Humanitarian OSM Team/Meetings/TrainingWG/22 June 2015

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IRC Logs

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14:31:59 <TomT5454> HOT Training WG meeting. Agenda is at
14:32:12 <SteveBower> hi Tom
14:32:41 <TomT5454> Hi, Steve. I see Russell is also on, and Althio
14:33:21 <althio> hi all!
14:33:34 <russdeffner> hello everyone
14:33:35 <BlakeGirardot_> Hi
14:33:37 <Tyler_Radford> Hello all
14:33:47 <TomT5454> Hi, folks.
14:33:57 <althio> +1 for bürgeerr
14:34:00 <TomT5454> Ralph
14:34:30 <RAytoun> Hello to all
14:34:37 <TomT5454> OK, shall we look at the June 8 minutes?
14:35:39 <TomT5454> Any comments on the minutes?
14:36:55 <TomT5454> I'll mark them as accepted.
14:37:02 <SteveBower> looks good to me
14:37:40 <RAytoun> Looks good to me too
14:38:11 <TomT5454> Actions out of the minutes. I can remember one item from May 25: Blake was going to write some textr. But maybe that has been overtaken by events.
14:39:24 <TomT5454> Althio, before we go further and because your time is very limited, is there anything specific you want to bring up?
14:39:54 <althio> not precisely, thanks
14:40:22 <althio> i have not filled up the agenda this time
14:40:28 <TomT5454> OK, let's go on to the report of the vision team.
14:40:43 <SteveBower> OK, I can speak to that
14:40:46 <althio> I would though to keep track with the vision team and internship :)
14:41:12 <TomT5454> Hi, Claire. So far we've agreed the minutes, and just about to get into substance.
14:41:22 <TomT5454> Go ahead, Steve
14:41:27 <althio> please do SteveBower, all ears
14:41:41 <SteveBower> I've sent a few emails just to the vision team (will add you, althio) - but probably should just cc the training group at this point, if all agree
14:42:05 <RAytoun> Agree
14:42:06 <TomT5454> Seems reasonable
14:42:28 <SteveBower> I had created a draft vision doc a couple weeks ago:
14:42:56 <SteveBower> But have had no comments on it, I think, except from Ralph
14:43:29 <SteveBower> I've added a bit to it based on emails, but bottom line is that we've had some minimal discussion, but no firm buy-in on the scope and process
14:43:53 <clairedelune> (Thanks TomT5454, sorry for being late, seems I'm facing some spotty connection)
14:44:31 <SteveBower> That is, people haven't responded one way or the other as to the scope - but I expect the team & training WG are on board that the scope is to come up with a re-organization of LearnOSM material
14:44:50 <SteveBower> Still, it would be great for folks to weigh in on that, to make sure we're all on the same page
14:45:34 <BlakeGirardot_> How does that document fit into the idea that we should re-do learnosm from scratch?
14:45:50 <BlakeGirardot_> If I understand that correctly
14:45:51 <TomT5454> Yes, that is a good start, but I suspect we have to get a bit more specific before we're finished
14:45:54 <SteveBower> I have hesitated to plow forward with that in part due to Anwar's parallel work (internship) - want to be sure we're coordinated with that
14:46:26 <RAytoun> Suzan has proposed a complete reorganisation of the LearnOSM website and has been working on how to do it and involve us in the process.
14:46:39 <SteveBower> I had envisioned not a complete re-do, rather some shuffling but keeping w/in the current structure
14:46:56 <BlakeGirardot_> I whole heartedly support that SteveBower
14:47:28 <SteveBower> But I'm open to a more thorough re-do, as Suzan has suggested
14:47:30 <BlakeGirardot_> Organization and navigation are the two biggest issues, but the content seems quite good.
14:47:49 <TomT5454> OK, we're going to have to thrash that out. Suzan's reference to a project of 5000 pages is definitely intimidating
14:48:04 <BlakeGirardot_> I am reluctant to support a re-do, we have something that is 90% of the way there and just needs some organizing
14:48:10 <russdeffner> I would also suggest keeping a 'different' look and feel than other HOT websites; as discussed LearnOSM is more about OSM and less about HOT
14:48:14 <TomT5454> How big is LearnOSM any idea?
