Humanitarian OSM Team/Working groups/Technical/meeting 2015-03-09
Summary Coming Soon ....
Mar 09 17:58:37 dodobas: hi everyone ...
Mar 09 18:00:05 russdeffner: hi dodobas
Mar 09 18:00:26 russdeffner: is the TWG meeting starting? I probably can't devote much attention
Mar 09 18:01:59 dodobas: hi russdeffner yes...
Mar 09 18:02:08 dodobas: we can start the TWG meeting...
Mar 09 18:02:30 dodobas: the updated agenda is here https://hackpad.com/TWG-Meeting-03.2015-tentative-agenda-MvaYMiVX26D
Mar 09 18:03:13 dodobas: I can start with the short sysadmin report...
Mar 09 18:03:38 dodobas: also I'm on a crappy internet connection at the moment ... so I might lag
Mar 09 18:04:10 dodobas: TM testing instance has been updated
Mar 09 18:04:47 BlakeGirardot: hi all
Mar 09 18:04:59 dodobas: I was monitoring piwik because of the slightly bigger load (LearnOsm and HotSummit sites)
Mar 09 18:05:28 dodobas: and it does not seem that it has any problems
Mar 09 18:05:55 dodobas: so we might start parallel data collection on the www.hotosm.org site... google + piwik
Mar 09 18:06:09 dodobas: and figure out if we want to make the stats fully public...
Mar 09 18:07:24 dodobas: everything else is normal as im doing monthly restarts of the openatrium instance
Mar 09 18:07:43 dodobas: that's all i got to say about this topic...
Mar 09 18:08:16 dodobas: BlakeGirardot: can youdo a short report of the TM future development meeting we had last week
Mar 09 18:09:20 BlakeGirardot: I don't know that I could do a great job really
Mar 09 18:09:21 dodobas: or maybe pierregiraud ? :)
Mar 09 18:09:30 BlakeGirardot: We talked about making the dev process a bit more structured
Mar 09 18:09:37 BlakeGirardot: with a set release schedule
Mar 09 18:10:25 pierregiraud: we haven’t decided anything though
Mar 09 18:10:27 BlakeGirardot: Oh, the list in the agenda is pretty good recap, those are all from the meeting
Mar 09 18:10:31 dodobas: yeah :/
Mar 09 18:10:45 BlakeGirardot: Yes, we just haven't decided on actual details of doing those things yet
Mar 09 18:11:19 dodobas: is that someting we need to discuss now,
Mar 09 18:11:36 dodobas: or try to schedule another TM-dev meeting ?
Mar 09 18:11:38 pierregiraud: not sure
Mar 09 18:12:21 pierregiraud: do you mean a follow-up on the previous meeting?
Mar 09 18:12:42 dodobas: as there were some inquiries for more TM instances
Mar 09 18:13:12 dodobas: pierregiraud: well, meeting or an email exchange, but we should make some conlusions
Mar 09 18:13:49 pierregiraud: I know I fail as a project manager
Mar 09 18:14:57 dodobas: pierregiraud: it's not really your problem... if there were some set guidelines... then someone can simply follow them
Mar 09 18:15:06 BlakeGirardot: I disagree with that pierregiraud
Mar 09 18:15:18 pierregiraud: dodobas: guidelines for developers ?
Mar 09 18:15:21 dodobas: like what is an release... what is a testing candidate...
Mar 09 18:15:44 dodobas: how do we get from testing to the actual release
Mar 09 18:16:08 pierregiraud: do we have similar guidelines for other projects?
Mar 09 18:16:11 dodobas: pierregiraud: managing PR and issese is not easy
Mar 09 18:16:16 dodobas: pierregiraud: not that i know of
Mar 09 18:16:38 wonderchook: Yeah, we don't. I think the idea is we actually should have those guidelines
Mar 09 18:16:43 wonderchook: And the TM2 is the most mature of the HOT projects
Mar 09 18:17:16 dodobas: i dont' really want start this discussion, without some drafts ...
