Talk:WikiProject Belgium/Conventions/Places

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Some things need to be sorted out here (add other problems to this list if you have some, discuss it on the Talk page):

  • When to use city/village/...? Maybe look up the population and follow the English conventions? Cities are formally declared "city" by the government in Belgium, but I don't think we can use that.
  • How to tag districts? There are no applicable tags. Maybe "quarter" could work, but quarters are just for small neighbourhoods, and give only names on the map when you zoom in a lot as a result. Not really a solution for Deurne for example, which has 70000 inhabitants. Should we discard the fact it's a districs and just use the village/city tags?
  • Merged municipalities, like Heusden-Zolder, Knokke-Heist, Langemark-Poelkapelle: what you sometimes see on maps is "Heusden-" on one part, and "Zolder" on the other one, but that would make the engine believe there's a municipality called "Heusden-"...
  • Similarly: municipalities like "Heuvelland" and "Zwalm": there's no village called like that, it's just the name given to the municipalities that contain a lot of villages.

If you use lists, then write lists. A list is not a complete story with a dot in front of it. It now looks like a 10y old wrote the page.

Places like Wilrijk are suburbs, not towns.

The place tag has always been tightly connected to the population of that place. As a result we apply tags that may not look correct but unfortunately it was started, all renderers now apply that, and we just have to follow it in Belgium. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I like to see links for such claims. I hear every where that you shouldn't care about how things are rendered, and you are telling the opposite. Here is my link: suburb. Wilrijk is one of the nine districts of the city Antwerp, therefore it is one of the nine suburbs in Antwerp and Belgium.
First of all, please sign your comments with ~~~~
For the link, go to place=* and read the core values section. So the tags always were applied according to the population (sure, they're quite arbitrary numbers), but it's like that now and if you want to change this you need to basically retag the entire world. We're not tagging for renderers, renderers have just adopted to the way the tags were defined. So we're tagging according to those definitions and not for the renderer, yet it may look like that of course. --Eimai 18:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
btw, if you tag Wilrijk as a suburb, then places like Mortsel or Boechout should be suburbs of Antwerp as well. Tricky, because Mortsel also became an official city ten years ago. The point that Wilrijk is different because it's a district is not valid: it wasn't 25 years ago and it didn't grow that spectacularly since. --Eimai 18:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I was under the impression that OSM is supposed to be about how things are in the present.
Again, sign your comments with ~~~~. If you want people to recognize you it's better to have a name attached to your comments.
And where did I say OSM isn't about tagging current situations? All I've said is that in the current situation, if you don't think about municipalities, Mortsel and Boechout are suburbs of Antwerp, just like Wilrijk is. So while you say you want the rules for place tags not to take into account municipalities, you still would want different tags for Mortsel, Boechout and Wilrijk. And where exactly would the suburbs stop? Hemiksem? Wommelgem? Wijnegem? Ranst?--Eimai 13:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Please people just stick to the official categorization of places. Cities are cities by royal solution not because you want them to be.

If you tag all official cities with a city tag you end up with over a hundred cities in Belgium. It's an international rule to tag only places with population over 100.000 as city, and it's better to just follow that so the map looks a bit consistent (read: the map of Belgium wouldn't look completely broken). We can always add our own set of tags for places with an official city status. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Links to backup your point please.
Links for what? The place=* page has the rule of "over 100.000 → city". The number of places that have the status of "city" in Belgium (133) can be found on wikipedia here --Eimai 18:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Read this, and find out that it is a general idea, just to hint you on how and where to look for information, and very dependent on the country. In the case of Belgium the rules are different.
And if you didn't read what I've written: the rules described on the page are not the same as the rules for Belgium. We bend the rules to fit in our country (that's what is meant with "general idea": tag more or less like this, rules may differ, but don't go too far from the idea), but we can't just discard international conventions and act like they don't exist. If you want to do that, then please make a complete library that all renderers, routers and other interpreters of OSM data can use to map each tag in each country to a certain concept so that you can at least interpret the OSM data. I'm sure the work will be appreciated, especially by me since I've always been a proponent of country specific tags, contrary to what you might think. I'm just also proponent of keeping international tags in mind, whereas you just wants to throw all that away. --Eimai 13:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Also municipalities are not named on any map, so not on OSM either. The list of municipalities on this page is only there because it shows which municipal capitals are cities and which are villages so you know which to tag as city and which to tag as town.

