From OpenStreetMap Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

@ Adamant1

  1. You should have raised the deprecation topic HERE (Talk:Tag:industrial=sawmill) before attempting to deprecate this tag.
  2. When you refer to a supposed consensus, you should provide a link to it.
  3. The number of instances DOES matter when you want to deprecate a tag. Even when a handful of mappers share a consensus on a wiki talk page, that's insignificant compared to hundreds of mappers who use the tag on purpose. That's why deprecation of widely used tag should only be done with a proposal with voting.
  4. Your deprecation message commands users to use craft=sawmill instead, which in turn (as I've already told you) suggests to use industrial=sawmill instead. That loop is nothing but pathetic.
  5. Please don't misuse edit summaries for debate.

--Fkv (talk) 03:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

  1. @Dieterdreist: was the one that started the discussion on the industrial page. So if you don't like where he decided to discuss then take it up with him.
It's not up to him to make that decision, and it's not him who set industrial=sawmill to deprecated. That was you. --Fkv (talk) 06:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Good thing I said he wasn't the only person involved in the discussion then. True, I set industrial=sawmill to deprecated. People do things after they are discussed and there's a consensus to do them. I really don't see why your acting like that's controversial. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  1. I told you it's on the talk page of the article for the industrial key. There's no reason you can't put on your adult pants and find the discussion. I'm sure you know how to. Otherwise, it boggles the mind that we are even having this discussion.
You obviously can't even find the discussion yourself. We have to assume that it only exists in your imagination. --Fkv (talk) 06:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I told you the discussion is on the talk page of the industrial article. In no way is that "my imagination." In the meantime, so much for you having adult pants. Clearly your not on the mature level of doing things yourself. I swear people on want everything served to them on a silver platter. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  1. I don't know how many people have used the industrial=sawmill tag, but I doubt it's hundreds. In the meantime, there's 6/1 more uses of craft=sawmill and and I'm pretty sure the discussion about not doing parallel tagging with man_made=works was discussed outside of just Wiki talk page. Although, again you'd have to ask Dieterdreist. As you should be aware depreciating tags is just a recommendation, and the banner is explicitly clear that people free to continue to use or interpret tag as they see fit. So your accusation that I'm "commending" people not to use the tag by depreciating is a hyperbolic strawman at best. Especially since I was clear that I don't care what tag people use outside of following what was decided in the prior discussions and craft=sawmill having exponentially more uses.
An argue with someone who believes that 6815/1480 = 6 certainly leads nowhere... --Fkv (talk) 06:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
An argument with someone who nitpicks over minor percentage point differences definitely doesn't lead anywhere either. True, it's a lot closer to 5/1, but if that's your only argument then clearly this discussion isn't going to result in anything useful. Even if I was more exact. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  1. Nothing in my edit summary had anything to do with a debate or me wanting to have one. Really, I'd have much preferred it if you had took it up where I said to, with the people who originally initiated it. Mainly @Dieterdreist:, but other people were also involved. Instead of you turning this into a personal issue with me when there was zero reason to. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Changing the wiki without wanting a debate is even worse than to start the debate in the wrong place. --Fkv (talk) 06:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I said the point in my edit summary wasn't for debate. God only knows how you translated that into whatever nonsense your last sentence is about. I don't know about you, but I'd love to move this along. So why not just discuss it with the correct people on the proper talk page like I asked? You'd probably get a lot further that way. Clearly your whole "boho poor me. I'm to lazy to find a talk page. So I'm just going to accuse the person of making it all up instead" trite grievances aren't going to resolve this. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

no edit wars please

I see we had an edit war ongoing on this page. One participant had already been warned before that he should not do this. He has been blocked now for one year. The other participants please take note that edit wars are not a productive way to improve a community project, so please find ways to resolve differences instead of trying to force your point of view. --Lyx (talk) 09:09, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I am well aware that edit wars are not productive, but leaving an inconsistency in the wiki (craft=sawmill suggests to use industrial=sawmill instead, while industrial=sawmill suggests to use craft=sawmill) isn't productive either. I came here because I wanted to map a sawmill and tried to look up a tag for it. Given that the comment on craft=sawmill that a sawmill is not a craft sounds reasonable and has been there for more than 5 years, it's clearly Adamant's recent deprecation of industrial=sawmill which created the inconsistency. I am surprised how a single user can deprecate a tag with thousands of instances, without even suggesting the deprecation on the Talk page first. I already contacted the page author (Chrabros) but he hasn't responded yet. --Fkv (talk) 10:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
PS: When I wrote my reply, I had misread your message, believing that one participant was previously blocked for one year. Now I realize that you wrote that he is NOW blocked. While I believe that the deprecation of the tag is wrong and I dislike Adamant's discussion style, I think that he has does have a right to express his opinion. I oppose that he is blocked, let alone for a whole year. Silencing people (or threatening to silence them) is not how we resolve problems. That just creates an atmosphere of fear. --Fkv (talk) 10:45, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree that silencing people is not the way to resolve problems, and neither are edit wars where people try to force their point of view on unsuspecting readers. This user has been repeatedly warned not to start edit wars or take part in them, he has been blocked several times (by other admins) for different time periods for different reasons, and recently he has been warned by me not to continue with edit wars, and that he would be blocked for a year if he did anyway. He can still edit his own talk page and use the Wiki email function to state his point of view. --Lyx (talk) 11:43, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Sounds like you manoevered yourself into a position where you had to choose between a draconic punishment or losing your own credibility. I don't know what the previous edit wars were all about, but it's not always easy to avoid them. You see what happened here. Neither the wiki admins nor the page author cared when the tag was set to deprecated without proper discussion. You only interfered after the edit war had already started. Up to then, I felt completely left alone handling this issue. Strangely enough, it was my participation in the edit war that led to the other user getting blocked. Also, if he had created a new (i.e. fake) account for this edit war, he probably wouldn't have got blocked. That's why I'd suggest to focus on the contents of the edits rather than who did them. --Fkv (talk) 13:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)