14:48:35 <SteveBower> For a more thorough re-do, I think we need to make sure we're addressing the right audiences: HOT vs non-HOT, etc.
14:49:00 <SteveBower> @Tom, the draft vision doc has a table of Guides and Modules (e.g., Beginner's Guide has ~10 modules)
14:49:48 <RAytoun> The vision is dependent on us either concentrating on HOT or LearnOSM.
14:49:55 <TomT5454> The need to tailor to different audiences is perhaps a motivator to break things into small modules for greater flexibility
14:50:45 <althio> TomT5454, How big is LearnOSM any idea? About 60-70 pages in English?
14:51:07 <TomT5454> Claire, is there a broader OSMF group we have to coordinate with on LearnOSM?
14:51:57 <TomT5454> Althio: that's the question I asked :)
14:52:04 <SteveBower> The Training WG Wiki includes a list of 6 target audiences. I would suggest we review/revise that list as part of the vision work.
14:52:06 <clairedelune> There's the LearnOSM-coord list
14:52:31 <SteveBower> @claire, where's that list?
14:52:38 <TomT5454> Ah, I wondered what that list was for, but now I realize the distinction.
14:52:42 <SteveBower> oh - never mind - email list
14:52:51 <clairedelune> But most active members are part of the training WG (yes, mailing list)
14:52:55 <althio> I am all for small modules and paths and guided tours, almost same content but reorganised/restructured
14:53:11 <althio> TomT5454, that's my tentative answer :)
14:53:15 <russdeffner> TomT5454 - LearnOSM is under the 'ownership' of us; of course we want to include more people from the OSM community, but OSMF does not have much involvement
14:53:22 <clairedelune> Agreed with Althio, really like the restructuration side
14:54:25 <TomT5454> Seems to me next step may be to try to create the map we'd like to achieve.
14:54:26 <RAytoun> I am also with Althio on the restructure
14:54:45 <SteveBower> I suggest we target LearnOSM to broader OSM community, not HOT-focused, and re-org with that in mind. We would not have to develop new material right away, but could plan for it..
14:55:10 <JayGee> FYI --this is John Gordon--I've joined but am just lurking to get a feel for how this works--ignore me
14:55:36 <SteveBower> @Tom - yes, I agree. I could draft a mapping, taking the group's comments into considerationl, as long as folks agree on that process.
14:55:38 <TomT5454> What we should start with is a list of topics. We can all contribute, then sort them out into hierarchies and who they would be addressed to and so on.
14:55:51 <RAytoun> Once LearnOSM is reorganised we can cherry-pick for HOT and tailor to HOT requirements
14:55:52 <althio> SteveBower: yes, with a good structure, we might even spot some gaps/holes and flag them.
14:56:01 <clairedelune> And actually usual OSM mapping is streetmapping (with phones/GPS/fieldpapers), we should describe the armchair mapping as the "remote mapping" not as the usual one IMO.
14:56:19 <TomT5454> Steve, this would be a group-editable document, starting out really rough.
14:56:19 <SteveBower> @Tom - that list could start with existing modules, plus new material - that was my intention with the table at bottom of draft vision doc
14:56:48 <russdeffner> this is good blog post to understand origin/mission/partners around LearnOSM:
14:57:24 <clairedelune> @SteveBower, have you listed all modules yet? or should we check them all again?
14:57:51 <althio> (hello JayGee, good to see there, lurking)
14:58:28 <SteveBower> The "topics" document (for sorting/categorizing) could be in a Google doc or Google spreadsheet - any preference or other suggestions?
14:58:52 <TomT5454> Google doc. We need to be freeform to start with.
14:58:59 <althio> clairedelune, about pages/modules: Nick has them all on Learnosm_site_audit
14:59:07 <althio>
14:59:18 <TomT5454> Lovely
14:59:23 <clairedelune> Thanks althio
14:59:56 <SteveBower> @althio - Yes, Nick's spreadsheet is referenced in the draft vision doc, and I had suggested using it as the organizing tool - but got no responses on that
15:00:07 <althio> 2nd, tidying status
15:00:59 <SteveBower> There are a few pros and cons to "doc" vs "spreadsheet", but I'm agnostic
15:01:48 <clairedelune> I'd be more for a spreadsheet (but could also work with a doc if needed) 15:01:53 <TomT5454> Steve: I'm proposing a separate document where we do our topic list, because we may want to get more atomic before we finally put everything together
15:02:17 <SteveBower> OK, I agree, separate document focused on this task
15:02:26 <SteveBower> Referenced from the vision doc
15:03:16 <althio> ok, i am partial to project management, but what about a tracker for issues/actions specific for Training WG / LearnOSM reorganisation? (github / trello / whatever)
15:03:49 <RAytoun> Hyperlinks are always useful and timesaving
15:03:52 <TomT5454> I can set one up.
15:04:00 <clairedelune> I'd love to see a Trello for the Training WG, but this might require a premium version...
15:04:21 <TomT5454> We were also going to have an ideas page
15:04:39 <althio> what's the limitation of standard trello clairedelune?
15:04:41 <SteveBower> The spreadsheet "topic" list can include a notes column for topic/module/guide-specific comments
15:04:58 <russdeffner> clairedelune - do we not have premium for HOT?
15:05:05 <TomT5454> How much of a learning curve? I'll pay for it if it's worth it
15:05:06 <russdeffner> If not, maybe something Tyler can look at
15:05:40 <russdeffner> lot's of folks donate their software for non-profit use
15:06:06 <SteveBower> FYI :
15:07:07 <althio> i am not sure we need the paying features
15:07:24 <TomT5454> OK, I think we have "next steps". Probably need to divide the modules amongst ourselves to pick out the topics.
15:07:27 <RAytoun> Missing Maps already uses Trello quite well
15:07:35 <TomT5454> We could do that by E-mail
15:08:22 <TomT5454> Do we want to move on to how to interact with the broader community?
15:08:32 <BlakeGirardot_> I am not sure we have permissions to see that trello board RAytoun
15:09:19 <BlakeGirardot_> fyi, american red cross and missing maps both use the free version of trello
15:09:23 <althio> I think MissingMaps has premium, and than is certainly able to put permissions
15:09:25 <clairedelune> I am part of the Missing Maps trello board and it works quite well.
15:09:42 <SteveBower> Before we move any, any concerns about coordinating with Anwar/intern work on LearnOSM re-org? I've been counting on Nick (his mentor) to assure that. Anything else we should do?
15:09:59 <SteveBower> I recommended to Anwar that he join the training WG (cc'd Nick)
15:10:42 <SteveBower> It seems to me that we're usurping his project
15:10:45 <althio> SteveBower, I am co-mentor with Nick, and I agree Anwar should join the training WG and vision team
15:11:00 <russdeffner> oh, bit of side note; to answer your email SteveBower - the Activation Role Modules are what I'm working on for this:
15:11:03 <althio> communication is not efficient right now
15:11:06 <SteveBower> He is on the vision team - but the only one who's not on the Training WG list
15:11:17 <clairedelune> ok thanks BlakeGirardot_, then we could make it with the free version too probably. I think that initially only a limited number of boards could be created (or limitation in members number) with the free one, but I could create one for the training WG is it's ok for all of you.
15:11:57 <althio> clairedelune, "Trello is free! Yes, really! You can create as many boards and add as many people as you want with your free account."
15:12:43 <russdeffner> Current project schedule puts me building the modules starting mid-July
15:12:55 <clairedelune> (I'm not sure that was the case when they launched it but I believe you ^^)
15:13:00 <TomT5454> OK, I haven't a clue what it is. I was raised on things like critical path and Gantt charts. Are we talking that?
15:13:27 <SteveBower> @russell - you mean the Activator modules? Or others?
15:13:28 <althio> TomT5454, this prokect management, but on the Agile / Kanban side
15:13:55 <BlakeGirardot_>
15:14:00 <russdeffner> Yes, the activator modules
15:14:08 <althio> no Gantt for sure! ;)
15:14:14 <Stalfur> OpenProjects is more of what you know TomT5454, Gantt charts etc
15:16:53 <TomT5454> Coordination with Anwar will be an ongoing process, I think. We have to get the lines of communication open to start with.
15:17:43 <SteveBower> Absent further discussion/input, I will assume (1) it's ok for us to plow ahead with the LearnOSM re-org, (2) Nick & althio will coordinate with Anwar to integrate his input, (3) I will draft a spreadsheet for organizing topics and mapping to existing material, for group review
15:17:46 <TomT5454> OK, do we want to look forward to community involvement, or have we done enough for today?
15:18:12 <SteveBower> yes on broader community involvement - when/who
15:18:16 <althio> yes, we do!
15:18:39 <TomT5454> I guess the starting point is OSM-Talk
15:19:13 <TomT5454> We probably need to discuss this with the Communications WG
15:19:39 <althio> I know some people are not closely following all our channel, but would love to get notified of new projets, request for comments, surveys...
15:19:56 <TomT5454> The when is perhaps when we have a starting point for comment
15:20:26 <TomT5454> But maybe an announcement right now that this work is in progress might not hurt
15:21:26 <SteveBower> Maybe the first step is to reach out to OSM Communications WG, let them know we're doing this, and ask them how they'd like us to communicate to broader OSM community
15:22:10 <TomT5454> Claire, who is the appropriate contact there?
15:22:33 <althio> Communitions WG is Kristen, Blake, ...
15:23:03 <SteveBower> OSM Communications WG : 15:23:31 <althio> my bad, I was with HOT Comm WG
15:24:13 <SteveBower> Their wiki page notes : You can get in touch with the whole team at:
15:24:36 <TomT5454> Thanks, Steve
15:24:36 <mkl> +1 for trello to organize LearnOSM re-org, y'all
15:24:56 <SteveBower> Perhaps one of us could offer to attend one of their Monday meetings, to fill them in
15:25:17 <althio> mkl, Trello FTW :))
15:25:50 <RAytoun> I am also fine with Trello
15:26:23 <TomT5454> I might be able to do that, depending on the time. I have a 2+ hour date with a blood machine starting at 8am my time
15:26:26 <SteveBower> hmmm ... the last minutes for the OSM Comm WG were in January
15:26:44 <SteveBower> @Tom - could you make contact with them then?
15:26:47 <TomT5454> Oops. Good intentions but lost energy
15:27:03 <TomT5454> That's an action for me
15:27:27 <althio> we have Harry Wood and Kate Chapman there
15:28:11 <TomT5454> Harry: are you there in person?
15:28:51 <althio> ping harry-wood1 ^^
15:28:53 <Tyler_Radford> I'm also in Comms WG meetings and can add this to agenda
15:28:57 <TomT5454> Oh, well, I'll get in touch by E-mail
15:29:15 <harry-wood1> hmm?
15:29:17 <althio> Tyler_Radford, HOT comms or OSMF comms?
15:30:05 <althio> hi harry-wood1, is OSMF comms WG having a meeting soon?
15:30:15 <Tyler_Radford> Sorry HOT not OSMF, my fault
15:30:33 <harry-wood1> no. We should… but no
15:30:39 <TomT5454> We're wondering if the Comms WG has an interest in how we publicize our work on reorganizing LearnOSM
15:30:57 <althio> alright TomT5454 we better off with E-mail then
15:31:26 <TomT5454> E-mail it will be.
15:31:42 <clairedelune> Anyone with a Trello account, feel free to join HOT and the Training WG board:, then we can start adding cards
15:32:22 <Tyler_Radford> TomT5454 and althio I'm not sure if we are following agenda items for this meeting, but I'm hoping we could discuss translation of materials at the appropriate time
15:32:23 <TomT5454> Actions are to set up the topic spreadsheet |(Steve), get in touch with the OSMF Comms WG (me). Others?
15:32:42 <clairedelune> This board would be for all training WG projects I'd say, but a tag can be created specific for LearnOSM restructuration
15:32:57 <althio> easier without the trailing comma
15:33:01 <TomT5454> OK, this is a good point to do that
15:33:13 <SteveBower> Thanks, Claire. Agree, start with LearnOSM re-structuring.
15:33:22 <althio> but clairedelune it may be private
15:34:55 <Tyler_Radford> JayGee joined us today, he has offered to coordinate additional volunteers from the UN Volunteers programme with a variety of language skills
15:35:20 <Tyler_Radford> It may be helpful for him to get an update from the group on translation needs, and where this fits in with the LearnOSM re-org work
15:35:23 <clairedelune> Anyone should be able to join HOTOSM on Trello and if you are part of it, you should see the Training WG board. If there are issues, I can simply make the board public
15:35:48 <BlakeGirardot_> ya, I don't see the board, it is just blank page
15:35:56 <SteveBower> @claire - the new board does seem to be private. I can't find it searching for "training"
15:36:29 <althio> clairedelune, we cannot join HOTOSM as org, it is the other way, by invite
15:36:50 <althio> I vote for public anyway
15:36:51 <RAytoun> Because it is private you have to invite people in
15:37:06 <TomT5454> Sorry, Tyler, better let them get this done
15:37:10 <althio> sorry Tyler_Radford ;)
15:37:41 <althio> and JayGee :)
15:37:55 <Tyler_Radford> No problem
15:37:58 <clairedelune> The board is now public (the org should have been anyway but that's okay, will check that later).
15:38:16 <RAytoun> OK that works
15:38:30 <SteveBower> Yep, that works - thx
15:38:50 <TomT5454> I'll tAke the tour and get onto it later
15:40:16 <althio> Let us move to translation needs TomT5454 Tyler_Radford JayGee
15:40:41 <TomT5454> Go ahead, Tyler
15:41:23 <russdeffner> Sorry, need to shift gears myself but just want to 'confirm' next meeting time - I changed today's on the calendar, but not the 'repeats'
15:42:06 <TomT5454> Basically I assume we have a pile of text. Do we have priorities on languages?
15:42:09 <Tyler_Radford> Thanks - just hoping to get an update from group on current LearnOSM translation needs, process, and how it fits in with LearnOSM re-org.
15:42:32 <Tyler_Radford> If we have new translation volunteers join - what are the needs and how can we best coordinate their work
15:42:47 <BlakeGirardot_> Hi JayGee, welcome, sorry I missed you saying hello earlier.
15:42:59 <TomT5454> Next meeting time 1800? 6 July
15:43:45 <althio> I would welcome a better workflow/process, if it is possible soon, before we ask for more translators outside.
15:43:49 <clairedelune> Tallguy's LearnOSM audit shows well which languages/pages miss translations, priorities could be set based on this
15:45:02 <SteveBower> It seems that with a re-org, some or many existing modules may be revised, so translations would need the same - maybe best to wait till we know which modules will change
15:45:09 <BlakeGirardot_> Yes, we are in a bit of transition and I am not sure what we agreed upon as the best workflow for translations at the moment.
15:45:40 <althio> Also with a re-org, we could possibly end up with many broken down modules, so no much translation work, but still need fluent people to repeat the re-org in other languages
15:45:40 <TomT54541> IRC died for two minutes for me
15:45:43 <BlakeGirardot_> But there is a translation need for our software products that we use transifex for I am pretty sure.
15:46:17 <TomT54541> Isn't that the Mapgive project?
15:46:29 <BlakeGirardot_> Which will probably also be increaseing as the export server gets redeveloped and changes to the Tasking Manager happen.
15:47:20 <mkl> TomT54541: What are you referring to as a MapGive project??
15:47:46 <clairedelune> Yes BlakeGirardot_ this (softwares translation) could be more urgent
15:48:12 <TomT54541> Have to go back to the May 25 minutes
15:48:32 <russdeffner> @Tom - currently the calendar says next one is 1600 UTC but that may just have been bad timezone math on my part
15:48:38 <BlakeGirardot_> It is something to think about if people are motivated while we firm up something LearnOSM related.
