Talk:Tag:power=substation

From OpenStreetMap Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Should tag page replace the conceptual page ?

This is a tag page, for power=substation, and pretty all the content of Substation refinement was included into it.
It's actually the case for power=transformer which do already have its own page.
Shouldn't we split content in more than one page ?
Nevertheless I agree that "subkeys" like substation=* or transformer=* can be in power=substation or power=transformer. It contribute to get content easily.
This question is especially for transformers which can be encountered standalone worldwide. It's not so true for converters, compensators, etc... Fanfouer (talk) 21:19, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I think it gets confusing if we split up the page to much. An own page for power=transformer is ok and necessary, I think. For the other subkeys, which don't stand alone you can make redirects which link to the correspondent part of this page. --hendrik-17(talk) 16:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Ok for confusion in case of too big splitting. A page for power=transformer is enough, thus I will replace content by a link to that tag page. Fanfouer (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I would prefer to discuss such things before the single proposal is/was cut into multiple pieces! For transformers it may be ok, definitely not for the other features of substations. Otherwise it will just cause confusion as those features are intimidely related to substations and you probably would like to consult the main substation page for the context. I have created redirect pages for all the new power=* features, but not yet for all the auxiliary tags. --polderrunner (talk) 20:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Are kiosks only transformers or complete substation ?

When adding proposal example in this tag page, I moved the kiosk example to power=substation since I thought using power=transformer was a mistake.
It seems it wasn't.
My point is that I saw kiosks with all the stuff a standard substation has : switches, control equipment and a transformer obviously.
Should we use power=transformer for such a configuration ? Fanfouer (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

In Germany most kiosks have the standard substation equipment. Therefore I don't think that power=transformer does really fit, because in my opinion this only refers to the transformer itself (a device transfering energy). This kiosks are called "Ortsnetzstation" in Germany. In my region the old tag power=sub_station was used to distinguish them from the bigger substations ("Umspannwerke"), which wher mostly tagged as power=station.
It may have been a mistake not to reserve a "substation" value just for the minor distribution substations. Now substation=distributed is defined as suitable for substations handling voltages less than 100 kv and not just substations at the last level of voltage transforming before the consumer. This interpretation is consistent with the IEC definitions. However, I may be tempted to modify the scheme a bit "post vote". Either we should introduce a new substation value for minor substation or restrict the value "distribution" to only mean the last level transformation (typically with a high voltage of about 10 kV). Then such small substations can be unambiguously identified as such. However, that would mean that a lot of 'my' 60/10 kV substations are now wrongly tagged! What do you think? It is still time to change that. --polderrunner (talk) 20:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
In France, both kiosk and "house" minor substation handle the same voltage : 20 kV. There's no reason to distinguish them for me. I use to tag > 40 kV substations with substation=transmission and <= 40 kV with substation=distribution.
In all network models you'll find only two layers : transmission and distribution, no need for me to introduce substation=distributed IMHO.
The kiosk example should be tagged with power=substation + substation=distribution + voltage=10000. Sounds good ? Fanfouer (talk) 21:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that it requires the mapper to know the voltage (which is often not indicated on the building). Don't expect mappers to know the medium voltage level in the area. Using the 'distribution' value would make it much easier for mappers. Then you can remap those "Trafohäuschen" with power=substation + substation=distribution without knowing more than that it is a "Trafohäuschen". Actually I can't see the value of using it on the second level substations (50-90 kV) as we are much more likely to know the voltage of those. At least for rendering I don't need the 'distribution' value. But I will await opinions from others. --polderrunner (talk) 21:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
We mainly agree about that.
To say what I explained about > 40 kV and < 40 kV in other words : > 40 kV substations are often outdoor with massive high voltage stuff, whereas < 40 kV are indoor with pretty small surfaces. Biggest exception are substations with gas insulation... but "common mappers" won't deal with it. Fanfouer (talk) 11:16, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I have introduced the new attribute substation=minor_distribution which hopefully fully solves this problem. At the same time I have removed the recommendation to tag small substations as 'transformers' (except for pole mounted transformers). --polderrunner (talk) 21:21, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

This sounds very good for me --hendrik-17(talk) 21:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Substation Wateringen near The Hague

Why is that tagged power=substation (ok) ... location=indoor (?)

