Proposed features/Rescue Stations

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Rescue Services
Status: Rejected (inactive)
Proposed by:
Tagging: emergency=*
Applies to: nodearea
Definition: Bases of emergency rescue groups
Rendered as: Black SOS on pink background
Drafted on: 2020-12-05
RFC start: 2020-12-06
Vote start: 2020-12-20
Vote end: 2021-01-03

Proposal

Rename the existing "Other Stations" heading under the Emergency key emergency#Other_Stations=*, to "Rescue Services" & list various types of Emergency Rescue unit


Tagging to be changed:


The following tagging is amended:

  • emergency=disaster_response to be defined for units from each countries Emergency Rescue / Civil Defence service/s. These will be the "first responders" to any natural disaster, such as storms, flooding etc


The following tagging is added:

  • emergency=marine_rescue is introduced for Marine Rescue units, dedicated to the rescue of vessels &/or sailors in distress, usually in Open or Coastal waters, but also possibly in inland waters. They may also be involved in rescue operations on coastal cliffs, mud flats etc.

This tag would replace the existing emergency=coast_guard, amenity=coast_guard, emergency=lifeboat_station & amenity=lifeboat_station tags. Also see separate proposal re Coast Guard to redefine stations as "military" or "rescue"

  • emergency=mine_rescue is introduced for Rescue units dedicated to rescue of miners after mine accidents
  • This is not intended to be a final list - any other specific type of Rescue unit could also be added.

The following tagging is deprecated, to be replaced with:

Background

Currently, OSM doesn't have any clear definitions of the various types of, or any straight-forward way of tagging the existence & location of, Emergency Rescue groups. This proposal rectifies both of those problems.

The idea was looked at in 2008 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Emergency_service, but apparently never proceeded with.

Tagging Guidelines

The various emergency=xxx tags are intended to tag the base areas or buildings of various Emergency Rescue groups as clearly observed. This tag is only intended to be used for permanent features, not temporary locations eg in the field.

In addition to the emergency=xxx tag, all normal details would also be added, such as name, operator, wikidata tags where applicable for both the individual unit & also the operator, phone number, e-mail address etc

Examples

NSW SES Murrumbidgee Region HQ.jpg
Australian State Emergency Service base
(emergency=disaster_response)

Gebirgstrage01.jpg
Mountain-rescue equipment & vehicles
(emergency=mountain_rescue)

William Joy - The Rescue of the Survivors of the Brig Henry.jpg
Rescue of sailors from a sinking vessel
(emergency=marine_rescue)

ILN – Senghenydd Colliery Disaster 4.jpeg
Rescue workers coming out of a collapsed mine
(emergency=mine_rescue)

Applies to

node area

Suggested Rendering

  • The area of the Rescue base could render with the same pink colour as currently used for Police & Fire Stations, together with an "SOS" icon.
  • For nodes by themselves, the "SOS" icon would apply.

Features/Pages affected

Pages Action
emergency=other_stations Rename this heading to "Rescue_Services"
emergency=ses_station

emergency_service=technical
amenity=rescue_station
amenity=lifeboat_station
emergency=lifeboat_station

To be deprecated
emergency=disaster_response
To be amended
emergency=marine_rescue

emergency=mine_rescue

Create these pages
Proposed deprecated tags
emergency=ses_station emergency_service=technical amenity=rescue_station amenity=lifeboat_station emergency=lifeboat_station


Proposed amended tags
emergency=disaster_response


External discussions

Comments

Please comment on the discussion page.

Voting

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{{vote|yes}} --~~~~ Feel free to also explain why you support proposal.
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For full template documentation see Template:Vote. See also how vote outcome is processed.

Proposal Rejected 10 yes, 5 no 3 abstain


  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --EneaSuper (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Fizzie41 (talk) 03:29, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. How objects tagged now with amenity=lifeboat_station should be tagged after this proposal passes? It deprecates some tags without info about proposed replacements. Also "The area of the Rescue base should render with the same pink colour as currently used for Police & Fire Stations, together with an "SOS" icon." is problematic as proposal process has no power to directly decide on rendering in any map style. And in many renderers different (or none) styling is used for rendering this object. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:51, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
The two existing different lifeboat tags would then become emergency=marine_rescue. Rendering has been changed to "Suggested" (but just about every proposal I've ever seen has had a Rendering scheme mentioned) --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Vakonof (talk) 12:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. This seems to replace more descriptive tags with generic ones to no appreciable benefit and with no means to preserve the lost information --InsertUser (talk) 00:51, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry you think that as with =marine_rescue in particular, I am attempting to consolidate 4 existing effectively duplicate tags into one. What information are you concerned will be lost? --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing those places out, but, from what I can make out via Google Translate of wiki & home pages, they would all appear to be primarily lifeguard services ie looking after the safety of swimmers, rather than vessels & sailors? Is anybody able to please confirm this for me? If they are, then they should all probably be mapped under one of the existing lifeguard tags? As for Tower Bridge Lifeboat Station, the Marine Rescue definition could be, & now has been, amended to "dedicated to the rescue of vessels &/or sailors at sea, or on inland waterways" --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
At least https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=54.0312&mlon=21.7749#map=12/54.0312/21.7749 (at relatively small lake) has speedboats and other equipment capable of rescuing people sailing in deeper waters, about 1.5 km from shore (not farther, as middle of lake is 1-2 km from nearest land). In the worst case they would be rescuing (coordinating rescue) from big tourism ships circling lake and carrying about 100-200 people or people from sailing boats who ignored warning of an incoming storm.
I am not familiar with Baikal or other actually big lakes but I expect that they may have similar or more serious rescue services, comparable with marine ones.Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
See http://www.mopr.com.pl/1-nasza-stacja/stacje-i-ratownicy-gizycko-galeria-stacji.html for some photos Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Conversation moved to discussion page --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Aharvey (talk) 03:09, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. -- I believe this proposal still needs more work. The proposed tags are still not clearly defined, the only have a short description which is mainly that they are "rescue units", e.g. "Marine Rescue units, dedicated to the rescue of vessels &/or sailors at sea, or on inland waters" - but how is a rescue unit defined?
I've added some details that have been discussed but I can't really rescue units any further as such --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

