Humanitarian OSM Team/Working groups/Technical/meeting 2014-08-11

Meeting to discuss Tech topics on Monday 11th August 2014

IRC log:

dodobas	pierregiraud: would you like to start... OSMTM2 ?	17:02
pierregiraud	OK	17:02
harry-wood	hi all	17:02
skorasaurus	hi	17:02
ptressel	o/	17:02
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pierregiraud	so since WG meeting the V2 has been deployed on production	17:02
pierregiraud	with V1 data migration	17:03
pierregiraud	it went more or less well	17:03
pierregiraud	but we finally got there	17:03
ptressel	\o/	17:03
pierregiraud	thanks to the help from dodobas	17:03
pierregiraud	I then continued on integrating new features asked by people who contracted with HOT and camptocamp	17:04
dodobas	it's kinda my job, you know :)	17:04
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pierregiraud	there were several releases from then	17:04
pierregiraud	https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/releases	17:04
pierregiraud	with a lot of new features and bug fixes	17:04
pierregiraud	I suppose everyone here know about this	17:05
harry-wood	Well done everyone involved in that!	17:05
pierregiraud	we had a critical issue last week but this seems to be fixed now	17:06
pierregiraud	anyone have questions about the new features or fixed bugs?	17:06
dodobas	for everyone who wants to follow or add something ... this is the agenda... https://hackpad.com/TWG-Meeting-X14-Tentative-Agenda-tWKdrLid5OU	17:07
pierregiraud	if not I have some specific issues I would like to discuss a bit with you	17:07
dodobas	it's an unordered list, if you were wondering :)	17:07
pierregiraud	https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/184	17:07
pierregiraud	this issue is about osm users, their names and ids	17:08
pierregiraud	in V1, the issue was that only the username was stored in the TM’s DB	17:08
pierregiraud	when the user changed its name, it appeared as a new user if they logged in again in TM	17:09
pierregiraud	this issue is fixed since we now store ids	17:09
pierregiraud	however, if the username changes we have no way to handle it	17:10
dodobas	pierregiraud: so the problem is 'how to regulary update usernams ?	17:10
pierregiraud	yep	17:10
pierregiraud	exactly	17:10
pierregiraud	and there’s no service to get the name for a user by its id	17:10
harry-wood	oh really?	17:10
harry-wood	hmmm someone should totally add that	17:11
skorasaurus	nothing in the OSM api?	17:11
pierregiraud	the question has been asked several times	17:11
harry-wood	or the API should stop letting people change usernames :-)	17:11
pierregiraud	there’s a long thread about this I think	17:12
pierregiraud	https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/9181/how-to-get-the-user-id-for-a-certain-user	17:12
dodobas	pierregiraud: maybe overpass api? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API#User	17:14
harry-wood	yeah that works: http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/user/12345	17:14
pierregiraud	howdy	17:14
pierregiraud	I didn’t read my mails correctly	17:14
pierregiraud	my bad	17:14
pierregiraud	I got an answer from simonpoole	17:14
dodobas	harry-wood: yeah	17:15
pierregiraud	sorry for the noise	17:15
* pierregiraud slaps himself		17:15
harry-wood	Still quite a pain you have to call this and then update the name in our DB	17:16
pierregiraud	or maybe « spanks » ?	17:16
pierregiraud	so now the question is, when should we do this?	17:16
dodobas	pierregiraud: so... don't link directly to the user page... create a proxy page that will check the user_name and... redirect to the OSM page	17:16
pierregiraud	but the user may want to see his name on the top right corner	17:17
clara	not necessarily	17:17
harry-wood	do when the user logs in	17:17
harry-wood	if they change their username half way through a session… they can expect a broken link	17:18
clara	it's more important that the user knows that they are logged in - but it doesn't need to say the name	17:18
dodobas	pierregiraud: is ther something in the Oauth metadata ?	17:18
pierregiraud	the user who changes his name expects a broken link	17:18
pierregiraud	others don't	17:18
pierregiraud	I receive oauth metadata only when the user logs in	17:18
pierregiraud	but username is remember for a long time	17:19
pierregiraud	users don’t have to re-log in often	17:19
harry-wood	the user who changes his name …is a pain the ass. They deserve some broken links :-)	17:19
skorasaurus	could a warning saying that you must log-in or reauthorize if you change your user name enough?	17:20
