Proposal talk:Key:gluten free

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This tag belongs to diet=* and as we do only have little usage so far and the tag was never discussed, this page should be deleted. --Skyper 15:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree. At the very least it should be moved and turned into a proposal draft - but ultimately it makes no sense for the tags to exist in parallel and diet:*=* is approved. --Tordanik 17:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I had move it but SK53 did revert it. --Skyper 21:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
The use of this key likely predates the wiki proposal process, so moving it to the proposal section would be misleading IMO. Perhaps you need a section for keys that are just used, like say amenity=pub and highway=motorway? --EdLoach (talk) 20:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
This does not fall in the same category as amenity=pub or highway=motorway. Those are established tags with no serious competition and should simply be documented normally. But this gluten_free key is just an idea by a few people that has not (yet?) taken off. I think a proposal page does not necessarily imply an intent to follow the proposal process. --Tordanik 21:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
As I have stated elsewhere I do not recognise the proposal/approval process. This is not official in way shape or form, and has shown itself to be widely open to abuse, and of little relevance for mapping (other than to confuse or deter newcomers).
I use the wiki to document a tag as used. The tagging of establishments which offer suitable food for coeliacs is important for such people, but not straightforward because there is in effect a gradation from 'there is at least one dish on the menu which will not make you ill' to 'there are many gluten free dishes, aware serving staff, and the kitchen can modify dishes to order'. It is therefore highly appropriate that these issues be documented separately. I raised the issue as to why I thought a diet:gluten_free tag was inappropriate long before such a tag was even proposed. I stand by what I said then.
The way I see it, wide usage can very well move a tag from "Proposed" to the main Key name space without ever going through a vote. But I really would like they "Key" name space reserved for those tags that are *either* widely used *or* at least agreed to be useful after some discussion; the "gluten_free" tag is neither. Being a "proposed" tag does not mean it cannot be used (e.g. the "proposed" addr:place is meanwhile used more than 300k times). --Frederik Ramm (talk) 22:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
The problem then though is deciding on a tag by tag basis what defines widely used. Is it based on geographic usage, number of mappers, how often the thing it represents exists in reality (even if there is some way of determining that)? If I invented a tag quarry=diamonds for an open cast diamond mine, then 1 or 2 uses would probably mean it is widely used (if as I'm guessing there aren't many open cast diamond mines in the world). For something like shop=secondhand (for shops that sell secondhand stuff) then that figure would be much higher. And for other items higher still. --EdLoach (talk) 08:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Judging on figures only does not work (imports and the number of different users adding that key need to be taken into account). For tags which will be low on numbers world-wide this means that their status will always be proposed only. For subtags this might be different. Overall, you won`t have that many problems to get a key accepted after a positive result of a discussion on tagging@. --Skyper 14:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
How an earth can people tell if a tag is in use if only certain tags are allowed in the Key namespace. To me this is entirely counter-intuitive. The fact that no-one has bothered to add a page for widely used tags in the Key namespace is not a reason to use it. I think I will not bother with tagging any dietary information on OpenStreetMap in future and I will actively discourage people with Coeliac's disease from using OSM for information which might help them enjoy eating out without seriously affecting their health because 'it is a pet feature'. I have better things to do than bother with the wiki, now I won't bother at all, there is no point trying to persuade people that their hugely complicated colonic tagging scheme is no better than something simpler. SK53 (talk) 13:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I do not understand your reactions. Yeah, Frederik's comment was not nice, but your reactions in advance were not either. Do not forget that I do care about this issue and just wanted to clean up to get a working, common tagging system. But instead of getting this right and maybe writing a patch for JOSM to add it to presets, I get obstacles put in my way and once more I am disappointed about an user and his reaction plus his social lacks in communication. --Skyper 14:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)