Mar 09 18:17:29 pierregiraud: I feel like people are looking for dev instances so that they can +1 new features before they go in, not more
Mar 09 18:17:53 BlakeGirardot: it is hard to say, there is some testing needed, espcially with api dev
Mar 09 18:18:01 BlakeGirardot: And if we were doing the big work
Mar 09 18:18:06 BlakeGirardot: for like the front page redesing
Mar 09 18:18:13 BlakeGirardot: there would be a feedback process
Mar 09 18:18:25 BlakeGirardot: and the dev/testing/stage server would fit that role
Mar 09 18:18:35 pierregiraud: of course, and I would have created an instance somewhere to show the result
Mar 09 18:18:48 pierregiraud: this is part of the internship to get feedback
Mar 09 18:19:02 dodobas: that's why we should probably create docs on how to run it on heroku/amazon ...
Mar 09 18:19:11 BlakeGirardot: I think that is more what we are talking about, but the api dev would benefit from that now and it would help if it were a little more timely than once a month
Mar 09 18:19:13 dodobas: so that anyone can spin up an instance
Mar 09 18:19:14 pierregiraud: unfortunately the intership is not going OK actually
Mar 09 18:19:24 wonderchook: dodobas is there a docker container already somewhere?
Mar 09 18:19:40 wonderchook: Someone asked me the other day and volunteered to set one up if there wasn't
Mar 09 18:19:50 BlakeGirardot: The issue with that is, who is going to pay for an aws instace so we can all access it for testing
Mar 09 18:19:50 pierregiraud: dodobas: OK for heroku
Mar 09 18:19:50 dodobas: wonderchook: not at the moment
Mar 09 18:20:11 pierregiraud: wonderchook: there’s an issue open for that
Mar 09 18:20:15 pierregiraud: someone tried already
Mar 09 18:20:20 BlakeGirardot: I don't know if there are charges for heroku and I am not up on docker so I don't know how that is shared publically
Mar 09 18:20:20 wonderchook: Oh okay, I'll check out the issue
Mar 09 18:20:30 pierregiraud: https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/561
Mar 09 18:20:43 dodobas: wonderchook: and we need to see what to add to the container...
Mar 09 18:21:03 dodobas: like, do we really want to have a docker image with the database...
Mar 09 18:21:18 pierregiraud: of course we don’t, there are private projects there
Mar 09 18:21:50 dodobas: pierregiraud: not a database dump... but a postgresql instance in the docker image...
Mar 09 18:21:59 pierregiraud: oh sorry
Mar 09 18:22:04 dodobas: as you need it to run TM2...
Mar 09 18:22:28 pierregiraud: as far as I know a docker image will not allow people to show what they’ve done publicly
Mar 09 18:22:36 dodobas: or we assume that the person will know how to link contaniers and setup external db container ...
Mar 09 18:22:48 dodobas: pierregiraud: yes...
Mar 09 18:23:21 dodobas: that's why I said ... free heroku account
Mar 09 18:23:29 BlakeGirardot: ya, that is part of the key use case here, publically showing dev progress for testing.
Mar 09 18:23:35 dodobas: amazon also has freetier... for 12 months
Mar 09 18:24:06 BlakeGirardot: but the sticking point was who manages this server, we don't want anything to do with production and were does that code live, we don't want a mess in github or to put additional load on pierregiraud
Mar 09 18:24:24 BlakeGirardot: My amazon free tier was up years ago
Mar 09 18:24:43 BlakeGirardot: This is a pretty small expese we are talking about
Mar 09 18:24:50 BlakeGirardot: a few hundred bucks a year
Mar 09 18:25:01 BlakeGirardot: But that is actually a big expense to me :)
Mar 09 18:25:07 BlakeGirardot: personally
Mar 09 18:25:07 dodobas: yeah, but we don't want a free for all server ... either
Mar 09 18:25:16 BlakeGirardot: right no free for all
Mar 09 18:26:04 dodobas: so we need to establish a processs to 'mark' a commit in the repository as something that's testable
Mar 09 18:26:50 dodobas: anything more than that should be a responsibility of a developer ... and he needs to take care of 'making an instance public'
Mar 09 18:27:16 BlakeGirardot: I agree
Mar 09 18:27:33 BlakeGirardot: Then we just push main from the repo to the dev sever
Mar 09 18:27:42 BlakeGirardot: or pull I guess is the right word
Mar 09 18:28:01 dodobas: we could also ... create an 'shared' amazon AWS instance
Mar 09 18:28:22 BlakeGirardot: pull from master to the dev server. I think consistency and process were what we really needed, it seemed a little random up to this point.
