Talk:Facebook AI-Assisted Road Tracing

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Update or migrate to new page?

This wiki is in need of a refresh. At the time of making it, we wrote it as an import wiki as that was the closest analogue to what we were doing. However, it really is and has naturally become an organized editing wiki.

So I would like to update it to reflect that with a substantial rewrite, but I just want to make sure everyone is ok with that. Alternatively, we could archive this and create a new page.

FAQ's

FAQ's section has moved from this Talk page, onto the page itself: AI-Assisted Road Tracing#FAQ's

I've just moved the FAQ's which were right here on this Talk page, onto the content page itself. This fits with the wiki convention of using "Talk" pages only for discussion of the content. The FAQ's while they might have had a discussion type feel to them (or heading off unnecessary discussion by trying to answer any questions), are definately "content" belonging on the main namespace. That slim things down a bit on this page, and it means this page is only full of discussion, which feels more normal.

I also downgraded from headings to just bold bits for the questions. Not so good for linkability, but that avoides the FAQs bloating the table of contents, and generally makes them more compact.

-- Harry Wood (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Page moved “AI-Based Country Scale Road Import” to “AI- Assisted Road Tracing”

Changed from “AI-Based Country Scale Road Import” to “AI- Assisted Road Tracing”

Since posting this wiki we have received quite a bit of feedback from the forums, e-mail and conversations with long time OSM contributors. Based on this feedback we have decided to go back and make some changes to help clarify a few things.

  • While using AI has become common practice in the tech world, it is fairly new to OSM and there aren't any guides to adhere to so we decided to call it an import. However we wanted to clarify that we have created a process that is basically like remote tracing using satellite imagery, where most of our roads are generated using deep learning.
  • It is important to note we are creating the data ourselves, processing it and then following the same process you normally would when using a Tasking Manager to edit with iD or JOSM.
  • Multiple people go through each node and way making sure to tag each road appropriately, connect them to current OSM edits, fix alignment when necessary, add sensible changeset comments/notes and resolve conflicts before finally saving where it is merged with the current OSM data.
  • We are working with just one country at a time and our edits will happen slowly by grouping areas into small regions so we complete one before moving to the next. We plan to spend the next few months in Thailand.
  • Here is an example of how we plan to divide the tasks for the country. The colors indicate the current density of roads going from blue to red for high density areas. Thailand Road Density by Task
  • As promised we will also be sharing sample data to the import list.

-- User:DrishT 23:51, 7 March 2017

Propose move "AI- Assisted Road Tracing" -> "Facebook AI-Assisted Road Tracing"

I want to prose a further renaming of this page "AI- Assisted Road Tracing" -> "Facebook AI-Assisted Road Tracing" since the scope of this page is clearly limited to this project. In principle we might have another page describing "AI-Assisted Road Tracing" more generally (and listing projects like this one)

I know it's quite late in the day to suggest this. It's been bothering me for some time, so I should have done this sooner. But, as usual, the page move will leave behind redirects so shouldn't cause a major link breaking problem.

-- Harry Wood (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Discussed briefly with DrishT here: [1]
That move is DONE
-- Harry Wood (talk) 23:33, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Who is "We"

Please state who "we" is supposed to be in this page in an intro, some more context would be good too. SimonPoole (talk) 21:54, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

We really value feedback, so thank you for highlighting some points we needed to clarify. Please take a look at our edits to our original post. To clarify further, we are not directly uploading machine generated roads; it's AI-assisted human mapping and we have conducted extensive training with our mappers to make sure each edit is validated by multiple different people to ensure quality.
We've been communicating via email over the past 4 months with specific local users in Thailand to gather feedback and local knowledge and to share our initial results. There are a number of people behind this email osm@fb.com, and we invite all feedback and questions.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by DrishT (talkcontribs) 17:21, 17 February 2017 initially posted under a separate heading responding to two different points, hence duplicated

Now, a month later it is still not disclosed what account names are used for the import. Does Facebook want to play hide and seek? --Stephankn (talk) 23:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

usernames had been hidden inside links. Expanded them so search will return them. --Stephankn (talk) 06:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Discussion with the community

It's worth mentioning that there is an active OSM forum for Thailand at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=46 , and at the very least I'd expect any import of "detected" roads in that area to be discussed with them before it takes place. Personally I'm somewhat sceptical that "we have been able to train models accurate enough to detect roads from satellite imagery", since the evidence so far suggests that you absolutely have not been able to do that (see https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=55685 et al). --SomeoneElse (talk) 00:01, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

We really value feedback, so thank you for highlighting some points we needed to clarify. Please take a look at our edits to our original post. To clarify further, we are not directly uploading machine generated roads; it's AI-assisted human mapping and we have conducted extensive training with our mappers to make sure each edit is validated by multiple different people to ensure quality.
We've been communicating via email over the past 4 months with specific local users in Thailand to gather feedback and local knowledge and to share our initial results. There are a number of people behind this email osm@fb.com, and we invite all feedback and questions.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by DrishT (talkcontribs) 17:21, 17 February 2017 initially posted under a separate heading responding to two different points, hence duplicated
Yes, but the last one was supposed to be AI-assisted mapping. It's not clear to me that you've established where the last one went wrong and what measures there are to ensure it won't happen again. p.s., it helps if you sign your posts with four ~ so people can tell who's written what. Pnorman (talk) 11:13, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Since our last upload we have improved our process based on community feedback. We're now working with a larger team of highly-trained mappers and have added steps to the validation process. We're confident this round will be much smoother! Again, we welcome your suggestions at osm@fb.com. We have a dedicated team behind the email who will respond within 24 hours. --DrishT (talk) 17:38, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
The consultation with the community should probably not happen with the local community first and imports@ second, but both at the same time, or perhaps iron out the basic issues on imports@ before proposing something to the local community that may not happen. Pnorman (talk) 11:27, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