On the contrary. All maps I've seen have the names for "Heuvelland", "Zwalm", "Heusden-Zolder" or "Houthalen-Helchteren" etc. Albeit on some maps you get things like "Heusden-" on one part and "Zolder" on the other, but that's not really possible with OSM. If you look at NGI/IGN maps the names "Heusden-Zolder", "Heusden" and "Zolder" are all on the map (but for the new municipality names it's written in all caps whereas the others are just titlecase). This could also be solved with a special Belgian tag. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
You can't be serious, that is what the boundary tags are for.
Buy some maps then if you don't believe that the names like "Heuvelland" appear on it. It *is* a "place", meaning that there's a geographical location with that name. So we need to map it in some way to the place tags. --Eimai 18:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for making the assumption that I am not from this world and have never seen a map. Also commercial maps are irrelevant, they are renderings (interpretations) of data. Again contributors don't supply interpretations, they supply data.

It is not up to us to decide which names on what level and how big the names of places should be on the map. Our task is to correctly put data in the database.

We always have to blend our tags into the OSM tags a bit to make it a bit like the international usage. Like the highway classification that doesn't really reflect how things are officially done in Belgium, but our system is molded into the international model. The same with the place tags: we have to more or less discard some things to get it a bit more consistent with the rest of the world. But we can add our own different tags that could get used if we start rendering maps ourselves. --Eimai 18:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
No we don't. And we are not like the rest of the world, and there is no need to hide that.
Did I say we were? That's why we have our own rules to map things like places or highways. --Eimai 19:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmz, from reading the rest of your comments I can only conclude you contradict yourself.
No, you're not reading what I write. I'll repeat it again: international tagging rules give a general idea (you were correct assuming that above). Countries take those ideas to map their concepts to that general idea (ah, here you do it differently: you translate the words into Dutch or French and say city = stad = ville, and that has a special meaning in Belgium), and any information not conveyed by the international tags should be complemented with country specific tags so you can take international tags + country specific tags and translate them to concepts in that country.
Tagging Belgium (or any other country) exclusively with international tags doesn't and will not work: each country has its own concepts it needs to map somehow and for which there are no international tags available. --Eimai 13:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
And again it is not up to the people who add the date to the project to decide how it is represented. There is a tag population=* which the rendering engines can use. Those who contribute are supposed to contribute data, not interpretations.
Except that mapping is interpreting. If you see a highway you need to interpret whether it's a tertiary or just unclassified for example, and different people will make different choices (purely adding data would mean someone counting the number of cars for example and stopping drivers to know the percentage of local traffic versus non-local etc. Oh, and finding out the official classification of the road which don't map to the highway tags btw). And since we'd like to have a map which is more or less consistent (read: usable) we make the interpretation rules (or better: interpretation "recommendations", since anyone can diverge from them if they see fit in certain situations). And it's these interpretation rules that have to take into account the international rules. But just see those tags as a basis for real country-specific tags. -Eimai 19:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
No it's not, these things are all in the law (geswestplan). If you can't be bothered to check that, then you should stay the hell away from OSM. And btw we are talking about places here, not roads. So I won't go further into this way you try to take this discussion. Also you talk about "we" as if you are the leader of some kind of clan, please specify which clan that is if there is one. And if your clan want's a readable map, then go write your own render software or find one that suits you. There are more renders then just mapnik and osmarender. I really have the idea, from what and how you write, that you are trying to manipulate everything in your personal interest and not in the interest of the openstreetmap project. That is wrong, just think about that.
I'm merely using the road analogy so you'd better understand that international tags shouldn't just map to country specific concepts by only translating and no interpreting of its general idea. There's no concept of trunk outside the UK, yet every country seams to use it, for example, the general idea of trunk being "most important roads that aren't motorways", which can be mapped to concepts in other countries (usually "autoweg"-like roads in Europe).
And I'm not going into the "me manipulating OSM" argument. The reason why I take on discussions like this is that this is a working way of tagging things in Belgium and that that shouldn't be just changed without a proper discussion, because by doing that you're invalidating a lot of tags already in OSM.
If you think your way of tagging is superior, then please go to the mailing list and start discussing things. Who knows, you might be able to convince me with some proper arguments. --Eimai 13:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)