Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/22 December 2014
This meeting took place on IRC #hot channel at 15:00 UTC.
Participants: russdeffner, BlakeGirardot, Tallguy_Nick, Canepa, althio, clairedelune, emirhartato
- 1 Agenda
- 2 Notes/Summary
- 3 Minutes
- 4 IRC Transcript
- Sort and prioritise issues on github/hotosm/learnosm
- agreement to try waffle.io to manage priorities and labels of issues on GitHub
- from previous experience triage sessions on waffle.io/Mumble are efficient
- try out session [at the end of the meeting]
- LearnOSM translation process
- review of last update of Contributing.md
- added email option for the translator as option A (easiest for translator)
- option B refers to direct edit in GitHub. It is not totally clear yet and might be partially merged with option A
- option C refers to historical workflow. It is arguably the most difficult for the translator and it requires to give write access to the github repository. The existing documentation is well-written, with detailed steps and screenshots but still technical. No general consensus on this workflow or proposed modifications.
- proposal for maintaining a clone repository for the purpose of translation only
- translation process is unresolved yet, all options are to be refined and discussed further in lists and issues
- resolution to start German translation with volunteer
- display on web pages: translation headers and translation triage
- proposal: defining statuses regarding translation: untranslated / outdated / translating (in progress) / translated
- proposal: using jekyll layout for headers and generic 404.html page in suitable languages to inform about status and request help
- mockup of headers with jekyll layouts
- review of last update of Contributing.md
- Welcome text letter & Moodle
- to be discussed next time
Agenda Item 1 - using waffle.io and Mumble to triage and prioritize LearnOSM github issues
There was general agreement that waffle.io looked like a good tool and we should give it a try to prioritize LearnOSM's github issue list.
Tallguy suggested we could give the software and process a try out right after the meeting. Blake, althio, Canepa and Tallguy did give it a try out after the meeting using waffle.io and Mumble and we generally found it a good process for prioritizing issues. The only thing we didn't like was that waffle.io tended to only allow us to put one tag on an issue but it supports multiple tags placed on an issue via the GitHub web interface.
Agenda Item 2 - LearnOSM Contributing.md and the translation workflow
Tallguy updated the Contributing.md file to allow for a 3rd workflow option for translating LearnOSM web pages. The new workflow option is listed as Option A and is just a simple email workflow that has the github helper handle everything related to updating the main LearnOSM website and lets the translator just worry about translating the file they were sent.
There was extended discussion of workflow Option B, which is a little more GitHub involved for the translator.
There was also discussion of workflow Option C, the previously existing prose.io workflow detailed by Daniel Joseph from the American Red Cross. Emir has experience with this workflow and found it to work very well because the translator is working directly on the main LearnOSM repository. Emir also mentioned it is flexible because if the translator has experience with or is willing to learn a little GitHub, they can work on their own fork and make pull requests instead of working on the main repo.
We agreed to continue talking about the details of the actual workflows offered via the training wg email list and GitHub via issues or comments on pull requests.
Related to that discussion was a discussion of what to display on the web pages that need translation, pages that need updated translations or pages that are in the process of being translated.
The main issue was how can we easily let people know if a translated page is out of date and needs updating, how to let people know a page is in the process of being translated and how to let people know a page still needs translation. The general consensus was that a header at the top of the file could indicate a status of "needs updating" or "is being translated" but that we should use the 404.html error page to explain that a page has no translation and needs a translation.
We wanted to make sure the header for page status of "needs updating" and "is being translated" was in both English and the translation language the page was or is being translated to. Althio suggested that jekyll layout pages could be used.
Again, this item was tabled for further discussion to figure out the best way to achieve what we thought was the best option: 3 statuses, 2 indicated by header and the 3rd by the 404.html page.
At this point, I moved that we table the last two agenda items until the next meeting to allow us some time to try out waffle.io and Mumble for issue prioritization. No one objected so that is how we proceeded.
