Talk:Tag:bicycle=dismount

Hi, after reading this article with all the arguments against it's own purpose I have to say that I still don't get why one should stick to bicycle=no. bicycle=dismount is in my opinion a perfect fit for a section of a biking lane, where you are only allowed to push the bike. Why should you use a tag instead which also implements that bicycles are forbidden at all? Every routing engine is excluding a knot with this tag because it is a main purpose of the bicycle=no tag.

best regards Christian

"Every routing engine is excluding a knot with this tag" can you clarify what you mean by that? Do you mean that bicycle routing treats nodes with bicycle=no as barriers? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

"bicycle=dismount is in my opinion a perfect fit for a section of a biking lane, where you are only allowed to push the bike" - it is fine to use it this way - the only problem is when someone claims that bicycle=no in practice has different meaning than bicycle=dismount Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

You made this comment with edit description "content of article is misleading" - which specific part is misleading? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 15:31, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi and thank you for the fast response. I made some testing with OsmAnd and OSRM and both are treating nodes with bicycle=no as barriers.

Here a bridge tagged with bicycle=no

https://routing.openstreetmap.de/?z=18&center=53.307365%2C13.148564&loc=53.306826%2C13.146837&loc=53.307663%2C13.149675&hl=en&alt=0&srv=1

and a bridge with bicycle=dismount

https://routing.openstreetmap.de/?z=16&center=53.551476%2C13.247967&loc=53.547805%2C13.250220&loc=53.554943%2C13.244920&hl=en&alt=0&srv=1

I would say the article is misleading mainly in it's conclusion that bicycle=no is the common way of tagging the scenario because it has a higher usage statistic. I would say the higher number is due to a broader use case. I learned this topic is well discussed but is it wrong to use bicycle=no for a scenario where even pushing the bike is not allowed? I'd say a lot of mapper using it to clearify that one shouldn't use a bike at all and to solve known routing issues. At least I have the impression if I look up the tag.

Not sure if it helps as a reference

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1jno

"I would say the higher number is due to a broader use case" - no, cases where you cannot push bicycle are much rarer than cases where you cannot cycle but you can push it Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 18:23, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

"is it wrong to use bicycle=no for a scenario where even pushing the bike is not allowed?" - no, but "even pushing the bike is not allowed" is not expresssed Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 18:23, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

"no, cases where you cannot push bicycle are much rarer than cases where you cannot cycle but you can push it" Hi, that is maybe true but it is not used like that in practice I would say. It seems to me that it's used like motor_vehicle=no. That's why routing engines interpret the tag as a barrier because it is often used for that. I wouldn't recommend to use bicycle=no as a representation of a situation where you have to push the bike a few meters. It's already a very fuzzy tag. --Chribre (talk) 07:02, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

"I wouldn't recommend to use bicycle=no as a representation of a situation where you have to push the bike a few meters. It's already a very fuzzy tag" - well, it is not changing that it is widely used in this way Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

"It seems to me that it's used like motor_vehicle=no" - what you mean here? Note that in case of cars and even motorcycles carrying/pushing them to bypass some barrier is quite unusual Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

"Hi, that is maybe true but it is not used like that in practice I would say" - why you think so? Note that bicycle=dismount was introduced when bicycle=no was already in a wide use Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Other usage

On the German OSM it is relatively common to use the distinction bicycle=dismount/bicycle=no not to signify if pushing the bicycle is allowed but if pushing the bicycle is "recommended". For example imagine there is a narrow tunnel on a bicycle route where you're required to dismount (by signs). Tagging bicycle=no would tell routers that you're not allowed to cycle on this route and so they would probably simply not allow/recommend this route. "bicycle=dismount" is sometimes used on such short sections telling the router that you have to dismount there, but it's probably still okay to use this as a bicycle route (with some penalty perhaps).

For the purpose of tagging if carrying/pushing a bike is allowed, I think we would need special new keys/values as two values aren't enough. For example you could be forbidden to push a bike, but carrying it might be okay. -- Jonathan Haas (talk) 07:29, 16 August 2022 (UTC)