Mar 09 18:28:40 dodobas: and any developer who wants to show his branch, can get limited access to deploy code and show of his changes
Mar 09 18:28:43 BlakeGirardot: And no one wanted to bother dodobas or pierregiraud :)
Mar 09 18:28:52 BlakeGirardot: Exactly dodobas
Mar 09 18:29:08 BlakeGirardot: If it was something that they needed feedback on pre-merge
Mar 09 18:29:28 dodobas: it's not a problem for me... so i can set something like that up...
Mar 09 18:29:39 BlakeGirardot: We could almost do something where we just pull from their forks
Mar 09 18:29:51 BlakeGirardot: to the aws instance
Mar 09 18:29:51 pierregiraud: dodobas: as soon as it’s dev responsibility, that’s OK
Mar 09 18:29:58 BlakeGirardot: ok
Mar 09 18:30:01 dodobas: with time limited availabiltiy...
Mar 09 18:30:03 pierregiraud: who will get access to this instance? anyone?
Mar 09 18:30:20 dodobas: if there is no activity for 3 days... shut it down
Mar 09 18:30:34 dodobas: pierregiraud: anyone who wants to showoff new changes..
Mar 09 18:30:50 pierregiraud: or devs that have a working branch? with a pull request with passing tests?
Mar 09 18:31:32 dodobas: pierregiraud: not really sure... what if the new code has no tests ? :)
Mar 09 18:31:41 pierregiraud: this is probably worth giving it a try
Mar 09 18:31:48 pierregiraud: current tests shouldn’t fail
Mar 09 18:32:07 pierregiraud: travis tells if a pull request is about ot break existing tests
Mar 09 18:32:32 pierregiraud: this instance shouldn’t become the place where people write code
Mar 09 18:32:33 dodobas: anyway, we need to draft the release process... and within that process document what a developer needs to do in order to showoff his code
Mar 09 18:32:47 pierregiraud: dev still need to have an instance on their own computer
Mar 09 18:33:00 BlakeGirardot: for sure pierregiraud
Mar 09 18:33:03 dodobas: yeah... we could do it automatically... 'register your fork/branch'
Mar 09 18:33:39 dodobas: that branch/fork will get automatically pulled on the amazon instance...
Mar 09 18:33:45 BlakeGirardot: It is only a facility to help them get feedback testing, especially on api stuff that affects other parties so much.
Mar 09 18:34:25 dodobas: yeah...
Mar 09 18:35:32 dodobas: so, it seems like it could be completely transparent...
Mar 09 18:35:45 dodobas: not really sure how to actually do it :)
Mar 09 18:36:39 dodobas: ok, what do we do about the document draft?
Mar 09 18:38:06 dodobas: or to say it in a diferent way, how urgent is this ?
Mar 09 18:38:14 pierregiraud: can we start by figuring out how technically we can achieve the goal?
Mar 09 18:38:37 dodobas: basically, something along the lines of ...
Mar 09 18:38:48 dodobas: a developer 'registers' for a testing instance...
Mar 09 18:39:12 dodobas: the 'script' should create a new database for that developer...
Mar 09 18:40:04 dodobas: pull his changes ... create a docker image with his TM2 instance visible on some public port on the server
Mar 09 18:41:18 dodobas: somehow enable developer to 'recreate' his instance, either by sending an API request or clicking a button on the 'manager' system
Mar 09 18:42:04 BlakeGirardot: Should we sort that out off line so we can figure it out/test it a bit?
Mar 09 18:42:37 dodobas: BlakeGirardot: im just thinking out loud ... not really sure how to do it
Mar 09 18:43:05 dodobas: or what dragons sleep ahead
Mar 09 18:43:57 dodobas: but in a nutshell, mimic what heroku does... but in a much simpler form
Mar 09 18:44:13 pierregiraud: OK
Mar 09 18:44:45 pierregiraud: can we move on?
Mar 09 18:45:09 dodobas: so, have we made a decision about this ...
Mar 09 18:45:19 pierregiraud: nope
Mar 09 18:45:23 dodobas: do we need it or, just thinking about it ?