Agenda Item 3 - Welcome Letter text
This item was tabled until the next meeting, but Tallguy commented he was good with the text as is in anticipation he might not make the next meeting.
waffle.io and Mumble try out session
After the main meeting during the waffle.io and Mumble session there is no
transcript, but we figured out how we would use waffle.io to prioritize
issues and in the process we prioritized a few issues which can been seen in
the LearnOSM GitHut issue tracker:
Among the subset of the main meeting participants we sort of agreed that we would like to improve the navigation on the site to make it easier for people with different interest areas to find all the great info on the site. We specifically mentioned iD web editor users and export server users as two examples of interest groups that might have a hard time finding information important to them on the existing LearnOSM site.
We also agreed we were motivated to get github issues that were not being worked on yet prioritized as soon as possible so things could start getting worked on.
Toward that goal, we agreed we might individually prioritize a few items or make suggestions for priority. We agreed that none of the priorities we assigned are carved in stone, so if anyone is not happy with an issues' priority, they should just make a comment on the issue in github and it will be discussed again in a way that includes everyone the issue is important to and we will all come up with a priority everyone agrees with.
Items deferred until the next meeting
1. Welcome Letter text.
2. Moodle learning management system discussion.
16:06 BlakeGirardot: Well it looks like most of here for the meeting already know, but in case you don't have it handy, here is the agenda for todays Training WG meeting: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-December-22-2014-IiZc18f2Fwu
16:08 Canepa: Hello all! My name is Jessica, one of the HOT interns through the FOSS Outreach Program. I hope to “sit in” on this meeting.
16:08 BlakeGirardot: I am sure Clarie would be here if she could
16:08 BlakeGirardot: Hi Canepa!
16:09 BlakeGirardot: I am going to get started with the Training WG meeting if no one objects?
16:09 althio: Hi all
16:09 russdeffner: Helllo
16:09 Tallguy_Nick: Hi all
16:10 russdeffner: Blake, I see Claire is logged into the Hackpad, maybe just having tech difficulties with IRC; think it would be fine for you to get us started
16:11 * BlakeGirardot nods agreeably at russdeffner.
16:11 BlakeGirardot: I see the first item is the use of waffle.io for priortizing the issues related to LearnOSM
16:11 BlakeGirardot: Oh Claire is here now :)
16:12 clairedelune: Thank you for starting, please continue :) (I'm nearly there)
16:13 Tallguy_Nick: I've spent a few minutes looking at waffle.io & it appears perfect for our needs
16:13 BlakeGirardot: Yes, I have used it with the TechWG and it works quite well.
16:14 BlakeGirardot: It needs someone who has write permissions to the github repo to use it effectively
16:14 BlakeGirardot: as changes via the waffle.io interface are reflected on github
16:14 Tallguy_Nick: I'm willing to work on it with others
16:15 BlakeGirardot: I would suggest we practice once with just a couple of people to make sure we are fully comfortable with it
16:15 BlakeGirardot: And we also did make use of the voice Mumble server, but that is probably not required, just much faster.
16:15 BlakeGirardot: Canepa: are you comfortable with the waffle.io and mumble voice server?
16:16 Canepa: I’ve used Mumble once but it was successful. I feel somewhat comfortable with the waffle.io. It seems very user friendly.
16:16 Canepa: and they have good documentation too
16:17 BlakeGirardot: Ok, cool. I want to make sure we are working with you as much as possible so things we do are acceable to you and you are comfortable with how we interact.
16:17 althio: I guees the first sessions would as much sorting and labelling the issues (triage) than actually defining the rules and labels
16:19 althio: OR: the first sessions would be as much defining the rules and labels than actually sorting and labelling the issues (triage)
16:19 BlakeGirardot: I think the 2nd option, get some lables and agree how to categorize things.
16:19 Tallguy_Nick: Hopefully they would evolve as we work on it
16:20 althio: I mean it is expected that you will do a bit of both
16:21 BlakeGirardot: So if no one objects, can we schedule a time to do the initial testing of the waffle.io interface?
16:21 BlakeGirardot: Just to shake things out before
16:22 Tallguy_Nick: Can someone do a quick doodle poll? or do we want to try something after this meeting?
16:22 BlakeGirardot: Doodle sounds great, good idea.
16:23 BlakeGirardot: I'll make one. For the first week after Jan. 1 or earlier? Between Christmas and New Year? I don't expect it to take longer than 30 mins.