For emergency=disaster_response we are only told it is "to be defined for units from each countries Emergency Rescue / Civil Defence service/s" but this is not very clear.

That's not actually my tag, but rather an existing, undefined, un-discussed one that should be defined & included here. Apart from being each country's first responders to natural disasters, I would be hesitant about defining it too exactly as each country may / will have slightly different characteristics. --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The proposal also says "This is not intended to be a final list - any other specific type of Rescue unit could also be added" - but we are voting now, so there needs to be a clear list of tags.

Making provision for the future if anybody thinks of something else that should be included, or for something that may not even currently exist. Space rescue, perhaps? :-) --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Then, emergency=ses_station is to be replaced with emergency=disaster_response but an SES station in Australia also does search and rescue and other things: "the service deals with floods, storms and tsunamis, but can also assist in other emergencies, such as vertical and road crash rescues, missing persons searches, and medical evacuations. In other scenarios the SES may provide a support role to other agencies, particularly police and fire." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Emergency_Service -

As above, I'd be hesitant about defining things too finely, as other countries may not do the same things? --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Please work some more on better defining the new tags and I hope a re-worked proposal will be approved later. --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:33, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Also emergency=mountain_rescue is listed in the examples, is it part of the proposal or not? --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:34, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Again, an existing tag that is currently already listed on the Emergency page. Earlier, I did ask if that would also cover snow / ski rescue, or if they would need to be listed separately, but didn't get any response. --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. I think this needs more work as others have criticized above. E.g., this proposal does not mention the existing Tag:emergency=water_rescue_station at all although it seems to me that there is an overlap with the proposed Tag:emergency=marine_rescue. This is especially true for inland stations IMHO. Additionally, I wonder how many dedicated mine rescue units exist that are not part of a digging corporation's health or technical teams there. :) This seems a rather special case in comparison to the other values. Also, there can be overlaps (SES was mentioned) that cannot be handled with this proposal. Maybe it would be better to have a generic value like "rescue_station" and add something like the proposed emergency values as keys with yes/no, e.g., Tag:emergency=rescue_station + Tag:distaster=yes + Tag:mountain=yes? I *do* think that this proposal is a step in the right direction though, thanks for your work. --Stefanct (talk) 23:36, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
water_rescue_stations have actually been mentioned a couple of times, in that they would appear to be primarily a lifeguard unit, mainly responsible for preventing swimmers from drowning, while a Marine Rescue unit is there to assist vessels & sailors in distress.

Yes, mine_rescue will probably only ever be found in the grounds of a mine, but we still need something to tag it with :-) Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think "various types of emergency"=yes/no would work? --Fizzie41 (talk) 02:24, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't see water_rescue_stations mentioned in the proposal or the discussion page. Do you mean it was discussed on the mailing list? In any case the relation should be explained in the proposal itself. The difference you state above is exactly what I think is problematic: On lakes these two are very often combined - they assist vessels as well as swimmers. In this concrete example it is a combination of marine_rescue, lifeguard and even mountain_rescue. Your scheme does not allow for that. And regarding the mining thing: what I meant is that I don't believe there is something to map. If a mining corporation has dedicated people for that (like a plant fire brigade) then they won't have a "station" but a small office and there is very little to no reason to tag it IMHO. I am not convinced that this is actually (still) a thing anyway (due to improvements of safety measures on the one hand and financial pressure on the other). At least I cannot find anything like that, that is still manned permanently. All I can find are historic examples and training centers but maybe they still exist. Can you give a real-world example of such a manned station that is currently still in operation? --Stefanct (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Responses on discussion page rather than in Voting --Fizzie41 (talk) 03:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. I have just read the comments. I do think that there is still some work to be done. More on the discussion page --Gendy54 (talk) 11:25, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Zaffo80 (talk) 20:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Thetornado76 (talk) 22:52, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Many issues have been pointed out already. Additionally I don't like the definition of emergency=disaster_response calling them "first responders". While I can't speak for other countries, at least in Germany, first responders will pretty much always be fire departments, ambulance providers and police. Disaster response, in this case THW, will then come later if needed with bigger or more specialised equipment.--TOGA (talk) 23:14, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Melbournefan (talk) 10:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --chnuessli (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. After reading the comments, i think that this proposal need a little bit more "fine tuning". --TheBlackMan (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)