Talk:WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Places

From OpenStreetMap Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Some things need to be sorted out here (add other problems to this list if you have some, discuss it on the Talk page):

  • When to use city/village/...? Maybe look up the population and follow the English conventions? Cities are formally declared "city" by the government in Belgium, but I don't think we can use that.
  • How to tag districts? There are no applicable tags. Maybe "quarter" could work, but quarters are just for small neighbourhoods, and give only names on the map when you zoom in a lot as a result. Not really a solution for Deurne for example, which has 70000 inhabitants. Should we discard the fact it's a districs and just use the village/city tags?
  • Merged municipalities, like Heusden-Zolder, Knokke-Heist, Langemark-Poelkapelle: what you sometimes see on maps is "Heusden-" on one part, and "Zolder" on the other one, but that would make the engine believe there's a municipality called "Heusden-"...
  • Similarly: municipalities like "Heuvelland" and "Zwalm": there's no village called like that, it's just the name given to the municipalities that contain a lot of villages.

If you use lists, then write lists. A list is not a complete story with a dot in front of it. It now looks like a 10y old wrote the page.

Places like Wilrijk are suburbs, not towns.

The place tag has always been tightly connected to the population of that place. As a result we apply tags that may not look correct but unfortunately it was started, all renderers now apply that, and we just have to follow it in Belgium. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I like to see links for such claims. I hear every where that you shouldn't care about how things are rendered, and you are telling the opposite. Here is my link: suburb. Wilrijk is one of the nine districts of the city Antwerp, therefore it is one of the nine suburbs in Antwerp and Belgium.
First of all, please sign your comments with ~~~~
For the link, go to place=* and read the core values section. So the tags always were applied according to the population (sure, they're quite arbitrary numbers), but it's like that now and if you want to change this you need to basically retag the entire world. We're not tagging for renderers, renderers have just adopted to the way the tags were defined. So we're tagging according to those definitions and not for the renderer, yet it may look like that of course. --Eimai 18:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
btw, if you tag Wilrijk as a suburb, then places like Mortsel or Boechout should be suburbs of Antwerp as well. Tricky, because Mortsel also became an official city ten years ago. The point that Wilrijk is different because it's a district is not valid: it wasn't 25 years ago and it didn't grow that spectacularly since. --Eimai 18:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I was under the impression that OSM is supposed to be about how things are in the present.
Again, sign your comments with ~~~~. If you want people to recognize you it's better to have a name attached to your comments.
And where did I say OSM isn't about tagging current situations? All I've said is that in the current situation, if you don't think about municipalities, Mortsel and Boechout are suburbs of Antwerp, just like Wilrijk is. So while you say you want the rules for place tags not to take into account municipalities, you still would want different tags for Mortsel, Boechout and Wilrijk. And where exactly would the suburbs stop? Hemiksem? Wommelgem? Wijnegem? Ranst?--Eimai 13:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Please people just stick to the official categorization of places. Cities are cities by royal solution not because you want them to be.

If you tag all official cities with a city tag you end up with over a hundred cities in Belgium. It's an international rule to tag only places with population over 100.000 as city, and it's better to just follow that so the map looks a bit consistent (read: the map of Belgium wouldn't look completely broken). We can always add our own set of tags for places with an official city status. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Links to backup your point please.
Links for what? The place=* page has the rule of "over 100.000 → city". The number of places that have the status of "city" in Belgium (133) can be found on wikipedia here --Eimai 18:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Read this, and find out that it is a general idea, just to hint you on how and where to look for information, and very dependent on the country. In the case of Belgium the rules are different.
And if you didn't read what I've written: the rules described on the page are not the same as the rules for Belgium. We bend the rules to fit in our country (that's what is meant with "general idea": tag more or less like this, rules may differ, but don't go too far from the idea), but we can't just discard international conventions and act like they don't exist. If you want to do that, then please make a complete library that all renderers, routers and other interpreters of OSM data can use to map each tag in each country to a certain concept so that you can at least interpret the OSM data. I'm sure the work will be appreciated, especially by me since I've always been a proponent of country specific tags, contrary to what you might think. I'm just also proponent of keeping international tags in mind, whereas you just wants to throw all that away. --Eimai 13:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Also municipalities are not named on any map, so not on OSM either. The list of municipalities on this page is only there because it shows which municipal capitals are cities and which are villages so you know which to tag as city and which to tag as town.