16:23 BlakeGirardot: Oh, or we can just do it after this meeting.
16:24 Tallguy_Nick: I can't do anything for the first 3 weeks of January
16:26 althio: IIs it only me or https://waffle.io/hotosm/learnosm is displaying the issues from osm-tasking-manager2?
16:26 Tallguy_Nick: there is an option to remove the tm2 issues - think they are temporarily there as an example
16:27 BlakeGirardot: Hehe, Yes, ok, thank you althio, that explains why there are so many issues and learnosm only has about 51
16:27 BlakeGirardot: Can someone just connect it up to the learnosm repo? I think github permissions will control who can make changes to it.
16:28 althio: ah much better ;) remove osm-tasking-manager2 from https://waffle.io/hotosm/learnosm/settings/sources
16:28 BlakeGirardot: tallguy, think you can squeeze in a triage session between christmas and new years?
16:29 Tallguy_Nick: I can - or something after this meeting?
16:29 BlakeGirardot: Actually I would pray for both. The real official triage between christmas and new year, and quick test right after this meeting.
16:29 BlakeGirardot: Canepa is sort of on a time schedule, her internship is only 3 months.
16:30 althio: BlakeGirardot:can you check everything looks alright for https://waffle.io/hotosm/learnosm now
16:30 BlakeGirardot: Of which 2 or 3 weeks is already passed.
16:30 BlakeGirardot: Nice, prefect.
16:31 Tallguy_Nick: I'm happy to join in where I can - if I'm not available, then use the system without me & I'll catch up when I can
16:31 althio: ready for triage session we are
16:31 BlakeGirardot: Lets table this to right after the meeting and move on, I don't think anyone objects to using it, which is what the agenda item is.
16:32 BlakeGirardot: Any last comments on waffle.io?
16:32 BlakeGirardot: It will of course be discussed on the email list and the next meeting I am sure.
16:33 althio: sure let us go ahead and have a real taste
16:34 BlakeGirardot: The next item is LearnOSM translation process
16:34 BlakeGirardot: And sort of Contributing.md as the official outline for the translation process.
16:35 BlakeGirardot: This is really Nick's area and althio's, have you guys worked out a final workflow yet or is it still in flux?
16:36 Tallguy_Nick: I updated it 2 days ago - latest verions is ready to go as far as I can see: https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/blob/gh-pages/CONTRIBUTING.md
16:36 althio: I have put my views and proposals in comments but I didn't push a lot in the actual file
16:36 emirhartato: hi all... sorry for being late
16:36 emirhartato: got stuck on the train for an hour
16:37 althio: reading the last version, I missed it
16:37 althio: hi emirhartato
16:37 Tallguy_Nick: hi emirhartato - chill.....
16:38 BlakeGirardot: Hi emir, agenda is here, we are on item 2: https://hackpad.com/Training-WG-Meeting-December-22-2014-IiZc18f2Fwu
16:38 BlakeGirardot: Item 1 we agreed it was a good idea to give waffle.io a try to proiortize issues on LearnOSM
16:38 emirhartato: got it
16:38 emirhartato: thanks blake
16:38 BlakeGirardot: And Canepa is with us today, she is an intern working on training materials for HOT.
16:39 Canepa: Hi Emir
16:40 BlakeGirardot: So, I see you added the email option for translation workflow, which is great, that should drop any barriers to anyone who wants to help translate.
16:40 althio: I like the simplicity of Option A for the translator, that is what I was aiming for. However there is the remaining work (done by us at LearnOSM and GitHub) that should be documented a bit more.
16:42 emirhartato: hi canepa
16:42 BlakeGirardot: I would still like to clarify the Option B steps some then
16:43 BlakeGirardot: But nick and althio, you feel like the basics of option B workflow are correct?
16:43 Tallguy_Nick: I think the basics are. If we expand the instructions too much I feel it will just confuse - It's up to us as the helpers to make it work
16:44 BlakeGirardot: Ok, well, I will make my pull request for my version of Contributing.md, including your changes and I feel pretty good it is an improvement without being too confusing and I'll let you decide how or if to merge it.
16:45 Tallguy_Nick: I thought your version had been merged?
16:45 BlakeGirardot: No, I never made a PR, just asked for feedback.
16:46 BlakeGirardot: But I need to change it in light of your comments anyway and the option A workflow
16:46 althio: I would say _most_ steps are actually the same in A&B, only parts that differ are the 4-5-6 steps where you can have a translator proficient with github or just your regular guy more comfortable with emails.
16:46 BlakeGirardot: Make sure it is not overly confusing.
16:47 BlakeGirardot: For me one of the major issues with the existing contributing.md is it assumes way to much about what you know. coming to it as someone who had no idea how github worked it found it very confusing.
16:47 althio: If you agree with this, maybe we should 'factorise' the common steps between A&B
16:48 althio: oh BlakeGirardot I totally agree with the statement about originally confusing instructions
16:49 BlakeGirardot: So I feel like Nick and althio have a much better understanding of the workflow now that they have write premissions to the github repo
16:50 Tallguy_Nick: Of all the options, I am happiest with A - I think the rest are difficult unless you are familiar with github
16:50 BlakeGirardot: I agree
16:50 BlakeGirardot: And I bet almost everyone who would like to contribute will use A
16:51 BlakeGirardot: But if B and C are there, we might as well make them clearer if possible and then we all just do A :)
16:52 Tallguy_Nick: The site linked to - American Red Cross, explains it better if I remember correctly
16:53 Canepa: It would be nice to have subheaders for the Options like “Option A: Email text file”
16:53 Tallguy_Nick: Canepa, you are right
16:54 Canepa: I like the workflow for translators from the American Red Cross Guide written by Daniel Joseph https://github.com/AmericanRedCross/Guides/blob/master/TranslationWorkflow_LearnOSM/translatorWorkflow.md
16:54 Tallguy_Nick: Option C should be in the heading, and I should have made A & B headings - realised this morning!
16:56 BlakeGirardot: I agree Canepa, he did a really nice job with those.
16:56 BlakeGirardot: The only issue is that it still requries a translator to use github
16:58 BlakeGirardot: But it is well done and thurough (am a bad speller)
16:58 BlakeGirardot: The last item reltaed to contributing.md is the headers issue, that I don't know at all, althio?
16:59 althio: It was discussed a bit on existing issues and with jeff on the list (firstname.lastname@example.org?)
16:59 BlakeGirardot: Is it worked out?
16:59 althio: anyway I put a link in the agenda
17:00 althio: to the current state of my work on this
17:00 emirhartato: @blake IMO, prose is easy, i believe the translator doesn't need to clone github repo, as they work directly into main repo (HOTOSM)
17:00 althio: still a proposal and requesting for feedback
17:01 BlakeGirardot: Interesting emir, it looks like a good method to me too.
17:01 BlakeGirardot: How do you feel about it Nick? The only thing I take notice of is it requres write permissions be given to the translator.
17:02 Tallguy_Nick: They become a contributor so can carry out a number of actions - but is that a problem?
17:02 BlakeGirardot: emir, when you used it was it with people you already worked with? I think here we are going to get "drive by" people who just want to drop in a translation and move on.
17:03 BlakeGirardot: It is not a problem for me at all, I ask you because you know more about what being able to write to the repo means than I do. I am afraid of write permissions to any repo's but my onw.
17:03 BlakeGirardot: own*
17:04 Tallguy_Nick: There is the potential to do just about anything - but the same can be said for althio and I
17:05 BlakeGirardot: So I think the order of preference would be Option C if they can do it, uses much less github helper time, Option A because then github helper can just make sure it gets done right, and Option B as it will take some learning/hand holding.
17:05 emirhartato: @blake well there are 2 options. for those who don't understand cloning stuff (working on the clone repo), they can work directly to the main repo
17:06 emirhartato: for those who more advance they can work with prose within their clone
17:07 althio: if they do not have write access but they are skilled githubber, no need for a gitbuh helper. They can propose a pull request and it is an easy work for someone with write access to merge their work.
17:07 BlakeGirardot: I see. Yes, I think ideally, prose.io is a great workflow and should be our first option if it is possible. I would sort of leave that up to althio, nick, jeff to decide.
