Talk:Tag:highway=bus guideway

"One could argue it should be highway=unclassified, access=no, psv=yes"

One could equally argue it should be railway=rail. :(

-- Richard occasionally aka MC Shona

Contents 1 Proposal, first try 2 Vote here, first try 3 Comments 4 Why is it tagged "highway" not "railway"? 5 Why it should be tagged as a "railway" 6 Voting, second try 7 Mapnik rendering

Proposal, first try

This is what you are voting on:

New tag value highway=busway which represents a road which is specifically constructed or modified to carry (often specially adapted) buses. Typically these are like rails or trough built in concrete, though sometimes they are just two parallel flat tracks. See links above for examples.

(An ordinary road which has traffic regulations limiting traffic only to buses is *not* a busway but would be represented as before, by access=no and psv=yes).

Vote here, first try

I approve this proposal David.earl 10:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal (It's more a railway than a highway) --PhilippeP 11:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. Morwen 11:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. OFE 12:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. MikeCollinson 12:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC) (I'll equally support railway=busway as it is a hybrid)

I approve this proposal. Milliams 14:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal. I think it should be mapped in the railway namespace, not in the highway namespace Coldtobi 17:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal, but would approve railway=busway -- Ulfl 23:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal.Dmgroom 01:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal and prefer my suggestion above. Chrismorl 10:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. -- Thewinch 17:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. --Deelkar (talk) 10:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. Rendering should make it obvious it is not navigable by normal vehicles. --Edgemaster 22:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. -- Socks 22:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal. I see the need for the tag, but busway is too ambiguous a tag, prone to be used incorrectly. --inas 22:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. There is no such thing near here, but I can see the point of it.--DrMark 23:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. --Colin Marquardt 23:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal, but would approve highway=bus_guideway --Cohort 23:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. Myfanwy 00:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. Latch 23:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. I have never seen such thing, funny idea!:) --Walley 15:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal, but would approve highway=bus_guideway --Hawke 11:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. --Geoff 13:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal, but would approve highway=bus_guideway --Cbm 15:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I disapprove this proposal, but would approve railway=busway -- 3247 18:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. Though I would also accept highway=bus_guideway--Milliams 21:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

A second voting round about the actual tag was started.

Comments

Am I correct in believing that the busway will take basically only the type of bus specifically designed to go through it? Morwen 12:02, 29 March 2007 (BST)

• yes - David.earl 00:21, 16 May 2007 (BST)

Only Guided buses can travel on the bus guide way in Edinburgh. It is proposed to be turned into a tram route in the future. Smsm1 14:08, 5 May 2007 (BST)

I think "busway" would be a better value: shorter and easier to understand. In Los Angeles (CA, USA) the Orange line is an example of a busway, already mapped as such. User:blarson 23:45 29 March 2007 (PDT)

• I don't really care much what the tag value is so long as it isn't confused with an ordinary stretch of road which happens to be permitted access for buses only. These things are more like light rail in construction. If someone's already used an appropriate tag, then fine, let's adopt it. Proposal altered accordingly. David.earl 00:21, 16 May 2007 (BST)

• Agreed, we have one in Ipswich,UK that I have already mapped (but not tagged properly). It has concrete rails and the buses need little boogie wheels on the side of the front wheels Peter Miller 6:23 12th June.

• yes, that's it. The Cambridge one is similar, but much longer. David.earl 10:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There are similar ways in Seattle, Washington, US --Cohort 23:03, 21 May 2007 (BST)

I am currently seeking to tag the Adelaide O-Bahn and need a tag.
What about a new key: busway
and values: guided, lane (with potential for more to be added later)
Justcameron 13:16, 22 September 2007 (BST)

• A bus guideway is significantly different from a bus lane or road restricted to buses. It's a cross between a railway and a road, physically different, whereas a bus lane/road is just an ordinary road with restrictions on what traffic is permitted to use it. David.earl 10:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• "These things are more like light rail in construction" ... "It is proposed to be turned into a tram route in the future" ... "A bus guideway is significantly different from a bus lane or road restricted to buses" ... "It has concrete rails " ... "I suggest it is more like a railway than a road, and should therefore use the dashed line we use for railways" ...