but not

power=substation ... building=yes

? --Hfst (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

In this case the substation covers a larger area than the building itself (you will notice a fence around the building on the photo). The location=indoor tag does not imply that the substation object is just a building although this will often be the case. The tag defines the substation as being substantially indoor but certain components, in particular transformers, may be outside. In the present case no building has actually been mapped which should be improved. --polderrunner (talk) 21:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Tagging of this

2007-06_Bernburg_03.jpg

Is this also power=substation? --Hfst (talk) 21:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Bad link, could you please fix it? --polderrunner (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

done--Hfst (talk) 08:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

For me it looks like a power=substation. I would aditionally add the tag substation=distribution, the operator and maybe location=indoor (?). --hendrik-17(talk) 19:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, definitely tag it as power=substation. The Danger, high voltage sign on the door is the give-away. Considering the substation=distribution attribute: I'm considering introducing a new value substation=minor_distribution for small substations supplying low voltage to households (a similar tag was suggested on the Tagging mailing list some time ago, see [1]). You may see it appear on the feature page soon. Until then use substation=distribution. (the substation=minor_distribution attribute is now recommended) --polderrunner (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Should it also be tagged with "building=yes"?--Hfst (talk) 19:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

In this case yes. For a small 'kiosk' type substation in a prefab metal/wood/concrete enclosure I probably wouldn't use the building tag. However, in the Netherlands such substations actually have addresses so tagging them as buildings seems reasonable. I will leave it to the discretion of the mapper whether a given minor substation is tagged as a building or not. --polderrunner (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2013 (UTC)


This (2007-06_Bernburg_03.jpg which was discussed here) type of minor_distribution substation is quite common in Germany – at least in the area of Frankfurt am Main. Since its size is a considerable amount bigger that File:10kV trafo kiosk.jpg, could be please also add it as an example to the Tag:power=substation#Examples list? What I am interested in is especially the suitable location=* tag for it. From the discussion here it seems that polderrunner classifies it as location=indoor . I myself would (and always have) used location=indoor, too. I think that it differs from the location=kiosk ones essentially due to being not "prefabricated" as a whole. Likely the walls and roof are, but I guess not all parts. And it is a building=* which has a real door and likely some free space inside where a technician could walk. All in all, I would suggest to add the following entries to the list of examples. The second one shows a newer, currently used type of station.

Suggested additions:

Photo Tagging Mapnik Note
Transformer in a small building Areapower=substation
substation=minor_distribution
location=indoor
Transformer in a small walk-in building.
compact transformer, Germany Nodepower=substation
substation=minor_distribution
location=kiosk
An example of a small kiosk type substation. It is a prefabricated enclosure (about 1.5 m high) – not possible to walk in for a technician.

By the way: The example list's last entry (File:Service_building.png) should get a location=indoor tag, too.

Do you agree? Comments please!

--Aseerel4c26 (talk) 11:09, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with these additions. Especially as File:2007-06_Bernburg_03.jpg is in between the current examples of indoor / kiosk this helps to distinguish them. I used to tag it as location=kiosk as there was no good example, but the previous discussion with Aseerel4c26 convinced me otherwise --Athalis (talk) 11:45, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Status of support in various tools

Please keep this part of the discussion page up to date with the status of support for this tagging scheme in the various OSM tools.

JOSM

JOSM 6502 (2013-12-19) has an icon for the old sub_station and transformer tags, but none for the new tags. There are no presets for either the old or the new tagging scheme. Jbohmdk 22:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

JOSM 6657 (2014-01-09) has an icon for power=substation. There are new presets since JOSM 6662. For more progress on the new tags see http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/9169 Aceman444 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Merkaator

(unknown)

HTML editor on www.openstreetmap.org

(unknown)

Mapnik

I guess it has what the page itself shows, for now.

OsmAnd

(unknown)

Frequency - yes or no?

Hi,

I've noticed that frequency=*, while not being listed on this page, is included in the JOSM-preset for substations. If you take a look at taginfo, there are about 15k cases of this tag being used in combination with power=substation, which is not exactly rare. So the question is, what to do? Does it make sense to tag the frequency on the substation itself? I think, if there is no undeniable counterargument, frequency=* should probably get listed as it's de facto in use, for comparison the combination of power=substation & voltage=* can be found about 35k times (see link to taginfo above).

So, what do you think? --TOGA (talk) 21:20, 13 June 2016 (UTC)