15:48:54 <JayGee> We are just at the initial stages of setting up something with UNV-- initially I think we will be looking for some very short and relatively simple translations from English to French or Spanish to develop some management procedures. I will follow up later.
15:48:55 <Tyler_Radford> clairedelune yes it seems some parts from Tallguy's LearnOSM audit are marked "green" ready for translation
15:49:01 <althio> indeed BlakeGirardot_... So a/ Translators for our many projects (software, mapgive videos...), b/ Translation experts to refine the tools and processes for LearnOSM, c/ Translation for LearnOSM re-org
15:49:07 <Tyler_Radford> But I agree - if things are in flux - we could focus on software products first
15:49:15 <russdeffner> I'll change to 1800UTC and just email me or post in the notes and I'll update if necessary
15:49:39 <TomT54541> @Russell I was going by the original scheduling for the WG
15:50:01 <TomT54541> Other people may have a comment
15:50:47 <russdeffner> ok, so by original schedule next is 1800 UTC on 6 July, then 0800 on 20 July
15:51:23 <russdeffner> unless we have 'decided' to ditch the 0800 for this time (1430)
15:51:56 <TomT54541> I took this time as a compromise in schedules.
15:52:09 <TomT54541> Ad hoc, in other words
15:52:41 <TomT54541> It just seemed a bit silly for Steve and me to get up at 4am to meet
15:53:19 <TomT54541> ... unless we had a few more participants
15:53:21 <russdeffner> yes, definitely the folks 'chairing' the meetings should have a 'greater' say
15:54:00 <SteveBower> Who do we have participating that benefits from 0800 UTC (4am US Eastern) time?
15:54:20 <TomT54541> The basic intention has to be to give everyone a reasonable chance to participate, and at the same time, have a decent number of attendees
15:55:01 <althio> 0800 UTC is for Indonesia and other in SE Asia
15:55:41 <TomT54541> Heather Leson was on from Australia on May 25. Beijing time is 12 hours from EDT. Japan. Maybe Indonesia the most likely source
15:56:11 <clairedelune> Emir and some others in Indonesia and Japan have been participating quite a few times
15:56:37 <althio> Emir, Mhairi, Adityo, ...
15:57:51 <TomT54541> OK, maybe the 0800 time can be reinstated and the fault was mine for not sending out a reminder for May 25. (Guess Heather was in the May 11 meeting)
15:58:35 <TomT54541> But I got no responses from them last time around 16:00:47 <althio> TomT54541, no problem you did well by asking
16:01:08 <TomT54541> Maybe I should send out an announcement with an RSVP. If no responses for 0800 we can reconsider. That's 4 weeks down the line, July 20.
16:02:04 <RAytoun> That sounds fair enough
16:02:17 <TomT54541> Shall we adjourn?
16:03:04 <althio> any more thoughts on translation needs and objectives?
16:03:05 <TomT54541> Thanks everyone
16:03:41 <althio> Tyler_Radford, JayGee, BlakeGirardot_ clairedelune?
16:04:11 <BlakeGirardot_> I am all set, thank you for asking
16:04:14 <althio> note: I still have to make a connection with Translators Without Borders
16:04:25 <BlakeGirardot_> And thank everyone for attending.
16:05:19 <Tyler_Radford> Thanks - my take away is that we will not proceed on LearnOSM training with new volunteers for now, but check in at the next meeting
16:05:40 <SteveBower> Thanks everyone
16:06:33 <althio> Good, thanks everyone!
16:06:43 <russdeffner> @althio - do you have one, or need? (connection to T w/o B)
16:07:17 <althio> I have one, few short exchanges, no in-depth
16:07:50 <russdeffner> I think it was Kate that put me in contact with one for Mongolian but can 'work back-up that chain' if it would help?
16:08:18 <clairedelune> Thank you TomT54541 for chairing, best wishes to everyone
16:08:49 <Tyler_Radford> Thank you and take care all
16:09:30 <TomT54541> Bye