For me it's definitively not a highway but a railway --PhilippeP 15:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Can my thought be clarified that this is for veichles ('busses') that use normal roads (with no sort of track) part of the route, but also use this 'bus guideway'? So such busses are like trams but when they join roads they are freeeee?! - LastGrape 20:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• yes. David.earl 19:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Locally, we have many busways - but these are bus/emergency vehicle only roads, not what is described here. This is going to need a very good description to differentiate it from the other use of the word. I think busway is too generic a term for this use. DancingFool 02:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• 'highway=busway' some people might see the tagging and try to reuse it for bus lanes on normal roads without realising about all the track stuff. Ojw 08:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• The name busways is used in Runcorn (NW England) for a specially constructed set of roads, without any extra technology, used only by buses. It would be confusing to have a busway tag which did not apply to them. I would prefer that highway=busway was for a way dedicated to buses that could also use normal roads. The technology would be described in a second tag. This is likely to cover the range from nothing, through a buried cable, to intrusive mechanical constructs like channels. Making a dividing line between highway=classified, access=no, psv=yes and highway=busway some way through this continuum is not helpful. It would be better instead to extend highway=busway to ordinary roads dedicated to buses, making it consistent with highway=pedestrian. Chrismorl 10:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• That's why I originally proposed bus_guideway, but was shot down over that. We already have the means to tag a road which is restricted to buses: highway=unclassified (or whatever), access=no, psv=yes.

• I also think that bus_guideway is less likely to be confused than busway. I think it is inevitable that people will use busway for bus only roads incorrectly. Can we restructure the voting, so people can vote for one of the options here. busway, or bus_guideway. railway or highway. Then the one with the most votes wins. Noone seems to disagree with the requirement for the tag, only with what it is called. --inas 22:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is it tagged "highway" not "railway"?

It's very much a hybrid, and there isn't really anything else like it. It is like a railway in that it has tracks, but it also has a road surface on which normal wheels run, and the stops are more like tram stops. But the vehicles leave the track at its ends to operate on normal roads - they are just normal buses with these small horizontal adapter wheels added. The vehicles aren't restricted to the guideway like trains and trams.

Other similar systems use optical or electronic guidance rather than physical constraints. The roadway has a cable which the bus picks up signals from, or a painted line which a sensor under the bus detects, to keep it running straight.

But the key thing which makes it a highway for me is that it has junctions with ordinary roads operated to the same rules as roads - traffic signals, signage and so on, and will have road signs on the guideway.

• Remark against: We have railway=tram, which is often also at the same level as the street, share traffic signals and so on. So this argument doesn't really count IMHO. This bus_guideway sounds a lot like a tram that can "leave it's rails". So the "railway part" should be tagged as such IMHO. -- Ulfl 14:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

• Remark for it: On a busway, I could drive with my car/bike, on a railway I can't do that. So I would say it is more like a road than train track. --Ckruetze 12:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
• WRONG Ckruetze if you check out the links you will see that you can NOT cycle on a guideway - it is intended for fast safe movement of busses only Lsces 10:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
• WRONG Lsces if you check out the links you will see for example this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fastway.JPG Or if you want another picture check this one out http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/transport/guided/cycling.htm I know you are not ment to cycle on them and I know that they are ment for "fast safe movement of busses" but at least on some of them you can cycle. It is probably illegal and I won't do it, but we are talking about clasifications and to me this is more like a road then train track. --Ckruetze 23:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The Cambridgeshire one has a separate cycleway alongside (actually using a track provided for maintenance). The guideway itself is not really physically capable of taking a car - certainly not a truck. You could I suppose physically ride a bike along it, or get some very small cars into the channel, but it would be highly dangerous and illegal - it's like saying you could ride a bike along an airport runway - physically possible but not advisable! There are other designs where the track is not a trough but say two parallel concrete paths which take the ordinary bus wheels and are guided by the driver, and others again where the surface is similar but guidance is provided by a sensor following a line painted on the surface.

