<Etienne> Anyone here for the Mapping Techniques, Tips and Tricks meeting?
<avantman42> I'd come along to see what got said. I was also going to ask a couple of questions. Back in a mo
<chippy_tim> theres a meeting now?
<Etienne> avantman42: If you have questions, please go ahead and ask them.
<Etienne> chippy_tim: Well, kind of... nothing was really scheduled or announced. So it's a bit ad-hoc.
<chippy_tim> ive a question or two :)
<Etienne> Go ahead
<chippy_tim> schemas: like landuse:residential, road:footpath, access:yes (dont remember the correct ones) but instead of writing them for each way, is there a way to save them as like a template
<chippy_tim> is there a method to save me creating new key:value pairs for ways, in other words :)
<Etienne> Yes, if you are using JOSM then you can use the Annotations Preset feature
<chippy_tim> oh! I should update my JOSM then :)
<Etienne> Annotations Preset is an XML file that defines a set of valid key/value combinations
<Etienne> Build 128 is what I am using
<chippy_tim> 114 here
<Etienne> Time to upgrade.
<chippy_tim> does the file reside in the .jsom folder?
<chippy_tim> yep :)
<Etienne> It can be anywhere - its referenced with a URI
<Etienne> Blackadder was working on one that implemented all of the map features rules
<Etienne> I have one that implements most of the ones I use
<chippy_tim> great stuff, I'll have a look in the list
<chippy_tim> got 136 build now
<avantman42> How do I mark an area? I'm sure I got told at the Midlands meeting, but I've forgotten ;-)
<Etienne> Here's my file:
<Etienne> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<item name="Major Highway">
<label text="Major Highway"/>
<combo key="highway" text="Type" values="secondary,primary,trunk,motorway,motorway_link"/>
<text key="ref" text="Road Number"/>
<text key="image" text="Image URI"/>
<check key="oneway" text="Oneway?" values="1,-1"/>
<item name="Minor Highway">
<label text="Minor Highway"/>
<combo key="highway" text="Type" values="residential,unclassified,service,unsurfaced"/>
<text key="name" text="Street name"/>
<text key="image" text="Image URI"/>
<check key="oneway" text="Oneway?" values="1,-1"/>
<combo key="highway" text="Type" values="footway,steps,cycleway,bridleway"/>
<key key="highway" value="gate"/>
<item name="Service Road">
<label text="Service Road"/>
<key key="highway" value="service"/>
<key key="amenity" value="parking"/>
<key key="amenity" value="telephone"/>
<text key="post_code" text="Post code"/>
<item name="Post Box">
<label text="Post Box"/>
<key key="amenity" value="post_box"/>
<text key="ref" text="Letter box number"/>
<key key="amenity" value="place_of_worship"/>
<combo key="denomination" text="Type" values="church_of_england,catholic,muslim,hindu,buddist,sikh,jewish,<other - please specify>"/>
<text key="name" text="Name"/>
<text key="image" text="Image URI"/>
<text key="name" text="Name"/>
<combo key="waterway" text="Type" values="river,canal,drain,"/>
<item name="Data Source">
<label text="Way/Segment/Node Data Source"/>
<combo key="source" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/>
<item name="Street Name Source">
<label text="Street Name Source."/>
<combo key="source:name" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/>
<item name="Road Number Source">
<label text="Road Number Source."/>
<combo key="source:ref" text="Source" values="landsat,photograph,local knowledge,common knowledge,dictaphone,<other - please specify>"/>
<item name="Power Line">
<label text="Power Line"/>
<key key="power" value="line"/>
<label text="Power Line Pylon"/>
<key key="power" value="tower"/>
<text key="ref" text="Tower Id"/>
<Etienne> avantman42: you can mark an area just by making a way that joins up with itself.
<avantman42> Etienne: I thought it was something like that, but isn't there a key/value pair to mark it as an area?
<Etienne> You need to make sure that all the segments are pointing in the same direction, and the way should include the segments strictly in clockwise or anti-clockwise sequence.
<Etienne> almien: thks for that: http://pastebin.com/773469
<Etienne> btw that file covers the values that I use for 98% of the tags that I use.
<avantman42> So, if I make sure that each segment goes in a clockwise direction, and they are added to the way in order, then that's it?
<chippy_tim> thanks Etienne!!
<Etienne> avantma42: yes, just tag the way with an area-like tag, such as amenity=parking and you are done.
<avantman42> Etienne: Grand. Thanks
<avantman42> Now how do I use this annotations file? I've got it downloaded, and it's in my preferences. I just can't work out how to use it
<blarson> When editing a way, josm randomly decided to add a segment from another way. How do I fix this?
<tweety_de> there should now be a pulldown on near the tags window
<tweety_de> use this to select one of the predefined
<almien> control-click on the offending segment
<tweety_de> or use ctrl-z to undo
<blarson> tweety_de: didn't notice till I uploaded
<avantman42> tweety_de: There is. Thanks, I don't know how I missed that
<almien> select it, press W, then ctrl-click
<tweety_de> if you uploaded its's probably too late for ctrl-z
<tweety_de> i missed it too. Imi had to point me to it 4 times untill saw it ;-)
<avantman42> That makes me feel a little better :-)
<avantman42> Etienne: Thanks. Your annotations file looks very useful
<blarson> josm seemed to work this time. it does so just often enough to confuse me.
<avantman42> My other question: How do I add a place name?
<Etienne> avantman42: Remember, you can change this file to suit the things that you want to tag in the way that you want to tag them - you don't just need to follow the way I have been doing it.
<almien> place=village, name=Hersham
<avantman42> Etienne: I realise that, but having yours to start from makes it a lot easier
<almien> there's a list of "place" tags on the wiki (village, town, city, country, etc.)
<avantman42> almien: Yeah, but do I just tag a node with that, or do I need to create an area?
<almien> node is fine
<avantman42> Right, and presumably the name will appear where the node is? Grand, thanks
<almien> boundaries are notoriously hard to find anyway (compared to village centres)
<Etienne> avantman42: For example, I take copious photos and use the image tag to record the file name of the photo. You may not want/need to do that.
<avantman42> Etienne: Yeah, I'll have to have a look at it some time
<avantman42> But it's easier to edit a working file than to start one from scratch
<Etienne> With Osmarender rules file osm-map-features.xml the name is generally positioned to the right of the node.
<avantman42> I'm downloading some data now to try it with
<Etienne> avantman42: a working example is always a good place to start.
<rweait> Etienne: is there a FAQ or HOWTO for getting started with josm?
<Etienne> rweait: Somewhere there are some very good recordings of Imi explaining how to use JOSM.
<rweait> Thank you
<Etienne> rweait: I think they are at http://josm.eigenheimstrasse.de/ but this is giving me an error at the moment.
<almien> maybe the router is being painted again
<avantman42> Hmm. According to Map Features, I should use place_name, but Osmarender only appears to recognise name
<almien> name is the commonly used one
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<Etienne> I'd not noticed the sub-section of places that suggests place_name. Was this added recently? Is anyone using it?
<almien> according to (Dutch's???) statistics page, it's used about 20% as much as name
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* SteveC wakes up
<nick_b> hello again
<almien> good morning steve!
<nick_b> is the mapping tips session happening
<Etienne> nick_b: it's in full swing :-)
<avantman42> I've remembered another question I had: Should I mark dual carriageways & roundabouts as oneway?
<SteveC> sounds like a good idea for routing
<almien> and should we have a "carriageway" tag that means "oneway, but only because it's half of a road"
<Etienne> avantman42: this is a good question.
<Etienne> junction=roundabout, oneway=yes seems redundant to me
<avantman42> I've marked some as oneway, but wasn't really sure if I should
<avantman42> I had an idea I'd seen it mentioned somewhere
<Etienne> highway=motoway, oneway=yes also seems a bit redundant
<tweety_de> i have a complete mirror of imis josm directory at www.ostertag.name/osm/josm
<avantman42> Etienne: I agree, but I had an idea I'd read somewhere that motorways should be tagged as oneway=yes
* almien tags motorways as oneway
<almien> for fear that some routing software will direct people down the wrong sliproad and put us all in the newspaper headlines
<Etienne> So did I, and that is what I have been doing - but I've never seen a two way motorway
<almien> a-roads are the ones which can be dual-carriageway, single-carriageway or one-way
<Etienne> almien: agreed
<almien> "I was only following the GPS" argues russian truck driver after 98-car pile up on the M25
<Etienne> almien: that would be a problem with the segment direction, not with oneway=yes, unless he was going down the wrong carriageway.
<Etienne> Likewise, I don't bother to tag highway=motorway, car=yes because that is implied by the motorway tag.
<avantman42> Should Osmarender mark one way streets in some way? It doesn't seem to be doing so for me
<Etienne> But I have seen something like highway=motorway, car=yes, horse=no, moped=no, foot=no, bike=no, tractor=no, ... that seems very redundant to me.
<Etienne> avantman42: It does try to. It puts a very small arrow at the very end of any way that is tagged oneway=yes.
<nick_b> Etienne: aggreed - such things should be inferred
<blarson> Etienne: In calinfornia, bikes are allowed on some freeways.
<avantman42> Etienne: Right. Doesn't seem to be visible, even when zoomed in
* almien didn't notice the "no bikes" sign on US freeways until motorists told him
* SteveC tries to imagine cycling on the 101
<almien> Anchorage has a motorway to get from one end of the town centre to the other
<Etienne> avantman42: the arrow is narrower than the width of the line and if the line meets another line then it is probably painted over by that.
<avantman42> Etienne: Ah, right. OK
<almien> so do chevrons mean one-way, or steep hill?
<almien> as map standards go
<Etienne> almien: "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from"
<blarson> I think it was part of us101 that I saw the "bikes must exit" sign on. They are only allowed in sections where there isn't another reasonable route and the sholders are paved and wide.
<SteveC> If someone was to add 'highway=minor' support to osmarender, how should it go? 'normal' maps seem to make them look the same as 'highway=residential'
<almien> it depends on the gamma setting of your monitor I think
<almien> residential looks different to minor on the mac, but not on KDE
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<Welshie> did I miss anything? only 1HR 12 minutes late
<almien> (light grey area surrounding the road, looks white on PC)
<almien> hello Welshie
<SteveC> almien, you're saying osmarender does do minor?
<Etienne> Google maps shows private roads as greyer and narrower than pulic roads.
<almien> minor=unclassified in osmarender I think. and residential = "highway=unclassified, abutters=residential"
<Welshie> osmarender can do anything you want it to, apart from make a really good nice hot cup of tea.
<Etienne> SteveC: if you want minor roads then edit osm-map-features like this:
s/k="highway" v="unclassified|residential"/k="highway" v="unclassified|residential|minor"/g
<Welshie> I think the discussion here is what the current default distribution of the osm-map-features2.xml does
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<Etienne> Welshie: can I use that quote? ;-)
<Welshie> as for highway=service. I've been using that to denote stuff like privately owned access roads to motorway services, trading estates and the like
* almien uses amenity=service and assumes it will only be used on large-scale maps showing the east midlands on a page
<SteveC> Etienne, on the way back from Bath we deliberately took A roads to try and get some new stuff but looking through, you've done it all :-(
<SteveC> Etienne, (we went off the m3, over the m25 to your area and continued east toward redhill, back over the m25 etc)
<Etienne> SteveC: me? I went to Banbury recently avoiding the M40 and still couldn't find many roads that hadn't already been done.
<Welshie> coverage in my part of the world (North London), I've been looking at osm data so long, I know when I need to switch the GPS off and on, to save on battery and tracklog space.
<SteveC> Etienne, yeah I'm pretty sure its you, the massive area in south west london just inside the m25... ring any bells? :-)
<SteveC> Welshie, :-) I can drop all that courier data... I've been meaning to
<almien> my family live in the next town to Etienne, they still haven't found a road he hasn't mapped
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<Etienne> *inside* the M25 its all mine.
<Welshie> when was the last ecourier data uploaded?
<Welshie> etienne : you sound like landed gentry there
<SteveC> Welshie, um... like a year ago
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<Welshie> steve: any idea of the extent of the ecourier stuff: did any go much outside M25 ?
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<Etienne> almien: I think there's a couple of paths through parks in WOT that I havent done.
<SteveC> Welshie, not really
<almien> the reservoirs look good
<Etienne> almien: You can seem them from space (so they say)
<almien> you can see drain-covers from space
<Welshie> how about working out that you can drop ecourier points if there's other non-ecourier points within 10m of them?
<avantman42> What's the problem with ecourier data?
<Welshie> have you looked at central london in JOSM, or the applet?
<Etienne> Why is there no mapping in South East London? Does nobody live there?
<SteveC> avantman42, its pretty dense and low quality
<SteveC> Etienne, check out Lewisham, Nick Hill did all of it but didnt turn it in to ways
<Welshie> I did a bit of Southwark
<Welshie> only the roads that I knew.
* almien looks through the catalog of unmapped cities...
<avantman42> SteveC: Ah, right. OK
<Etienne> But further out, Blackheath, Bromley, etc, there's nothing.
<f_mohr> hi SteveC .. is there a chance to find out who's uploaded some nodes and segments?
<Welshie> Tooting is a little sparse too
<Welshie> you certainly won't want to drop ecourier data for the hell of it, in areas where there are no other alternatives
* almien is going to need a job in scotland, and a car...
<SteveC> look at my little reigate patch
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<almien> Liverpool and York are the main ones with no data
<SteveC> I have an ex in Liverpool so I hate the place... York sounds like a lovely place to map however
<almien> you'd get penny lane?
<SteveC> almien, I used to live 10 meters or so from there
<almien> york is ok
<almien> you'd have to walk the walls
<Etienne> York would be a great place for a mapping weekend. Hull would also be OK as its very flat and cycle friendly.
<almien> actually, I know a load of people visiting scotland all through winter for walking
<almien> might be worth giving them some GPS
<SteveC> Etienne, when was that render done...? it doesnt have some recent stuff I've done around wandsworth bridge
<almien> has anyone marked the Savoy as "drive on the right"?
<Etienne> SteveC: July 24
<SteveC> it's really pretty
<almien> Durham would be like 2 people/1weekend,but costs about £60 to get a train to
<Etienne> SteveC: I've done quite a bit to the East of the A3 since then. Elmbridge commons is a massive area of green with lots of footpaths and bridleways.
<almien> *cough* "horse rides". they hate cyclists there
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<f_mohr> how should we handle mapped areas without supporting trackpoints .. i found a strange area in franfurt/germany
<Etienne> f_mohr: any clues as to where it came from or who did it?
<f_mohr> nope ..
<almien> they may have trackpoints on their computer, didn't upload them
<f_mohr> it almost too good, has no trackpoints and some errors like death ends connected to the next street
<tweety_de> f_mohr: I still have a lot of my tracks not uploaded; Yes shame on me.
<tweety_de> f_mohr: And I was driving through FF a year ago or so.
<Etienne> maybe put a request on the mailing list and Wiki. If nobody comes forward and "claims" them, then ask someone to look at the database for ownership.
<f_mohr> that was no drive through .. if a living area
<tweety_de> no, than it's not my fault. Uhh :-)
<blarson> Anybody have a handspring springboard? Need a gps for it?
<tweety_de> blarson: ? what ?
<blarson> I got a gps at a swap meet new in box that only workks on that pda.
<Etienne> blarson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springboard and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handspring_%28Gymnastics%29 ??
<Etienne> f_mohr: Maybe we need to work out a procedure for querying dubious data. Like 1) ask on the wiki 2) ask on the mailing list 3) get an admin to look at the database 4) delete the data
* f_mohr will start with 2)
<SteveC> the new renderer really slows down the db doesnt it :-/
* chippy_tim would be up for York too, only 30mins away
<Etienne> SteveC: things have been sloer recently
<blarson> The gps is for a "handspring visor springboard" expantion slot.
<Welshie> maybe the system is slow because there's so many of us on channel looking at areas
<Etienne> blarson: put a post on the talk mailing list - someone might be interested - where are you? US?
<blarson> Etienne: Yes, los angeles, california, us
<Etienne> blarson: cool, I laid some tracks down from LAX out to Palm Beach, then Joshua Tree, Barstow and Death Valley a few months ago.
<Etienne> s/Palm Beach/Palm Springs/
<blarson> Etienne: I started making ways from some of the segments.
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<Etienne> Great, if you put in a request to Dan I think you can get the TIGER import redirected to an area you are interested in.
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<eckhart> spot-the-error picture: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Streckennetz_Bayern.png
* mcn waves
<chippy_tim> hi mcn
<eckhart> there's a way missing near München (Munich) :-(
<Etienne> echert: how did you make this image?
* avantman42 goes to bed
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<eckhart> railroad in bavaria
<eckhart> (parts of, that is)
<nick_b> I guess tunnels are going to be an issue for OSM
<Etienne> eckhart: cool. Welshie said "osmarender can do anything you want it to, apart from make a really good nice hot cup of tea" - maybe he's right :-)
<eckhart> not even a big deal
<eckhart> just comment out everything not railroad related
<chippy_tim> we can do it like they did on the old paper maps, draw the lines dashed
<eckhart> and adjust the scale attribute
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* SteveC goes to bed
* almien too
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<nick_b> so who's left?
<tweety_de> goes to bed too
<nick_b> chippy_tim: are you set for FOSS?
* mcn is left, but i've only just arrived...
<mcn> my machine got accidentally rebooted, and i've only just realised I didn't rejoin #osm
<mcn> good meeting?
<Etienne> nick_b: I'm still here
<eckhart> chippy_tim: like this: http://ewsoftware.de/temp/osm/circle1301.png ?