.
Feb 16 17:27:38 BlakeGirardot: Then there are two issues
Feb 16 17:28:41 BlakeGirardot: Are we going to change
Feb 16 17:28:45 BlakeGirardot: And what are we going to change to
Feb 16 17:29:41 BlakeGirardot: So if we decide we are going to change then maybe that helps pyrog feel it is worht it to straighten out his repo a little
Feb 16 17:30:22 BlakeGirardot: or he can give someone else collaborator access and a couple of peope can help get it polished up
Feb 16 17:31:32 althio: That is definitely an option: people helping him and understanding even more the proposed change
Feb 16 17:31:36 BlakeGirardot: Do we all agree we need to change from the existing structure?
Feb 16 17:32:15 Tallguy: At the moment my thought is - the change would be good. But I don't 'own' LearnOSM and we need the views of others - they need to look, understand why, and then give approval (or not)
Feb 16 17:32:17 BlakeGirardot: Is the existing structure just making maintenance and additions too difficult?
Feb 16 17:32:44 BlakeGirardot: Is it just a knowledge issue on our part that is making it so difficult? (I don't think so)
Feb 16 17:33:12 althio: I am convinced, but I don't know about Jeff or Alex, Kate...
Feb 16 17:33:30 russdeffner: Without any expertise on the matter, it seems that Nick's document describes the what and why pretty well
Feb 16 17:33:31 Tallguy: Changing the image filing system had already been started by Jeff, and that could be continued - that works for all systems & should identify which image files are no longer needed
Feb 16 17:36:21 althio: Current structure is making maintenance and additions cumbersome, and is limiting for extra features afaiu
Feb 16 17:37:27 Tallguy: sorry, further thought - but changing the image filing system may need pyrog to approve
Feb 16 17:38:12 Tallguy: althio - yes, but it has worked up until now. Maybe not ideal, but it does work.
Feb 16 17:38:30 BlakeGirardot: So what do we think the next step should be?
Feb 16 17:38:56 russdeffner: I guess maybe we need to hear back from Claire regarding the 'ownership' stuff, then reach out to everyone involved
Feb 16 17:39:21 BlakeGirardot: Ok, what are we reaching out and asking jeff, alex and kate?
Feb 16 17:39:38 althio: Yes, working and manageable if you have the step by step documentation for the bit that are not fully logical
Feb 16 17:40:07 Tallguy: We also need to hear from pyrog, or at least have an assurance he is willing to keep helping
Feb 16 17:40:35 BlakeGirardot: That is the part I am not clear on, what we want to ask jeff alex and kate.
Feb 16 17:41:26 russdeffner: In general it sounds like we would be asking if/how to go about changing the structure
Feb 16 17:42:01 althio: I think pyrog is willing to keep helping, but that is only a promise, not a contract ;)
Feb 16 17:42:45 BlakeGirardot: So we could say something like
Feb 16 17:42:56 Tallguy: althio - that is good enough for me - can he advise on a 'how to change over?'
Feb 16 17:43:29 BlakeGirardot: We think that changing the site structure will help us with maintenance and additions
Feb 16 17:43:33 althio: Yes I am sure he can give his views to change over
Feb 16 17:43:52 BlakeGirardot: But we don't know all the considerations that went into creating it like it is.
Feb 16 17:44:24 BlakeGirardot: Could you offer us any advice on re-organizing the site's file layout to move away from the blog structure?
Feb 16 17:44:38 Tallguy: BlakeGirardot - also I think he & others, are unwilling to work on the site as it is currently organised.
Feb 16 17:44:53 BlakeGirardot: I guess just if they considered or tried anything else and found it problematic and we don't know.
Feb 16 17:45:25 BlakeGirardot: And do they have any strong feelings against us trying another layout.
Feb 16 17:49:10 BlakeGirardot: So we wait to hear back from claire and organize our thoughts some in the mean time is my suggestion, based on russ's suggestion :)
Feb 16 17:49:33 BlakeGirardot: Tallguy probably already has his organized, I still need to sort mine :)
Feb 16 17:49:56 Tallguy: Not entirely - I've worked out the problem, not the solution!
Feb 16 17:52:24 BlakeGirardot: We are coming up on 2 hours, shall we talk about outreachy or hot summit?
Feb 16 17:54:17 althio: +1 for the joined effort with more voices from the training WG to reach out
Feb 16 17:54:51 althio: I know I tried on the lists and issues but I welcome your support
Feb 16 17:55:21 BlakeGirardot: I am sorry althio, on what topic do you mean?
Feb 16 17:56:59 althio: Previous topic, change LearnOSM
Feb 16 17:57:49 BlakeGirardot: Ah, ok, I see.