Why it should be tagged as a "railway"

Because it is 'guided' and not 'free' so simple as that --PhilippeP 08:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Because it can't be used by vehicles not designed for this type of guided way (i.e. it's not a "road"). Because some railway=subway lines run on similar tracks (e.g. in Paris). Because there are other hybrid vehicles that can run on different types of ways, e.g. railway=rail and railway=tram, railway=rail and highway=*, or highway=* and waterway=*. -- 3247 18:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this highlight the different views? Anything that provides a tracked way should be 'railway', anything that provides a generally usable surface but to which other restrictions are applied should be a 'highway' Lsces 10:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• these guides buslanes are hybrids between a normal bus ans a tram. To indentify the difference between such guided and normal buslanes, we should tag the normale buslane as "highway=*" and these guides buslanes (better a tram with tires) as "railway=*"! --Cbm 23:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Voting, second try

Voting closed, highway=bus_guideway approved -- Ulfl 02:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

First voting round moved to the discussions page.

While the need for this feature seems undisputed after the first voting, the actual tag to use wasn't.

To get a better understanding what the best tag for this proposal is, on this second voting round there are three tags to vote for. We can later "sum up" and see what the majority think is best (or at least can live with).

You can approve (good idea), disapprove (bad idea) or being neutral (can live with it) each of them independently.

highway=busway	highway=bus_guideway	railway=busway	comment	voter
disapprove	neutral	approve	highway=busway will be confused with normal bus lanes	Ulfl 06:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	neutral	approve		--Polyglot 20:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
neutral	neutral	approve		MikeCollinson 10:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	neutral	approve		Gyrbo 10:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	neutral	approve		Cartinus 11:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	disapprove	Some bus guideways also have railways embedded in them	Cohort 13:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	disapprove	approve	highway=busway should only be for normal buslanes	--Cbm 13:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	neutral	I prefer highway over railway, but agree it should be bus_guideway instead of just busway	--Deelkar (talk) 16:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
neutral	approve	disapprove		--Geoff 18:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	disapprove		--inas 21:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
approve	approve	disapprove		--Milliams 21:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
approve	approve	disapprove		--Myfanwy 00:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
neutral	approve	disapprove		--David.earl 09:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	neutral	To me a busway is just highway=*, access=psv, so guideway is best if the highway tag is used	--DavidDean 09:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	disapprove	approve	FOR THE SORT OF GUIDED TRACKS BEING DESCRIBED - ones where there is NO road surface	Lsces 10:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	disapprove		Chrismorl 13:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	disapprove		Hawke 17:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	neutral		Dalkvist 17:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
neutral	approve	neutral		Colin Marquardt 18:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	disapprove		--Ckruetze 23:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
approve	disapprove	disapprove		--Walley 17:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	disapprove	approve		--PhilippeP 18:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
disapprove	approve	approve	Highway = busway implies a normal road limited to buses, like those in Runcorn, UK	--Thewanderer 22:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The following was voted:

highway=busway approve=3 disapprove=16 neutral=4

highway=bus_guideway approve=14 disapprove=4 neutral=5

railway=busway approve=9 disapprove=10 neutral=4

Now, how to sum up this? Simply using +1 for approval, 0 for neutral and -1 for disapproval, this sums up to:

highway=busway -> -13 highway=bus_guideway -> +10 railway=busway -> -1

So all in all, highway=bus_guideway seems to be the best we can get, at least most people can seem to live with it. Ulfl 02:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Mapnik rendering

Does anyone know what guided busways will look like (in Mapnik, specifically) once constructed? The Cambs one seems to be invisible, but I'm guessing that's something to do with the construction=* key. Kevin Steinhardt 14:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• yes - it is still construction as at October 25 2009. The contractors will hand over the northern section to the County Council at the end of October 2009 and it will open in late November, and I'll switch it shortly before the opening - mayne a few days before so we can make some mileage from it. Here's a sample rendering of what it will look like: