Talk:OpenRailwayMap/Signals in Italy
Proposal for Italian signal suggestions
I saw the nice tagging proposal for Italian signals on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Signals_in_Italy.
I have a few suggestions for the tagging scheme. Most importantly to let the tagging match the general signal tagging scheme documented in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dsignal.
1. Signals should have a railway:signal:*:form tag. Generally this is `sign` for signs, and `light` for lights. So main signals would have `railway:signal:main:form = light`.
2. Level crossing signals. The tag `railway:signal:main:LC`. Can this be changed to a `railway:signal:crossing=*` tag? Same for the `railway:signal:main=IT_CT` and `railway:signal:distant=IT_CT` tags.
3. Speed limits: `railway:signal:main:triangle`. Can this tag be changed to `railway:signal:speed_limit` (speed limit) and `railway:signal:speed_limit_distant` for speed limits and distant speed limits respectively?
4. Lit letters on main signals: are these routing signals? The tag `railway:signal:main:lit_letter` could then be `railway:signal:route=*` instead, with `railway:signal:route:states` indicating the states of the routing signal. Blinking is indicated with `(A)` for a blinking A signal, see the French tagging scheme for blinking signal states in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:railway:signal:distant:states.
5. Departure signals: Can the tag `railway:signal:minor=IT_PAR` be changed to `railway:signal:departure=IT_PAR`?
--Hiddewie (talk) 11:46, 19 July 2025 (UTC)
I'll answer you by points that is probably clearer.
1. You are right, I totally missed that tag and I'll add it ASAP in every signal.
2. It might be a good idea. So, then the values might be IT_1V for the standard shape signals, IT_CT for "main" Christmas tree signals. For distant signals then it might be railway:signal:crossing_distant= (from French and NL wiki) and IT_D_CT as value to differentiate it from the main one. IT_1V can be another value for distant crossing signals. I'd probably add also the railway:signal:crossing_info=IT_PL.
3. Yeah, triangles are at some point just speed limits for all the itineraries out of that track, so it might be best to tag them as speed limits in the same node of the main signal. There are no distant indicators in this case. Rappels would also fall in this category.
4. Lit letters are actually not route signals, but rather complementary information to the main signal. For example, "T" basically means "Phone me" to the train conductor from the traffic control room, other have different meanings but never on routes. Routes are panels with numbers, what now is indicated as "railway:signal:main:direction=*", so it might be the case to transform it to "railway:signal:route=*" with "railway:signal:route:states" but to be tagged on the same node. in this case for blinking letters it would be fine the () scheme, but I'm not sure how it would work with the main signal states, where it's important to distinguish blinking together vs blinking alternating. Maybe (Y+G) could mean together and (Y)+(G) alternating.
5. I think that it might be possible and correct, but as they aren't a signal by their own, nor commanded by someone, at the time I preferred to tag as minor. They are basically repeaters that only turn on (two white lights) when the main signal is somehow permissive. At the same time, they aren't repeaters as the real repeaters signal have a different type and they show the same exact states of the main one.
I'll change the page to match your suggestions except the letters part as I don’t think it is correct, but I'll surely modify the one for the numbers.
--AwFi (talk) 13:43, 19 July 2025 (UTC)
Thank you, very nice!
I will also work on integrating the signal tagging scheme into the OpenRailwayMap on https://openrailwaymap.app/, so we can see the signals being rendered on the map!
There are quite some signals tagged in Italy already, but they do not use the proposed scheme yet (https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/28aw).
--Hiddewie (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2025 (UTC)
Some more questions:
- Is it possible to have all signals receive the `IT:` prefix instead of `IT_` prefix? This matches the other countries, and also JOSM validation to have the country-specific prefix before `:`.
- Main signals: avvio and rappel: can these states be encoded in the main signal states, instead of additional tags? Same for avvio on departure signals. Also see how the Polish signalling system tags the light bars below the main signal in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Pl:OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_Poland/Signals_and_displays#Semafory_%C5%9Bwietlne.
- Main signals: avanzamento seems to be a substitute signal, could those be tagged using `railway:signal:main:substitute_signal` like in other countries?
- `railway:signal:main:pan_letter`: is this the same as a signal caption, usually tagged as `railway:signal:main:caption`?
- `railway:signal:main:arrow`: is an arrow equal to the square shape? Also this seems to be equivalent to the required tag `railway:signal:position=right` (solves this both for main and distant signals).
- crossing signal: how is the main christmas tree signal `IT_CT` different from the distant level crossing signal `IT_D_CT`?
Thanks
--Hiddewie (talk) 19:02, 28 July 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll answer in order:
- Sure, I'll modify that and also modify the tags that are already in the map.
- I think it can be done. I've separated them because conceptually they are not states of the signal but rather another signal that overrides the main signal. This is done when the main signal can't be put in a permissive state but the route is free and can be done with some precautions. So the state in those cases would be R-Avvio or R-Avanzamento". You can check this link https://www.segnalifs.it/sfi/it/sa/2016_sa_immagini_1ctg.htm at 1a and 1b if you want to understand better. Sadly It's only in italian but with google translate it still seems understandable to me. Just remeber that "AdC" is the train driver and "RdC"/"DCO"/"DM" is the person that manages the train circulation, they gets changed on the translation. also PL is level crossing and PBA is an automatic block section, BA is automatic block.
- I'm not sure what you mean with substitute signals. like the "avvio" signals are used to pass a red signal when it can't be put in a permissive state. Avvio is for departing stations and going to the line, Avanzamento is for entering a station usually. (2a and 2b of the previous site)
- No it's not a signal caption, it is like the lit letters of before. Lit letters are used for temporary communications and states, while letters on a panel are for auxiliary indications that are always true. "P" is the most common example, means that under some circumstances the signal can be passed even if red, obviusly with some limitations and a procedure to do, but that always happens. it would be a lit_letter if it was only temporary.
- The arrow is only there if the shape is shape is square (so signal on the right of the track), but the opposite is not always true as the arrows are used only if it's possible to misread the signal with another one close to the correct one (usually). Distant signals never have those arrows, as they are, afaik, only in stations.
- In general for distant signals the pole is painted black and white but in this case it's not, both have the same pole. The main difference is the shape of the panel, for distant is kind of a triangle (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Railway_signals_in_Cavarzere.jpg) with the three bottom and horizontal lights yellow and the two vertical green. For the main one the shape is a square and the horizontal lights are red instead of yellow, green ones are the same (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Transponder_SSC_protezione_PL.jpg). They both only have the two states: yellow/red or green.
Italian signalling is very confusing, I'm sorry if im not very clear.
In addition it might be better to also add ects signals as they are increasingly popular. I'm also trying to get infomations on tram signals, those sadly vary by city so I'm trying to sort them out as I only know Turin ones.
Let me know what you think
--AwFi (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2025 (UTC)
I understood what substitute_signal and yes, they are something like that but you still need to call the responsible of the train circulation, so in a general way say that they are substitute signals. I'll change the page accordingly, when both are present I'd just add them with a ";" separator. The letters on the panel, after reading the general documentation on signals, are only "P" actually so permissivive signals. I'd tag those as substitute signals too. Lit letters are still something I can't find in other pages, as they aren't route indicators --AwFi (talk) 08:50, 29 July 2025 (UTC)
Thank you, thanks for the responses and consideration. I am mostly trying to understand the tagging correctly, including the wiki and official sources indeed.
I am working on integrating the Italian signalling in https://github.com/hiddewie/OpenRailwayMap-vector/pull/502. When the changes are rolled out you can view them on https://openrailwaymap.app/.