17:09 emirhartato: or what about this? we create a generic github account, and this generic github has learnosm clone. the translator can work on translation using that clone. and we would maintain for regular pull request and synchronizing the repo to keep up to date
17:10 BlakeGirardot: Also a very good idea, and also fits in with althio's(?) suggestion of a "learnosm staging" site.
17:11 Tallguy_Nick: it still needs someone to copy the file into the folder, merge pull request so it is available in the cloned repo
17:11 emirhartato: I think it's okay to share a github account
17:11 althio: i am not an expert enough to tell the merits of the synchronised clone for translation works
17:11 BlakeGirardot: So lets make another round of changes to contributing.md and see where that puts us. that will also give althio, nick and jeff another month of experience with getting things translated.
17:12 BlakeGirardot: to help them get cool with workflow related issues.
17:12 althio: we need of triage also with translation
17:13 Tallguy_Nick: I would like to start Michael63 off with the German translating he offered - leave it too long & we could lose him
17:13 BlakeGirardot: I agree 100%
17:13 BlakeGirardot: with nick's last comment
17:13 clairedelune: so do I
17:13 althio: triage: with people responsible for marking new file, out-of-date translations, work in progress
17:13 clairedelune: (sorry, work meeting took longer than expected)
17:14 BlakeGirardot: Are you going with Workflow A for Michael63?
17:14 althio: oh yes go ahead with Michael63 we need a case to see how it folds
17:14 Tallguy_Nick: I'd like to email him the file & give him the choice
17:14 BlakeGirardot: Perfect
17:15 BlakeGirardot: I am going to move on to the next item, I feel like we made good progress on this one, with some more progress to be made, but I got a lot out of this
17:15 BlakeGirardot: I will make sure to sumerize it in the meeting minutes, which I will take care of for today's meeting.
17:15 BlakeGirardot: and the log/transcript Claire.
17:16 BlakeGirardot: and I'll spell check them when i am done :)
17:16 BlakeGirardot: Again, this item will be picked up via email and the next meeting, but before we move on, does anyhone have any comments on it before we get to the next item?
17:17 emirhartato: i'm good
17:17 Tallguy_Nick: althio's work on the headers
17:17 BlakeGirardot: Aye, ok. Let me read that issue fully quickly.
17:18 BlakeGirardot: That is this issue: https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/issues/252#issuecomment-67847450 correct?
17:19 althio: let me repeat and expand:
17:19 althio: Headers: It was discussed a bit on existing issues and with jeff on the list (email@example.com?)
17:19 althio: link in the agenda to the current state of my work on this
17:19 althio: https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/issues/252#issuecomment-67847450
17:19 althio: I added new layouts specific for each stage of translation.
17:19 althio: I added a few strings in config.yml for generic messages about translation.
17:19 althio: Still a proposal and requesting for feedback.
17:22 althio: (sorry this is full of French as the barbaric language, hope you don't mind) ;)
17:22 BlakeGirardot: Ok, I want to simplify this althio
17:22 BlakeGirardot: From your comment, there are 3 "statuses" for a page
17:22 BlakeGirardot: 1. English only, needs translation
17:23 BlakeGirardot: 2. Translated, but out of date
17:23 BlakeGirardot: 3. Up-to-date translation in progress.
17:24 BlakeGirardot: Is that right?
17:24 althio: yes you are right
17:24 BlakeGirardot: Ok, and then there is jeff's suggestion that we should basically fill out every possible page with the english version
17:25 Tallguy_Nick: I agree for 2 & 3, but for stage 1, rather than continually creating files in english, could we not amend this file: https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/blob/gh-pages/404.html
17:25 BlakeGirardot: And the header that indicates #1 from the list.
17:25 BlakeGirardot: Ya, I think you are right nick
17:25 BlakeGirardot: I think pre-populating makes more work
17:26 BlakeGirardot: because then we have to worry if the pre-populated page falls into the #2 category above.
17:26 BlakeGirardot: except, it would literally be a new category, not translateed and not up to date
17:26 * BlakeGirardot shudders.
17:26 althio: would it?