pierregiraud	the tasking manager doesn’t know that the name has changed	17:20
pierregiraud	unless the user re-logs in	17:20
clara	how often do users actually change their name?	17:20
harry-wood	No I think we just say that to people. If somebody complains that it's showing the wrong name, we tell them to try logging out and in again	17:20
skorasaurus	ah, ok, i understand now.	17:20
dodobas	then just show uid :)	17:21
dodobas	problem sloved :)	17:21
pierregiraud	hum	17:21
clara	no - it's very difficult to find out your uid	17:21
clara	so users won't recognize themselves in the number	17:21
pierregiraud	OK, I’ll think about it a bit more and come back with proposals	17:22
clara	and then they get confused trying to change that to their name :)	17:22
* dodobas is just kidding :)		17:22
pierregiraud	problem is half solved with the link (I didn’t pay attention to) given by simon poole	17:23
pierregiraud	next point is less technical	17:23
pierregiraud	but more about contributions to OSM DB and information about how the data was produced	17:23
pierregiraud	https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/260	17:24
pierregiraud	it looks like I didn’t pay enough attention (once more) to the difference between changeset comments and « source » tag	17:24
dodobas	pierregiraud: it's a long issue, can you summarize ?	17:25
pierregiraud	we can leave this question to the github thread unless someone here want to give his point of view	17:25
pierregiraud	ok	17:25
pierregiraud	when an imagery is added automatically by the remote link in JOSM	17:26
pierregiraud	a new layer is created	17:26
pierregiraud	JOSM uses the layer « title » to add a source tag to elements uploaded to OSM DB	17:26
pierregiraud	it’s not clear how it’s done currently	17:27
pierregiraud	the user asks us to change the TM code so that the title is set properly at once	17:27
harry-wood	yeah I agree that would be good	17:27
pierregiraud	but it looks like there are possible caching problems	17:27
pierregiraud	so currently the way to solve the issue is not well defined	17:28
pierregiraud	I think we should leave this for now	17:29
harry-wood	Well if the project admin sets the name of imagery to be clashing with some previous name of imagery… then there's a caching problem. Not otherwise surely?	17:29
pierregiraud	people qualified for this discussion should join us on the thread on github	17:29
harry-wood	yes good point :-) moving on	17:29
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pierregiraud	dodobas: l10n enhancements?	17:30
pierregiraud	https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/260	17:30
dodobas	yeah... so l10n ... https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/238	17:31
dodobas	we should add proper support for plural forms	17:31
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dodobas	and... I'm not sure how to make JavaScript translatable...	17:32
dodobas	there are different solutions...	17:32
dodobas	but... not sure which are integratable with transifex	17:32
dodobas	or... how to actually update/extract strings from JS files...	17:33
pierregiraud	any example in mind for plural forms currently in the tasking manager?	17:33
pierregiraud	for javascript I tried to the translated string in the mako templates	17:33
dodobas	other thing... you mighthave noticed that we use Transifex https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/osm-tasking-manager2/	17:33
pierregiraud	to put	17:33
dodobas	there are two resources... master and current	17:33
dodobas	master are strings from currently developed OSMTM	17:34
dodobas	current is currently deployed version	17:34
dodobas	Transifex is nice... integration and everything... but :)	17:35
dodobas	it's really hard (or I don't know how to) latest updates	17:35
dodobas	pierregiraud: not sure... maybe there is some reference in the Pyramid docs	17:35
wonderchook	dodobas: have you talked to the InaSAFE guys? They've been through the transfex set-up recently and might have suggestions	17:36
dodobas	pierregiraud: plural... like this one ... https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/osm-tasking-manager2/translate/#hr/master/28587894	17:37
dodobas	${locked} user(s) is (are) currently working on this project	17:37
pierregiraud	OK	17:37
dodobas	wonderchook: will do	17:37
ptressel	Are the plural strings not separately translated?	17:38
ptressel	(Not familiar with Transifex workflow -- we use Pootle for Sahana.)	17:38
pierregiraud	this could be an option	17:38