Mar 09 18:45:41 pierregiraud: users/devs want it
Mar 09 18:46:02 pierregiraud: but those people are not attending the meeting
Mar 09 18:46:29 BlakeGirardot: *cough* *cough*
Mar 09 18:46:33 BlakeGirardot: :)
Mar 09 18:47:21 dodobas: so, somthing nice to have,...
Mar 09 18:47:41 BlakeGirardot: Ya, doesn't have to happen immediatly
Mar 09 18:47:42 dodobas: I would still like to define how release process works ...
Mar 09 18:47:56 pierregiraud: OK
Mar 09 18:48:00 BlakeGirardot: just geting the process in place for the dev server with merged PRs will be great
Mar 09 18:48:04 BlakeGirardot: are we agreed we will do that?
Mar 09 18:48:12 pierregiraud: please note that there’s a Releasing.md file in the tasking manager
Mar 09 18:48:23 dodobas: and what needs to happen to make a TM (or any other hot project)
Mar 09 18:48:56 dodobas: what are the timeframes, how long we need to wait for the translators, ...,
Mar 09 18:49:16 dodobas: who makes the final decision...
Mar 09 18:50:02 pierregiraud: yep
Mar 09 18:50:19 dodobas: what counts as a 'usable' translation ...
Mar 09 18:50:26 pierregiraud: about the current release, we’re still missing translations
Mar 09 18:50:31 dodobas: how do we add more languages to the project
Mar 09 18:50:43 dodobas: how we remove languages from the project
Mar 09 18:50:59 pierregiraud: but most of the missing ones are for the project manager interface (project creation/editing…)
Mar 09 18:52:12 dodobas: so, who wants to participate in creating this document ?
Mar 09 18:52:58 pierregiraud: there’s no reason why I shouldn’t help
Mar 09 18:53:14 BlakeGirardot: I'm in
Mar 09 18:53:21 dodobas: ok, can we set a deadline for the first draft?
Mar 09 18:53:36 dodobas: I can lead this...
Mar 09 18:53:45 BlakeGirardot: Hackpad or google doc?
Mar 09 18:53:57 dodobas: so let's say 14days... for the first draft
Mar 09 18:53:59 BlakeGirardot: 2 weeks too short?
Mar 09 18:54:05 dodobas: ahaha :)
Mar 09 18:54:05 BlakeGirardot: I like 2 weeks better :)
Mar 09 18:54:24 dodobas: or 336 hours... :)
Mar 09 18:54:27 BlakeGirardot: lol
Mar 09 18:54:37 BlakeGirardot: That does make it sound short
Mar 09 18:55:26 dodobas: anyway, expect an email in the next few days with a few ideas on a googledoc
Mar 09 18:55:35 BlakeGirardot: Aye.
Mar 09 18:55:41 dodobas: moving on... pierregiraud did you want to contribute somethinG?
Mar 09 18:56:07 pierregiraud: so the current release is a bit stuck with translations
Mar 09 18:56:13 pierregiraud: I don’t think this should be blocker
Mar 09 18:57:11 pierregiraud: release has been drafted 18 days ago
Mar 09 18:57:51 pierregiraud: I’ve already sent a reminder for the localization using transifex notifications
Mar 09 18:57:58 pierregiraud: we should really move on
Mar 09 18:58:04 dodobas: pierregiraud: ok, set the date
Mar 09 18:58:52 pierregiraud: when do you think you’ll be able to pull the changes into 2.9 branch?
Mar 09 18:59:46 dodobas: i can do it tomorrow... pull the translations... update 'current' resource and deploy as production
Mar 09 18:59:56 dodobas: is that ok, or you need more time ?
Mar 09 19:00:03 pierregiraud: no I don’t
Mar 09 19:00:07 pierregiraud: that’s perfect
Mar 09 19:00:34 pierregiraud: about the internship, as already said, things are not going great
Mar 09 19:00:42 dodobas: ok, I'll contact you tomorrow, so we can coordinate and send 'release announcment' on the ML
Mar 09 19:00:53 pierregiraud: the deadline was today
Mar 09 19:01:05 pierregiraud: but we cannot show anything yet
Mar 09 19:01:33 pierregiraud: we’re far from what was initially scheduled
Mar 09 19:02:00 pierregiraud: we’re discussing with Kate to figure out why it failed
Mar 09 19:02:15 BlakeGirardot: Thats ok. I think we know that and just want to help make the best of what we do have for her and us.