17:27 BlakeGirardot: Ya, it would
17:27 clairedelune: (training WG people, you rock! am sorry for not being more available today, will be back checking the minutes in an hour or two, all the best for the rest of the meeting)
17:27 BlakeGirardot: np, we are glad to take some of the load claire
17:27 althio: not translated is just that, not translated, I don't get it?
17:28 BlakeGirardot: Oh we are talking about jeff's suggestion to pre-populated untranslated pages with the english version and the #1 header and nick is suggesting we use a much improved 404.html instead.
17:28 althio: well basically 404 could use the #1 header
17:29 BlakeGirardot: So I think we agree with your 3 suggested headers and someone's suggestion to the much improved 404.html
17:30 BlakeGirardot: I see you last comment althio, so there is also a somewhat seperate issue on how to technically impliment the use of your 3 suggested headers. And you are saying you can do it somewhat easily with 3 different layout documents.
17:31 BlakeGirardot: My only question on that, is, how hard is it to change the headers using the layouts once a page has been properly translated.
17:31 BlakeGirardot: Meeting Note: I added the last two agenda items, and I move we table them to the next meeting.
17:32 althio: if this works it is easy work for us, instead of copy/paste a suitable header in the suitable language, we modify 1 or 2 lines in the front matter of *.md
17:33 althio: makes sense?
17:33 Tallguy_Nick: althio - I am happy with what you are saying for the in translation files
17:33 Tallguy_Nick: would we need a different header for each language?
17:34 althio: I think it would be optimal with different header yes
17:34 althio: different header for each language
17:36 althio: if a potential translator sees a not-translated page, he knows he can help ; if someone who cannot read english sees a not-translated page, he can read in his own language the status
17:36 BlakeGirardot: different header or could 1 header have 3 or 4 translations of the header?
17:36 BlakeGirardot: different header or could 1 header have 3 or 4 translations of the header text?
17:36 BlakeGirardot: or more
17:37 BlakeGirardot: Like the 404 page has multiple languages on it, I was thinking the needs translation header #1 would be in multiple languages, just one header. is that possible?
17:37 althio: I was thinking of prepopulated files with 2 languages: english and target language
17:38 althio: 404 with all languages is also possible, but maybe messy
17:38 emirhartato: keeping the translation up to date might be a bit rough
17:38 BlakeGirardot: interesting.
17:39 BlakeGirardot: I think the "this page needs translation" header text would be pretty static
17:40 althio: emirhartato: indeed but step1 is translation triage, we need to mark the work to be done
17:40 emirhartato: oh if it's static then should be okay i guess
17:41 althio: alright we were maybe not on the same exact subject here
17:44 althio: thanks for the feedback and ideas I will continue, try to squash and propose something later
17:44 BlakeGirardot: It is possible.
17:45 BlakeGirardot: I think we are all on the same page basically.
17:45 BlakeGirardot: So as I mentioned, I move we table the remaining items until the next meeting and we call this one to a close
17:46 Tallguy_Nick: ok - I will probably miss the next one - not sure if I will have internet access - I'm happy with the letter
17:47 althio: very well
17:47 althio: thank you everyone
17:47 BlakeGirardot: Ok, anyone still up for looking at waffle.io?
17:47 Tallguy_Nick: I'm ready to waffle
17:47 BlakeGirardot: yes, thank everyone for being here and participating, it was really helpful to me, I hope others as well.
17:48 BlakeGirardot: Are you going to join the mumble server nick?
17:48 Tallguy_Nick: I can try - Ive setup my laptop but not tested it.
17:48 BlakeGirardot: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mumble
17:48 BlakeGirardot: short version is
17:48 BlakeGirardot: talk.hotosm.org
17:49 emirhartato: I'm going to sleep. almost midnight here :)
17:49 emirhartato: thanks all. bye.
17:49 russdeffner: I have to get to work, sorry
17:49 BlakeGirardot: np, thank you for sitting in russ
17:49 althio: bye
17:49 BlakeGirardot: And emir, thank you too, really helpful to have someone with experience with prose.io and translations
17:49 russdeffner: No problem, thanks for leading
17:53 BlakeGirardot: Here is the waffle.io board we are looking at
17:53 BlakeGirardot: https://waffle.io/hotosm/learnosm