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dodobas	wonderchook: i got everything nicely integrated... but... it's hard to follow updates... other then blindly update on a regular basis, or manually read 'latest changes on transifex'	17:38
dodobas	ptressel: it depends on language	17:39
dodobas	english has 2 plural forms... croatian 3...	17:39
wonderchook	dodobas: you mean so you know which translations are at a good point to integrate?	17:39
dodobas	wonderchook: we don't have a policy for that at the moment...	17:39
ptressel	dodobas, So if you're using the English string as the translation key, that doesn't provide distinct keys for Croatian...	17:40
dodobas	for example... less then 85% translated ... doesn't get in	17:40
wonderchook	so is the issue lack of policy?	17:40
wonderchook	or is there another problem?	17:40
dodobas	ptressel: it's not like that...	17:40
dodobas	the system will 'present' a user with a different input form for plural forms...	17:40
dodobas	as long as the source files are prepared to 'render' plural forms	17:41
ptressel	What is "system" here?	17:41
ptressel	Transifex?	17:41
dodobas	ptressel: any that can read PO files	17:41
dodobas	so we need to prapare the sources... 'mark' strings which are plural.. and everything else should be 'automatic'	17:42
ptressel	Not sure trying to pluralize on the fly is really doable.	17:42
dodobas	wonderchook: well, at the moment I've been adding new languages to the osmtm...	17:42
dodobas	and we should think about a policy to control when a language gets added to the osmtm... and when a language gets removed from osmtm	17:43
wonderchook	have you looked at other project policies? how much needs to be translated to be added or removed?	17:44
wonderchook	I think the translation needs to be enough to be useful	17:44
wonderchook	but not sure what that means	17:44
dodobas	ptressel: it was doable at the time PO format was introduced to Unix :)	17:44
ptressel	Ha.	17:44
ptressel	70s	17:44
dodobas	wonderchook: so enough is ... 45% ? 85% ? major strings translated ? :)	17:45
wonderchook	I think something 50 or 60%	17:45
wonderchook	but that is just me guessing	17:45
dodobas	ptressel: i think it's just a change from 'gettext' to 'ngettext' or something similar ...	17:46
ptressel	Yesbut...that just doesn't work.	17:46
ptressel	In most languages, the change to plural affects many words in the sentence.	17:47
ptressel	There are two common solutions:	17:47
dodobas	wonderchook: qgis had removed all languages below 30%, for 2.0 relese	17:47
dodobas	*release	17:47
dodobas	ptressel: that's why translators need to update all strings... even plural :)	17:48
ptressel	One is, give the translator an indefinite form "There is (are) %n user(s) on the system" and let them come up with an equivalent indefinite form	17:48
ptressel	Second is, give the translator both a singular and plural form	17:48
pierregiraud	shouldn’t we first find an example of implementations in pyramid	17:49
ptressel	That is, the translator gets the entire phrase, not word by word.	17:49
pierregiraud	and/or check if transifex will help us	17:49
dodobas	pierregiraud: they use ngettext...	17:49
dodobas	it's the only way...	17:49
ptressel	?	17:49
ptressel	Well, we don't do it for Sahana, so I'd contend it's not the only way...	17:50
dodobas	indefinite forms sound really 'idiotic' in Croatian language	17:50
ptressel	See above -- two options.	17:50
dodobas	ptressel: yes yes	17:51
dodobas	i don't like the first one... and think we should do the second one...	17:51
ptressel	We do the second -- generate translation requests for both a singular sentence and a plural sentence	17:51
dodobas	let ths system handle everythin, just be smart when to use gettext and when ngettext	17:51
ptressel	ngettext isn't either of the two options I mentioned, so that's a third.	17:52
ptressel	I don't think it works linguistically though.	17:52
dodobas	it's up to the translator to do the work	17:53
clara	maybe list the different options and discuss it in the issue queue for a bit - if you need to ask somebody else anyway?	17:53
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dodobas	clara: we are only discussing... we might move this to the mailing list	17:54
ptressel	;-)	17:54
dodobas	present different options... and then decide...	17:54
dodobas	or not decide	17:54
pierregiraud	would it possible to do POC?	17:55
dodobas	pierregiraud: yeah...	17:55
dodobas	I'll prepare something on master OK ? frst thing tommorrow morning	17:56
dodobas	anything else regarding osmtmv2 ?	17:56