Feb 16 17:58:20 BlakeGirardot: Ya, you and Tallguy have made a huge effort on LearnOSM in every aspect really
Feb 16 17:58:35 Tallguy: althio - I saw you submitted a pull request to the sandbox - would the easiest thing be for us to individually do that?
Feb 16 17:58:51 Tallguy: & if so, how long do you estimate it would take us?
Feb 16 17:58:51 osmbot-test: Tallguy: Error: "if" is not a valid command.
Feb 16 17:59:25 althio: To add every file or polish the site?
Feb 16 17:59:31 BlakeGirardot: I have stayed away from it because of the organization issue and I had a little problem with both learnosm and teachosm locally here.
Feb 16 17:59:55 Tallguy: to add every file - is it feasible with 3 or 4 of us working on it?
Feb 16 18:00:06 althio: I don't know my PR was not in earnest
Feb 16 18:00:29 althio: I think fork and work locally is best
Feb 16 18:00:45 althio: Then PR to the sandbox
Feb 16 18:01:00 Tallguy: ok - I'd like to develop a more in depth document about how to add to LearnOSM - that could help with whatever we do.
Feb 16 18:01:21 althio: We can coordinate with proof, no problem I think
Feb 16 18:01:44 althio: Without proof, with pyrog
Feb 16 18:02:06 Tallguy: we need to stay away from the Spanish & many German files as they are in active translation
Feb 16 18:03:30 Tallguy: Give me some time to develop it, but I'll produce something of a detailed guide & put it into an issue - we can then discuss & test it
Feb 16 18:04:00 BlakeGirardot: Is that going to be for pyrog's new suggested layout?
Feb 16 18:04:40 Tallguy: yes, but we need something whether we go with that or not - there us just too much info on the Github help pages
Feb 16 18:05:22 BlakeGirardot: Ya, agree
Feb 16 18:05:40 althio: Absolutely delighted to have a detailed guide for contributing
Feb 16 18:05:42 BlakeGirardot: But we could start with a simple document v. a step by step for the new layout
Feb 16 18:05:44 BlakeGirardot: if possible
Feb 16 18:06:29 BlakeGirardot: The only real consideration Ihave for image layout is whatever allows us to autogenerate pdfs
Feb 16 18:06:44 Tallguy: althio, it would be good if you could let pyrog know we are still interested, but need to learn how to make the transition - we're working on it
Feb 16 18:07:09 Tallguy: The pdf's are fairly easy, but there is a manual element
Feb 16 18:07:22 althio: I will let him know
Feb 16 18:08:19 Tallguy: <BlakeGirardot> pandoc -f html -t odt -o Mapathon.odt http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/remote/
Feb 16 18:09:02 Tallguy: once you have the .odt you get it to add a TOC & then tidy it slightly
Feb 16 18:10:03 BlakeGirardot: I see. Interesting.
Feb 16 18:11:21 Tallguy: I think it's satoshi who should get the credit for that
Feb 16 18:12:16 BlakeGirardot: The pdf on that page doesn't match the web page at all or am I not understanding something?
Feb 16 18:13:47 Tallguy: The pdf was made by me merging 3 different .odt files and then adding a TOC - sounds difficult, but only took an hour or so - a simple .pdf of just one part of the site should only take a few minutes
Feb 16 18:14:00 BlakeGirardot: I see.
Feb 16 18:16:22 Tallguy: Are we winding up the meeting fairly soon? Sorry, but I have a couple of other commitments to sort before I can get back to HOT bits late tonight
Feb 16 18:16:40 BlakeGirardot: Ya, we are a bit over time.
Feb 16 18:16:43 althio: I must leave guys
Feb 16 18:17:06 althio: It is a shame about the outreachy projects
Feb 16 18:17:12 BlakeGirardot: Ok, thank you all very much. I'll get some notes and the log up if anyone wants to re-read it.
Feb 16 18:17:14 russdeffner: was there anything we need to do for items 3 and 5? - I don't have anything to add to either but need to leave soon
Feb 16 18:17:35 BlakeGirardot: No, I just put them on there
Feb 16 18:17:40 BlakeGirardot: to make srue we knew
Feb 16 18:17:52 althio: Should we discuss in the lists? Deadline is close iirc
Feb 16 18:18:23 BlakeGirardot: I think we should.
Feb 16 18:19:00 russdeffner: ok, thanks everyone!
Feb 16 18:19:39 BlakeGirardot: Thank you very much russ, Tallguy althio !
Feb 16 18:19:45 Tallguy: Thanks, sorry I have to go
Feb 16 18:20:11 althio: Bye everyon