Mar 09 19:02:20 pierregiraud: and whether we should extend the internship or not
Mar 09 19:02:38 mkl: pierregiraud: are the goals for the front page all in this GitHub ticket?
Mar 09 19:02:49 pierregiraud: yes mkl I think so
Mar 09 19:03:01 mkl: https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/529
Mar 09 19:03:17 pierregiraud: my problem is that I’ve spent a lot of time to answer Nitika’s questions
Mar 09 19:03:25 pierregiraud: more than expected
Mar 09 19:03:38 mkl: Did any UX/UI folks look at this? Feel like that would help, in general
Mar 09 19:03:39 pierregiraud: more than what it would have taken for me to do the job
Mar 09 19:03:47 BlakeGirardot: Thats mentoring :)
Mar 09 19:03:55 dodobas: yes :)
Mar 09 19:03:59 pierregiraud: mkl I agree
Mar 09 19:04:18 mkl: pierregiraud: that's not unusual, but if the mentee can't deliver after that kind of investment, then that's another question
Mar 09 19:04:22 pierregiraud: BlakeGirardot: I’m learning too, but laking patience (and time)
Mar 09 19:04:46 pierregiraud: I had to take several hours off my paid job for that
Mar 09 19:05:04 BlakeGirardot: Ya, that is just how it goes. I have some other opinions on how this went and was just new to us as an organization
Mar 09 19:05:27 BlakeGirardot: (that came out late, had nothing to diwth you taking time off, that is not good)
Mar 09 19:06:04 BlakeGirardot: I meant the missed goal and the difficult of mentor/intern relationship and time requirements. That was new to us as an organization
Mar 09 19:06:40 mkl: having clear commitments from the mentee is key
Mar 09 19:06:52 BlakeGirardot: So there is not blame or fault, there is we learned and now want to make the best of it for the intern and us. And next time will be very much better as a result.
Mar 09 19:07:07 mkl: they need to be accountable, and understand what they need to deliver by when.
Mar 09 19:07:14 mkl: this is the hardest part in my experience
Mar 09 19:07:31 BlakeGirardot: mkl: Mhairi is mentioning the 40 hr/wk in all her initial contacts with them.
Mar 09 19:08:10 BlakeGirardot: And we have to have mentors that can ensure they can help make sure the interns can actually work for that time too
Mar 09 19:08:11 mkl: good. also good to lay down agreed communication
Mar 09 19:08:17 pierregiraud: and it sometimes hard to spend 40 hrs a week when you’re a student and have exams during the intership period
Mar 09 19:08:29 mkl: ie, we speak at this time every week, for this length of time
Mar 09 19:08:37 mkl: we reply to email within this length of time
Mar 09 19:08:39 mkl: etc
Mar 09 19:08:42 pierregiraud: BlakeGirardot: yes, mentors also need to be sure they can spend time
Mar 09 19:08:49 BlakeGirardot: It did not help it started in December with the holidays either, that makes it hard to get going and sets a bad preceedent
Mar 09 19:08:53 mkl: yea, 40 hours is lot for an internship, if during the school period
Mar 09 19:09:09 pierregiraud was a bit designated as a volunteer
Mar 09 19:09:17 pierregiraud: ;-)
Mar 09 19:09:19 mkl: pierregiraud: sounds like you could have been more clear about how time you could give to her each week
Mar 09 19:09:42 pierregiraud: yep
Mar 09 19:09:43 BlakeGirardot: Yes, pierregiraud I thought that as well. You are the TM person so you got pressed into service on the TM project
Mar 09 19:10:17 pierregiraud: it’s like that
Mar 09 19:10:38 pierregiraud: I accept it gladly as soon as it goes well
Mar 09 19:10:48 pierregiraud: but I knew in advance that it would take time
Mar 09 19:11:06 pierregiraud: I haven’t accept to mentor any upcoming internship yet
Mar 09 19:11:10 pierregiraud: accepted
Mar 09 19:11:17 pierregiraud: I’m decided yet
Mar 09 19:11:28 BlakeGirardot: yes, and I think Mhairi understands it does not help anyone
Mar 09 19:11:32 pierregiraud: even though the Usability testing is interesting
Mar 09 19:11:38 BlakeGirardot: to pressure or "volunteer" anyone for any mentoring.