dodobas	or can we move on ?	17:56
pierregiraud	we can move on	17:57
pierregiraud	I thin	17:57
pierregiraud	think	17:57
clara	website?	17:57
dodobas	clara: sure...	17:57
clara	I started with the bi-monthly report about what has been done and what the priorities, and linked it from a new section on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Working_groups/Technical#Reports	17:57
dodobas	and then wonderchook ... OAM	17:57
clara	Mikel ask for displaying profiles and work groups on the website, so I had a go at it. For now just with the obvious info OSM account, twitter, countries, short description, picture, projects and work groups they are involved it. Plus his/her latest updates.	17:57
clara	It looks like this for now: http://hot.ifrik.org/users/mikel	17:58
clara	Same for work groups: that's currently only description, links and members: http://hot.ifrik.org/technical_working_group	17:58
clara	Next step is to ask each work group if they require anything else. Any ideas can be added to the issue: https://github.com/hotosm/hotosm/issues/65	17:58
clara	... end	17:58
clara	any questions?	17:58
wonderchook	great, with the profiles will they link from projects and blog posts as well?	17:58
clara	yes	17:58
dodobas	so... we should all write blog posts ?!?!	17:58
dodobas	:)	17:59
clara	they are linked to the user name - even for users that are not active	17:59
clara	and they can be added as references to projects and working groups	17:59
wonderchook	great, I think one thing which is more a communications thing versus the tech side will be to think about the overall organization of the headers on the website	18:00
clara	my next step would be to ask the other work groups whether there are any specific fields they require	18:00
wonderchook	meaning would the working groups really be a top level	18:01
wonderchook	but that isn't so much tech as figuring out how to arrange things	18:01
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clara	yes - and that can be easily changed	18:01
dodobas	clara: it's good that you have don't a project manager report... now we have a template to work with :)	18:01
clara	:-)	18:02
dodobas	anything else for the website?	18:02
clara	not from me	18:02
pierregiraud	I should be able to work on mine soon	18:02
clara	pierregiraud: what do you mean?	18:03
pierregiraud	project manager report	18:03
clara	k	18:03
clara	next point then? :)	18:04
wonderchook	OAM?	18:05
dodobas	wonderchook: yes	18:05
wonderchook	okay so there is this website: http://hotosm.github.io/OpenAerialMap/ with the documentation that dodobas put together	18:05
wonderchook	which will continue to be filled out.	18:05
wonderchook	the idea is to have a HOT Tech Challenge for the catalogue part of OAM soon	18:05
wonderchook	we created a Google group specific for OAM: https://groups.google.com/a/hotosm.org/forum/#!forum/openaerialmap	18:05
wonderchook	it seemed the HOT mailing list is probably too noisy for people just interested in OAM	18:06
wonderchook	one discussion topic is at what point is the minimum viable product for delivery of OAM at the end of the grant	18:06
wonderchook	or rather "what features are needed for it to be useful"	18:06
wonderchook	did I miss anything dodobas?	18:07
dodobas	WE NEED HELP !	18:07
dodobas	:)	18:07
wonderchook	ha, yes we want to recruit more tech people to help	18:07
wonderchook	part of that is the HOT tech challenge	18:07
ptressel	Well, we have a bunch of interested folks in Seattle...	18:08
wonderchook	but also having the mailing list to point interested parties at, so if you know anyone that would be interested in helping please refer them to myself or the mailing list	18:08
ptressel	Have been trying to entice in Michael Patrick.	18:08
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dodobas	if you notice there is a new way to contribute... https://hotosm.github.io/OpenAerialMap/#how-to-contribute	18:09
wonderchook	oh awesome I missed that part	18:09
dodobas	once you create an account on http://annotateit.org/	18:10
dodobas	you can select any text on the page and add a comment	18:10
wonderchook	I will be do a BOF at FOSS4G and we'll have some community online meetings again soon	18:10
wonderchook	but yes at the moment it is mostly dodobas with some help from me	18:10
clara	do you wont to put something about OAM on the website as well?	18:10
dodobas	it's supported by ... http://annotatorjs.org/	18:11
wonderchook	hi clara, I should make it a project page	18:11
wonderchook	so yes! thanks for the reminder	18:11
