Proposal:denomination=latter_day_saint
| Replace denomination=mormon with denomination=latter_day_saint | |
|---|---|
| Proposal status: | Canceled (inactive) |
| Proposed by: | Dknelson9876 |
| Tagging: | denomination=latter_day_saint |
| Applies to: | |
| Definition: | A place of worship operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints |
| Statistics: |
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| Draft started: | 2024-08-12 |
| RFC start: | 2024-08-13 |
| Vote start: | 2024-09-13 |
| Vote end: | 2024-09-27 |
Proposal
I propose that the current tag used to indicate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, denomination=mormon, be replaced with denomination=latter_day_saint. This proposal technically preserves the tag denomination=mormon as a generic tag for an unspecified church from the Restorationist movement, and also includse allowing other denomination=* values to be used for other churches that are part of the Restorationist movement, such as the Community of Christ, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the House of Aaron.
Rationale
This is inspired by a change in 2018 that members of said church no longer use the nickname 'mormon', and official recommendations from the church discouraging media and publications from using the nickname (report, style guide). Since that change, a movement away from denomination=mormon has been brought several times, but never previously reached a consensus. Due to this several local groups have on their own decided to move away from the tag, and created their own new value. There is now several different variants, collected in the table below. This proposal aims to find a consensus that can unify these splintered tags.
| Tag | Usage |
|---|---|
| denomination=latter_day_saints | |
| denomination=latter-day_saints | |
| denomination=mormon with operator=The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints | 244 |
| denomination=the_church_of_jesus_christ_of_latter-day_saints | |
| denomination=The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints |
The specific value latter_day_saint was reached as a compromise between having a tag that is not too long, but still recognizing the title preferred by the church and its members. Specific punctuation was discussed on the forum.
The recent version discussion was started on the community forums. Before commenting here, please look through the discussion there to see if your objection has already been addressed. link to forum
Tagging
The current meaning of denomination=mormon will be transferred to denomination=latter_day_saint, meaning a place affiliated with/operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the church headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. For completeness, it should be accompanied by denomination:wikidata=Q42504. In a very large majority of cases, it should also be accompanied by name=*, operator=*, operator:wikidata=*, and amenity=place_of_worship.
The new meaning of denomination=mormon will be an unspecified denomination tag for a church that is part of the Restorationist movement, where the mapper is encouraged to use a more specific tag. This is patterned in the same fashion of the current uses for denomination=catholic or denomination=protestant.
As part of the discussion on the forum, it was also determined that this would formalize that other churches from the Restorationist movement also deserve their own value for denomination=*, such as the Community of Christ, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the House of Aaron. Some of these churches are already tagged with their own separate value for denomination=* which is not listed on the wiki page.
Examples
The most common use case for this tag will be regular church buildings used for Sunday worship by church members. The full complement of tags for such a place of worship in an English speaking country would be
- name=The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
- amenity=place_of_worship
- religion=christian
- denomination=latter_day_saint
- denomination:wikidata=Q42504
- operator=The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
- operator:wikidata=Q42504
Many members of local congregations have nicknames for a building based on the street it is on or the name of the congregation that meets there. The tag loc_name=* is appropriate for these cases.
The second most common use case will be for temples operated by the church, which are named after the city/area they are located in, and otherwise should have the same tags.
Rendering
Some renderers already make special cases for the existing denomination=mormon, such as osm-carto using a person praying instead of the cross that typically goes with religion=christian, or Organic Maps using an Angel Moroni icon. Maintainers will need to be made aware of this proposal.
Features/Pages affected
External discussions
Comments
Please comment on the discussion page.
Voting
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| To get this output | you type | Description |
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{{vote|yes}} --~~~~
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Feel free to also explain why you support proposal. |
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{{vote|no}} reason --~~~~
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Replace reason with your reason(s) for voting no. |
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{{vote|abstain}} comments --~~~~
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I approve this proposal. Proposal looks reasonable. JesseFW (talk) 00:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)- I approve this proposal. This proposal fits well with the current usage of the denomination key. --Dylfitt (talk) 16:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Finally, a resolution to this longstanding question. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 17:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- As someone who has previously used denomination=mormon operator=*, denomination=latter_day_saints, and denomination=latter-day_saints, I'm more than happy to go along with the proposed spelling. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 02:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. The name of the tag's value isn't correct - "latter_day_saint". Why singular? What happened with the hyphen? Should be at least "latter-day_saints". Proposed tag has today only 17 uses. Even denomination=latter_day_saints (444) and denomination=latter-day_saints (381) are more commonly used. denomination=mormon is already widely used with 8,471 uses. If you're going to change tagging scheme, how would you tag Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints then? denomination=fundamentalist_church_of_jesus_christ_of_latter_day_saints? Or denomination=fundamentalist_latter_day_saint? If we are changing the way we tag, we should at least look ahead a little and think about other things (here: churches). Such small things as the exact name of the church can be included in other tags. If we want to change denomination=mormon to one that includes “latter day saints,” that should then apply to all churches of Mormonism. Both LDS and FLDS are mormons. FLDS has also Latter-Day Saints in their name. One can use denomination=mormon + operator=The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintsfor it. maro21 18:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)- Replied at Proposal talk:Denomination=latter day saint#LDS vs FLDS. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 02:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I don't understand why we need to swap a widely understood term for a less recognized, more complicated tag if not for whitewashing for a cult. --Spaghetti Monster (talk) 11:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. denomination=latter_day_saint is the sort of compromise that leaves no one happy. It does not disambiguate the organization any more than [{tag|denomination|mormon}} and it uses a nonstandard spelling. operator=* already allows you to specify a particular entity. If you want denomination=* to refer to a single church, then value length is of no concern. If we deem "mormon" problematic enough to remove from the database then we should use the most commonly recognized "latter-day saints". --Allison P. (talk) 21:54, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Looks fine and respects a group's chosen name. "Latter Day Saint" is a common adjectival form, see wikipedia. (I tried and failed to use the term "denomination demonym".) --Trafficfurnitur (talk) 22:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I agree with the proposal for the reasons given. I would also add that as someone who's traveled extensively around the United States, I've never seen a sign for a "mormon church". denomination=latter_day_saint honors the "on the ground rule"; someone with no cultural context could look at an LDS church sign and easily determine the correct denomination tag. --Quincylvania (talk) 15:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Like others have said, there's no need to change this established tag with a clear meaning. --Riiga (talk) 15:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Duja (talk) 07:57, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Watmildon
- I oppose this proposal. I don't understand why we need to swap a widely understood term for a less recognized, more complicated tag if not for whitewashing for a cult. --MCBuhl (talk) 08:38, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. The vote follows long discussions in the community forum. Good idea to standardise the tagging. In the discussion multiple members of that religious community expressed support for the tag. As noted by another mapper, it also honours the "on the ground" rule. Some of the comments here are disheartening to read. They don't represent our community. Osmuser63783 (talk) 15:39, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. As already stated: why singular? Doesn't even match the style guide this proposal links to. --Adavidson (talk) 01:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Kjon (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --CharliePlett 13:07, 22 September 2024 I know what a Mormon is, I don't know what a latter day saint is. Why do we need to change the tag just because a church wants to hide what they used to be?
- I approve this proposal. Johnwhelan
- I oppose this proposal. Why replace a well-known, simple name, with some long obscure text that bears no meaning to a lot of people ? Plus "latter_day_saints" is NOT the real name. This would be somehow obfuscating. --Pepilepioux (talk) 17:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I don't understand why we need to swap a widely understood term for a less recognized, more complicated tag if not for whitewashing for a cult.Wwwouaiebe (talk)
- I oppose this proposal. I find the wording "latter_day_saints" confusing. I don't know the expression "latter_day_saints", whereas I know the expression "mormon" (which seems clear to me) — Koreller (talk) 20:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I agree with those who oppose as this is a name I may have heard once somewhere and didn't even connect that to mormons. Everybody knows mormons. Let's keep it usable. --Fnordson (talk) 20:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Fizzie41 (talk) 00:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --Coehill (talk) 03:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I am opposed to the proposal to replace a well-understood tag with a new one --Brummelwuff (talk) 09:14, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. This church wants me dead, and I hope for a day they are destroyed. However, they do use this term LDS and it's not a confusing name, so I vote to match the OSM tag with what it says on the ground. Amᵃᵖanda (talk) 11:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. Voting is now closed, but I have no issue with this proposal. As a gay man with personal connections to several LGBT ex-Mormons, I have plenty of issues with the LDS church itself, and I don't expect that an OSM tagging proposal will change that. But the church exists on the ground. clay_c (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2024 (UTC)- I approve this proposal. Voting is closed but I want to register my support for this or a plural tag, denomination=latter-day_saints -- the "on the ground" rule suggests that if an organization changes its name or advocates for correct terminology, that we respect it: if a tourist can't find the word "Mormon" on any signage or when asking people inside what the place is for, then it's not a good term, regardless of history. Use of plural in the tag seems to follow the names the church uses, as in "Brethren of Christ Church" would not be marked as denomination=brother_in_christ but remain consistent with how the name is written. Since the organization is the "Church of Latter-Day Saints", plural, we should follow suit. Existing usage seems split on hyphens or underscores for hyphenated names, but closer to reality is probably better. Our personal feelings about an organization or history shouldn't color our choices about accuracy in mapping; if Erdoğan says "call us Türkiye not Turkey" we respect that even if we don't like him. --Zyphlar (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I started a project using looking at churches in Arizona and I was delighted to see the denomination tag. It's not hard for me to pick a tag for my purposes and merge them when I import the data to PostgreSQL. But that doesn't help the average user who won't know there's no difference between the various tags. (Most of the time!) So I came to offer to help standardize on some variation of Latter-Day Saints because that's what will be most useful to the people most interested this data. --Jericson (talk) 16:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Post-Vote
Thank you to all who shared their vote. I'm canceling the vote a couple days early, since it is on track to fail. However, I don't want to walk away from this, since I'm still not happy with the current state of things. I ask that you don't walk away either, and join the conversation on the talk page or the original RFC thread on the forum so that your concerns can be resolved. --Dknelson9876 (talk) 15:11, 24 Septembre 2024 (UTC)