Mar 09 19:12:18 pierregiraud: I just wished I could dedicate more time to HOT
Mar 09 19:12:20 BlakeGirardot: Which we learned from your experience, sorry you had to go through that, but we learned from it.
Mar 09 19:12:33 pierregiraud: but I also like my full time job
Mar 09 19:12:43 BlakeGirardot: I have to run out for 20 mins. Employment is good :)
Mar 09 19:12:59 pierregiraud: so, to sum up
Mar 09 19:13:10 pierregiraud: don’t expect too much from the current internship
Mar 09 19:13:23 pierregiraud: I don’t think we’ll get a new home page sometimes soon
Mar 09 19:13:42 BlakeGirardot: Ya, lets do our best to showcase what Nitika does accomplish, that is the most important part to me at the moment.
Mar 09 19:13:46 pierregiraud: unless I take some time to do the job mys�elf
Mar 09 19:13:56 BlakeGirardot: Let what didn't get accomplished be for our private review later.
Mar 09 19:13:58 dodobas: pierregiraud: you don't have to
Mar 09 19:14:28 dodobas: or... you should not do it
Mar 09 19:14:39 BlakeGirardot: But really there is not much more to review, you have told us and we know pierregiraud
Mar 09 19:14:55 pierregiraud: I do think that the new home page design is a must have for the tasking manager
Mar 09 19:15:19 dodobas: moving along ? hot exports ?
Mar 09 19:15:22 BlakeGirardot: It was a bit of a bold project for an intern, TM being such a vital core component of what we do
Mar 09 19:15:26 pierregiraud: btw I’ll to run in 10 minutes or so
Mar 09 19:15:27 BlakeGirardot: Ya, next :)
Mar 09 19:15:59 dodobas: so, hot export ... no one cares about, and everyone complains ... :)
Mar 09 19:16:40 dodobas: just want to say that adredding the issue https://github.com/hotosm/hot-exports/issues/92 should not be a problem
Mar 09 19:17:27 dodobas: but... we need to discuss about what is exactly a testing instance
Mar 09 19:17:58 dodobas: i think that it should have some data... maybe not even regulary updated...
Mar 09 19:18:27 dodobas: as it's probably not required to have all of the exports that we have on the production instance
Mar 09 19:19:04 dodobas: and what is exactly a traning session
Mar 09 19:19:32 dodobas: what outcomes a traning session has, and what we need to do in order to make it happen
Mar 09 19:20:10 dodobas: not sure about other things in the HOT Export section...
Mar 09 19:20:49 dodobas: improvements have been proposed as GSOC and Outreachy proejcts... not sure how is that connected with the Hewlett grant
Mar 09 19:21:46 dodobas: so we should move on, and ill add some comments to the GH issue and try to start a discussion
Mar 09 19:22:23 dodobas: last thing i would like to mention is that ws should start preparing coding conventions for HOT projects
Mar 09 19:22:55 dodobas: not as something we will impose on the developers, but more as beste practices for particular technology stack...
Mar 09 19:23:12 dodobas: is there some one who wants to start doing that?
Mar 09 19:24:42 dodobas: anyway... if no one else wants to report something...
Mar 09 19:25:45 dodobas: thank you for participating, next meeting should be ~ April, 13th
Mar 09 19:26:18 pierregiraud: thanks dodobas
Mar 09 19:27:44 dodobas: BlakeGirardot: was your meeting-bot active, or should I do a recap ?
Mar 09 19:30:11 BlakeGirardot: I can do it
Mar 09 19:30:14 BlakeGirardot: It will take me a day
Mar 09 19:30:22 BlakeGirardot: I mean to do the TM meeting from last week too
Mar 09 19:30:48 BlakeGirardot: But been a little extra busy this past week
Mar 09 19:31:06 dodobas: BlakeGirardot: I'll buy you a beer... :)
Mar 09 19:33:13 dodobas: or two...
Mar 09 19:33:15 dodobas: :)
Mar 09 19:33:17 dodobas: l8r