dodobas	so... we can even create a HOT instance.. and use it for 'something'	18:11
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dodobas	anything else...	18:13
ptressel	Say we have a bunch of info on UAV imagery georeferencing...where would we put that?	18:13
dodobas	ptressel: on a OAM Node... :)	18:13
ptressel	Meaning?	18:14
dodobas	at the moment, we don't exactly know what is an OAM Node... so...	18:14
ptressel	This is just info	18:14
dodobas	OAM will also host documentation and best-practice guidelines for processing imagery... and whatnot	18:15
ptressel	Appears we can't look at the sub-pages without an annotateit account?	18:15
dodobas	but we don't know how will it manifest it's self in the OAM	18:15
ptressel	What I mean is, is there a place to put it now?	18:15
ptressel	This is info about how to do it.	18:16
ptressel	It's not a functioning system.	18:16
dodobas	now... I don't know	18:16
wonderchook	there is no specific place to put imagery right now because OAM doesn't exist	18:17
wonderchook	there are all the other ad hoc existing ways to host imagery	18:17
wonderchook	if the issue is there is a current need with specific imagery	18:17
ptressel	Not imagery	18:17
dodobas	or any info on how to georeference UAV...	18:17
ptressel	Info about how to georeference UAV imagery.	18:17
wonderchook	UAV pictures are imagery	18:17
dodobas	ptressel: what subpages ?	18:18
wonderchook	there are ways to georeference UAV imagery, but at the moment this is out of scope of the conversation of where we are with OAM	18:18
ptressel	"What we have here is a failure to communicate."	18:18
wonderchook	if you have a specific UAV imagery needs how about we discuss after the meeting	18:18
ptressel	Poke any of the nav links on the left of http://hotosm.github.io/OpenAerialMap/oam-components/oam-p/	18:18
ptressel	[11:17] ptressel "What we have here is a failure to communicate."	18:18
ptressel	What we have is *info* about *how to* georeference UAV imagery.	18:19
* clara needs to be off now - bye!		18:19
dodobas	bye clara...	18:19
dodobas	ptressel: so let me summarize	18:19
pierregiraud	ptressel: Guns	18:19
dodobas	there no specific place to put info about processing UAV... at the moment	18:19
dodobas	however it should be a part of OAM	18:20
dodobas	we are trying to figure out, and propose technical solutions for OAM	18:20
dodobas	and if you have any comments, please share	18:21
* pierregiraud has to go too		18:21
ptressel	Yes, and we have folks who work with lidar data professionally.	18:21
ptressel	The SFM work was done at the U of Washington.	18:21
dodobas	I have a short sysadmin report...	18:21
ptressel	But going back to the github.io page...	18:22
* pierregiraud stays a bit more		18:22
dodobas	everything is more or less fine...	18:22
dodobas	other then blackout on 3rd, August	18:22
pierregiraud	hosting problems?	18:23
ptressel	If I poke any of the nav links, like OAM Processing, I get a warning flash that says could not get auth from annotateit	18:23
ptressel	And the page just contains Lorem ipsum -- is that what is actually there?	18:23
dodobas	DC19 lost voltage, and crashed everything.... UPS did not kick in...	18:23
dodobas	anyway... our server was quickly powered up... as some servers took a few hours to power on	18:24
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dodobas	just a sec... brb	18:24
dodobas	thats the second outage in 12months...	18:26
dodobas	which is not to bad	18:26
wonderchook	dodobas: at some point we want a back-up system, right?	18:26
dodobas	server is not under any heavy load... there are more then enough resources	18:27
dodobas	wonderchook: yes	18:27
dodobas	that's something I NEED to do	18:27
ptressel	What database is it using? and can that db do journalling?	18:28
dodobas	the idea is to preapre a Amazon/DigitalOcean image which can be quickly powered on	18:28
wonderchook	dodobas: I think we have a couple different options. If we wanted to buy a server we could probably get free hosting for it. Though there is a certain advantage of not doing it that way	18:28
wonderchook	but yes the amazon option is also good :)	18:28
dodobas	ptressel: well, mysql and postgresql and sqlite ... :)	18:29
ptressel	Hmm...	18:29
dodobas	ptressel: but HA fail over systems ... are not an option	18:29
ptressel	Not what I meant...	18:29
wonderchook	I think the other thing with the systems is there are some that are far more important than others. e.g. the tasking manager is really key	18:29
ptressel	Journalling writes out the transaction before it performs it.	18:29
