Category talk:Tag descriptions by group

Strange name

I do not understand why this category is named Category:Tag descriptions by group. What group is it refering to? It seems to be a simple alphabeticaly sorted list.

Isn't the name of this category swapped with Category:Tag descriptions by key? Chrabros (talk) 15:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

No: "group" is intended to be thematic (and also translatable). They'll will contain multiple keys, tags, values, or other pages related to a common topic (including guidelines or specific projects and tools).

Groups will be associate dto their own category with the same name. The value given does not have to be technical just like English-only keys and values in "Tag:*" page and "Key:*" pages.

So a group can be any convenient category (there are some "Keys per group" categories but this is much more experimental and so convenient to navigate and probably too restrictive if thery are limited tu just tag description pages or value description pages).

Example of group name: "Addresses" (not the same as "Key:addr or "Tag:addr=*" pages named in English only or using some abbreviations)

If you see this category overpopulated and looking much like "Tag descriptions by key", it is only because this is a fallback when no specific subcategory per group is found here — Verdy_p ^(talk) 22:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for explanation.

I have created a new categories and it works now and it is evident how it was meant.

Please see Category:Tag_descriptions_for_group_"Tourism" and Category:Cs:Popisy_značek_skupiny_"Tourism" and check if you want to add something before I use them as a example to create similar others.

But first I would like to ask you to fix an error in categorization of TagDescription and ValueDescription.

It seems that the author has forgotten something and the group categories are case sensitive.

Can you please fix it? I would like to have them with first letter capitalized as it is common on this wiki.

I am not that good with templates so I would probably screw something up.

Thanks in advance.

Chrabros (talk) 16:20, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

group names themselves are case sensitive in descriptions or displayed values, they will be using capitals for nouns only in German, not for most languages; only the category name will use the initial capital (even after a language code prefix which is not one of the 7 dedicated capitalized namespaces DE,ES,FR,IT,JA,NL,RU). I'd like to see examples where this hurts (but don't assume that capitalizing unconditionnally for all languages is correct, when it is grammatically dependant). — Verdy_p ^(talk) 23:42, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Here it hurts: Category:Key descriptions by group. There will be a mixture of categories with letters with different cases.

For example when group=accessibility it should create category with Accessibility Chrabros (talk) 23:50, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

So surprisngly it seems you have chosen to walk the more complicated way. Instead of changing one template you need to chnage thousands of pages now.

Also you should note that vast majority of pages are written as Group and not group.

And template {{Description}} displays Group as well so users are used to this capitalization.

This will create many errors in the future.

Chrabros (talk) 05:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

No! Reversing this to use capitals would have required changing thousands pages to be consistant. There were only a few duplicate categories created and they are all fixed now).

Since the begining all group names were lowercase. The errors creating are only very recent (including from you, in the "tourism" group for which you used "Tourism" instead).

For now there's no need to change it, it has always worked since the begining with lowercase group names in category names — Verdy_p ^(talk) 22:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point. The vast majority of tags and keys use group with the first capital letter (Group). But these tags and keys are sorted to those categories properly only when written all lowercase (group). The problem is that they are virtually non-existent. How do you want to resolve this? Chrabros (talk) 23:36, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

They "display" only capital letters in their infobox but all categories 'Category:Tag description in group "groupname"' are using lowercase since ever (except a few exceptions created by duplicates). So this concerns tens of thousands existing pages, the simplest was to keep these names in lowercase. This does not affect how infoboxes are displaying the group name isolately.

I made the simplest solution that will not require updating many pages, and merged the few duplicate categories that existed with both letter case versions (but where the group name is not used in isolation but as part of the category name.

This also does not affect categories named simply with their initial capital as they are named only with the group name is isolation: these categories are still capitalized like everywhere, but you don't need to change the parameter oif templates to reflect this. And remember: group names ARE translatable, they don't have to be the internal key or value used in OSM tags only in British English (or otherwise in another language when it is not translatable at all in British English for some region-specific tags). — Verdy_p ^(talk) 23:50, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

We have exactly the same situation for state=* values used by templates (only in English, but translated elsewhere so that they display translated values in infoboxes): the categories using status values are using them as well in lowercase as they are not standalone in caterogies using them.

These group names are not warrantied to be used ONLY in isolation (and effectively it is not the case here), and because they are also translatable their capitalization will follow the capitalization rules ãppropriate of each language (so we'll not force them to use capitalized initial). — Verdy_p ^(talk) 23:54, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Have you so far noticed the fact that those categories are almost EMPTY? (Except for tourism and history which you have edited manually)

If you insist on having the categories in lowercase. Fine. But still you have to change {{Description}} to lowercase their group automatically or you need to edit all tag and key pages to do the same. Chrabros (talk) 00:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Lowercaseing automatically cannot be done, this will be wrong for languages that have case distinctions. I remind again that these group names are translatable (see examples in Japanese). — Verdy_p ^(talk) 14:45, 14 March 2017 (UTC)