On the contrary. All maps I've seen have the names for "Heuvelland", "Zwalm", "Heusden-Zolder" or "Houthalen-Helchteren" etc. Albeit on some maps you get things like "Heusden-" on one part and "Zolder" on the other, but that's not really possible with OSM. If you look at NGI/IGN maps the names "Heusden-Zolder", "Heusden" and "Zolder" are all on the map (but for the new municipality names it's written in all caps whereas the others are just titlecase). This could also be solved with a special Belgian tag. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
You can't be serious, that is what the boundary tags are for.
Buy some maps then if you don't believe that the names like "Heuvelland" appear on it. It *is* a "place", meaning that there's a geographical location with that name. So we need to map it in some way to the place tags. --Eimai 18:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for making the assumption that I am not from this world and have never seen a map. Also commercial maps are irrelevant, they are renderings (interpretations) of data. Again contributors don't supply interpretations, they supply data.

It is not up to us to decide which names on what level and how big the names of places should be on the map. Our task is to correctly put data in the database.

We always have to blend our tags into the OSM tags a bit to make it a bit like the international usage. Like the highway classification that doesn't really reflect how things are officially done in Belgium, but our system is molded into the international model. The same with the place tags: we have to more or less discard some things to get it a bit more consistent with the rest of the world. But we can add our own different tags that could get used if we start rendering maps ourselves. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
No we don't. And we are not like the rest of the world, and there is no need to hide that.
Did I say we were? That's why we have our own rules to map things like places or highways. --Eimai 19:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmz, from reading the rest of your comments I can only conclude you contradict yourself.
No, you're not reading what I write. I'll repeat it again: international tagging rules give a general idea (you were correct assuming that above). Countries take those ideas to map their concepts to that general idea (ah, here you do it differently: you translate the words into Dutch or French and say city = stad = ville, and that has a special meaning in Belgium), and any information not conveyed by the international tags should be complemented with country specific tags so you can take international tags + country specific tags and translate them to concepts in that country.
Tagging Belgium (or any other country) exclusively with international tags doesn't and will not work: each country has its own concepts it needs to map somehow and for which there are no international tags available. --Eimai 13:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
And again it is not up to the people who add the date to the project to decide how it is represented. There is a tag population=* which the rendering engines can use. Those who contribute are supposed to contribute data, not interpretations.
Except that mapping is interpreting. If you see a highway you need to interpret whether it's a tertiary or just unclassified for example, and different people will make different choices (purely adding data would mean someone counting the number of cars for example and stopping drivers to know the percentage of local traffic versus non-local etc. Oh, and finding out the official classification of the road which don't map to the highway tags btw). And since we'd like to have a map which is more or less consistent (read: usable) we make the interpretation rules (or better: interpretation "recommendations", since anyone can diverge from them if they see fit in certain situations). And it's these interpretation rules that have to take into account the international rules. But just see those tags as a basis for real country-specific tags. -Eimai 19:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
No it's not, these things are all in the law (geswestplan). If you can't be bothered to check that, then you should stay the hell away from OSM. And btw we are talking about places here, not roads. So I won't go further into this way you try to take this discussion. Also you talk about "we" as if you are the leader of some kind of clan, please specify which clan that is if there is one. And if your clan want's a readable map, then go write your own render software or find one that suits you. There are more renders then just mapnik and osmarender. I really have the idea, from what and how you write, that you are trying to manipulate everything in your personal interest and not in the interest of the openstreetmap project. That is wrong, just think about that.
I'm merely using the road analogy so you'd better understand that international tags shouldn't just map to country specific concepts by only translating and no interpreting of its general idea. There's no concept of trunk outside the UK, yet every country seams to use it, for example, the general idea of trunk being "most important roads that aren't motorways", which can be mapped to concepts in other countries (usually "autoweg"-like roads in Europe).
And I'm not going into the "me manipulating OSM" argument. The reason why I take on discussions like this is that this is a working way of tagging things in Belgium and that that shouldn't be just changed without a proper discussion, because by doing that you're invalidating a lot of tags already in OSM.
If you think your way of tagging is superior, then please go to the mailing list and start discussing things. Who knows, you might be able to convince me with some proper arguments. --Eimai 13:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Temporary table showing the situation concerning the name:*:* tag on facility municipalities on 22/01/2024. I made it so we have a clear view on the current mapping. I plan on removing this table again, once discussion has settled. --S8evq (talk) 08:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

element id name name:nl name:fr name:de
relation [1] 1204549 Bever Bever Biévène
relation [2] 78953 Drogenbos
relation [3] 2129894 Herstappe Herstappe Herstappe
relation [4] 78954 Kraainem Kraainem
relation [5] 78808 Linkebeek
relation [6] 405618 Mesen Mesen Messines
relation [7] 398192 Ronse Ronse Renaix
relation [8] 78796 Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse Sint-Genesius-Rode Rhode-Saint-Genèse
relation [9] 961207 Spiere-Helkijn Spiere-Helkijn Espierre-Helchin
relation [10] 404525 Voeren - Fourons Voeren Fourons Vuren
relation [11] 77186 Wemmel
relation [12] 78958 Wezembeek-Oppem
relation [13] 405621 Comines-Warneton Komen-Waasten Comines-Warneton
relation [14] 1412058 Enghien Edingen Enghien
relation [15] 1374657 Flobecq Vloesberg Flobecq
relation [16] 1920616 Mouscron Moeskroen Mouscron
relation [17] 2409000 Malmedy Malmedy
relation [18] 2402391 Waimes Waimes Weismes
relation [19] 2433429 Amel Amel Amblève Amel
relation [20] 2435409 Büllingen Bullange Büllingen
relation [21] 2436182 Burg-Reuland
relation [22] 2435381 Bütgenbach Butgenbach Bütgenbach
relation [23] 2400207 Eupen Eupen
relation [24] 2400116 Kelmis - La Calamine Kelmis La Calamine Kelmis
relation [25] 2400114 Lontzen Lontzen
relation [26] 2400181 Raeren Raeren
relation [27] 2433430 Sankt Vith Saint-Vith Sankt Vith
relation [28] 2241761 Mesen Mesen Messines
relation [29] 961190 Spiere Spiere Espierres
relation [30] 2241761 Mesen Mesen Messines
relation [31] 4497125 's-Gravenvoeren - Fouron-le-Comte 's-Gravenvoeren Fouron-le-Comte Grafenvuren
relation [32] 4497357 Sint-Martens-Voeren - Fouron-Saint-Martin Sint-Martens-Voeren Fouron-Saint-Martin
relation [33] 4497382 Teuven
relation [34] 4497381 Remersdaal - Rémersdael Remersdaal Rémersdael Remerstal
relation [35] 4497189 Sint-Pieters-Voeren Sint-Pieters-Voeren Fouron-Saint-Pierre
relation [36] 4497126 Moelingen - Mouland Moelingen Mouland Mölingen
relation [37] 11583050 Comines Komen Comines
relation [38] 11583051 Houthem Houthem Houthem
relation [39] 11583052 Bas-Warneton Neerwaasten Bas-Warneton
relation [40] 11583053 Warneton Waasten Warneton
relation [41] 11583054 Ploegsteert Ploegsteert Ploegsteert
relation [42] 11137263 Enghien Edingen Enghien
relation [43] 11137262 Petit-Enghien Lettelingen Petit-Enghien
relation [44] 11137287 Marcq Mark Marcq
relation [45] 11584137 Mouscron - Moeskroen Moeskroen Mouscron
relation [46] 11584136 Luingne - Lowingen Lowingen Luingne
relation [47] 11584135 Herseaux - Herzeeuw Herzeeuw Herseaux
relation [48] 11584134 Dottignies - Dottenijs Dottenijs Dottignies
relation [49] 12275879 Robertville In der Bivelt
relation [50] 11146246 Eupen Eupen Eupen
relation [51] 11146245 Kettenis
relation [52] 11198408 Kelmis Kelmis La Calamine
relation [53] 11198466 Neu-Moresnet
relation [54] 11198467 Hergenrath
relation [55] 12142314 Raeren
relation [56] 12142312 Eynatten
relation [57] 12142313 Hauset
node [58] 273054851 Bever - Biévène Bever Biévène
node [59] 251470263 Drogenbos
node [60] 279438049 Herstappe Herstappe Herstappe
node [61] 347083997 Kraainem Kraainem
node [62] 140389751 Linkebeek
node [63] 1678308936 Mesen - Messines Mesen Messines
node [64] 1678174119 Ronse - Renaix Ronse Renaix
node [65] 1678634235 Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse Sint-Genesius-Rode Rhode-Saint-Genèse
node [66] 720896704 Spiere - Espierres Spiere Espierres
node [67] 30119707 's-Gravenvoeren - Fouron-le-Comte 's-Gravenvoeren Fouron-le-Comte Grafenvuren
node [68] 344911882 Wemmel
node [69] 347082350 Wezembeek-Oppem
node [70] 1719301306 Comines-Warneton - Komen-Waasten Komen-Waasten Comines-Warneton
node [71] 61756241 Enghien - Edingen Edingen Enghien
node [72] 33540551 Flobecq - Vloesberg Vloesberg Flobecq
node [73] 539515887 Mouscron - Moeskroen Moeskroen Mouscron
node [74] 79348077 Malmedy Malmedy
node [75] 456954713 Waimes Waimes Weismes
node [76] 240047835 Amel Amblève Amel
node [77] 240043891 Büllingen Bullange Büllingen
node [78] 260087044 Burg-Reuland Burg-Reuland
node [79] 240026313 Bütgenbach Butgenbach Bütgenbach
node [80] 64801957 Eupen Eupen
node [81] 240061758 Kelmis - La Calamine Kelmis La Calamine Kelmis
node [82] 240128965 Lontzen Lontzen
node [83] 240097474 Raeren Raeren
node [84] 721081807 Sankt Vith Saint-Vith Sankt Vith