Changeset tags

The proposed changeset tags are comment=#nsroadimport #country, which do not follow the practice of using Good Changeset Comments Pnorman (talk) 11:29, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Paul. We provided these comments so community members could easily see our edits. Each mapper will provide more detailed comments as they edit following this guide: Good Changeset Comments--DrishT (talk) 17:36, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Lack of discussion

This page was created on the 14 February and claimed that

Following the imports guidelines, these imports will be discussed first in the country specific mailing list, and to get more feedback it will also be shared with the import list.

Yet, 2 days later and without any discussion on the imports list OR the Thailand user forum, someone proceeded to import data in Thailand: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/VLD004/history I'm very sorry to see that this continues the "bad faith" track record from last time with its lack of transparency (how hard can it be to put a note in the user profile explaining who they are and who they are working for) and a blatant disregard for the community (you promise to discuss things ahead and then break your own promise two days later). Is what we're seeing here just incompetence, or a deliberate attempt at misleading the community? You must have known, after things failed so badly last time, that more diligence is required in dealing with OSM. --Frederik Ramm (talk) 12:17, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Frederick, Prior to importing data, we shared proposed edits with Thailand OSM community members via email for feedback. Given your expertise and experience in OSM, we'd like to speak to you, and your OSM Data Working Group partners, in more detail about our approach and process. We're new to this community and want your direct feedback and suggestions. Can you please share some days and times over the next couple of weeks that work for your group? We'll set up a meeting via VC if we're unable to all be in the same place. Thanks again, Drish --DrishT (talk) 01:27, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
You can and should email the imports mailing list? That's a good place to speak to relevant people. If you're new to OSM, perhaps you shouldn't start with an import. Maybe start with regular OSM contribution, and when you have learned the ropes, you can do an import, which is a more advanced action Rorym (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
(to Xgao3006) - thank you for updating the wiki page, but you do need to follow the import guidelines, which does include (as Rory says) that you should email the imports mailing list. --SomeoneElse (talk) 23:28, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi Andy, thank you for the feedback. Yes, we are aware about posting to the import list and will do so before making any edits. -- User:Xgao3006 15:40, 28 February 2017 [2]

import=yes and source=digitalglobe

On Oct. 17 you "clarified" that you would not tag changesets but individual elements with source=digitalglobe and import=yes . This differs from the previous statements where you said you would tag changesets this way.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=AI-Assisted_Road_Tracing&type=revision&diff=1515861&oldid=1514874

I think you should tag changesets with "import=yes". I would advise against using import=yes on elements, because it is unclear how future mapping should deal with the tag (Should I remove it when I adjust your element from local knowledge or better imagery? Should I leave it alone?). --Gormo (talk) 13:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

(Crosspost reference) This was also mentioned by Nakaner on the imports mailing list: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-October/005188.html . --Gormo (talk) 13:09, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe it would be desirable to have the information, that these are not human traced things but coming from an AI, somewhere in the changeset tags. The source is not just "digitalglobe", digitalglobe only provided the imagery. Reason is, that usually an aerial imagery reference in the source tag implies: "traced by the user". --Dieterdreist (talk) 15:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

link fbcdn.net not working

all "example" hosted on fbcdn.net return an error "URL signature expired". can you fix it ? Marc marc (talk) 13:37, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

"partner": does that mean paid/commerical relationship?

In Indonesia, we have partnered with HOT's Jakarta office to coordinate with the local community and improve the road network of Indonesia.

Can you clarify what "partner" means? Specifcally is anyone being paid? Facebook, like all large corporations, has a PR department. So "partner" here could mean "We have a contract with HOT Indonesia and pay them money, and these people are employees of HOT Indonesia who get paid and do mapping/validation" or "We are coordinating with HOT Indonesia without money, but these people are employees of HOT Indonesia." Or does "partner"/"work with" mean everyone is volunteers? It would be nice to get clarity.

Hi Rory, this is Russell Deffner, HOT’s project manager for this partnership. The HOT Indonesia staff listed on the wiki-page are paid mappers working in our Jakarta office. However, there is more staff working to support this project both in Indonesia as well as globally (me as an example). Not all staff are paid, some of our key volunteers as well as interns may also have a part in making this project a success; as well as making the OpenStreetMap community in Indonesia more robust. --Russell Deffner (talk) 14:39, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


Updates

Kerala Mapping - August 2018

After requests from the local OSM community in India, we released road data for Kerala and were asked to help edit and get them into OSM using our processes and tools. The team at Facebook is coordinating with Humanitarian OpenStreetMap and the local OSM community in India to help add roads for Kerala to help with Disaster Response. You can see more information on the links below.

Talk List Coordination wiki Github ticket

-- User:DrishT - 18:41, 26 August 2018