ptressel	So if the system crashes during transaction processing, it can roll back and replay the transaction	18:30
dodobas	wonderchook: yeah, that is critical	18:30
dodobas	wonderchook: I don't think we need a full failover setup... just something that can be 'started' up with the latest daily backup	18:31
wonderchook	yeah, that is sufficent	18:32
dodobas	so yeah, I'll focus on that...	18:32
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ptressel	http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/wal-intro.html	18:32
ptressel	Looks like postgresql can do journalling.	18:33
dodobas	ptressel: yeah, but if the server crahes... and it can't be recoverd... for some reason... journaling will not help	18:33
ptressel	Depends...	18:34
ptressel	Do you mean a disk crash?	18:34
ptressel	Or power fail?	18:34
dodobas	a meteor burns half of a datacenter	18:35
dodobas	or a mouse eats through a network cable	18:35
ptressel	Those are different cases...	18:36
ptressel	The distinction is, did you lose the local storage.	18:36
ptressel	To protect against losing local storage, can remote mirror / sync.	18:36
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dodobas	it's an outage, and the server is not reachable, we need to have a working tasking maanger instance	18:37
*** TOGA (~TOGA@p4FE95D24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #hot		18:37
dodobas	you don't know when the issue is going to be fixed	18:37
ptressel	Yes, and you can bring it up using the mirrored db.	18:37
ptressel	The server config is relatively static -- the data isn't	18:38
dodobas	that's why I said... HA Failover are not an option	18:39
dodobas	we only want to mitigate the issue	18:39
ptressel	https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Streaming_Replication	18:39
ptressel	We're failing to communicate. ;-)	18:40
dodobas	and we don't are about 12h of lost data	18:40
dodobas	*care	18:40
ptressel	The standard way to deal with this is database replication.	18:40
dodobas	ptressel: i know all of that...	18:40
ptressel	Ok...	18:40
dodobas	i've done log shipping and multi slave setup...	18:41
ptressel	So, the problem is...?	18:41
dodobas	there is no problem	18:41
ptressel	Ok, nm.	18:42
ptressel	Sounded like there was something you wanted to do re outages.	18:42
dodobas	we are ...	18:42
dodobas	there is going to be a 'stand-in' system that can be quickly powered up... using latest daily database backup :)	18:43
ptressel	Ah, so you don't want any *suggestions* about what to do about outages...	18:43
ptressel	Ok, got it.	18:43
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dodobas	if there is nothing else to add...	18:44
dodobas	i think we can end this TWG meeting	18:45
dodobas	ill do the usual summary ...	18:45
dodobas	oh... I forgot...	18:45
dodobas	we finally have IRC chat logging...	18:45
dodobas	ptressel: tnx for that	18:45
dodobas	http://logs.sahanafoundation.org/hotosm	18:45
wonderchook	should we tell people we are logging when we join the channel? is there a protocol about that?	18:45
dodobas	it in the topic	18:46
wonderchook	ok	18:46
bdon	why not use amazon RDS for the postgis database?	18:46
dodobas	bdon: it too expensive	18:46
ptressel	How much does it cost?	18:46
dodobas	*it's	18:46
dodobas	https://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html	18:47
bdon	maybe they'd be willing to donate? HOT is a registered nonprofit right?	18:47
dodobas	so the TWG meeting has ended...	18:47
wonderchook	bdon: yes HOT is a non-profit	18:48
wonderchook	and tax exempt	18:48
dodobas	bdon: there is no point to use RDS, unless you host everything else on Amazon	18:49
bdon	fair enough, out of the box high availability seems like a big win though	18:50
dodobas	to host everything we would need about 5Gb of memory... let me work that out...	18:50
dodobas	so.. we need an RDS pg + RDS mysql	18:52
dodobas	+ 3 small instances..	18:52
dodobas	+ 1 micro for testing	18:52
dodobas	so.. without any data trafic... and stored instances... it's about 115$ per month	18:54
dodobas	but.. im not sure if that's wnough	18:54
dodobas	at the moment we pay less than 100$ for a nice server that has ~10% utilization	18:55
dodobas	it's a SINGLE serverthat had 2 (couple of hours) outages in 12 months	18:55
dodobas	i do understand that it's not all about money...	18:56
wonderchook	we used to host everything on Amazon, we are saving money now though :)	18:56
dodobas	ptressel: ahh, yes some pages are just Lorem Ipsum pages... sorry for the confusion	19:01
ptressel	kk	19:02