Talk:Addresses in the United Kingdom
Adding extra subdivisions
Addresses are "weird" -- many real-life examples require additional subdivisions to fully capture their particulars
Area subdivisions
There may be a case for a similar (possibly UK specific tag); e.g. addr:locality (as in BS7666) analogous to place:locality.
- There is no need to introduce a new UK specific tag here as this is what addr:suburb can (and should) be used for. Maybe we are incorrectly applying our perceptions of what a "suburb" is, but for the purpose of the tag, if there is a sub area of a larger urban area (from Hamlet to City) then the addr:suburb tag is the right one to use.--RobJN (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
I don't agree with the assertion addr:village etc. have been incorrectly used. The vast majority of such objects (~93%) also have addr:city tagged (according to taginfo), so I think it is reasonable to assume that they are being used in the sense of the 'forgiving method' for the most part, as a dependent locality of the post town (that's how I've used them at least).
Street subdivisions
There is also additional discussion about addr:street / addr:parentstreet, or the use of addr:terrace, etc.
- The current suggestion to use parentstreet instead of street where there is a substreet, terrace, etc. so unaware software doesn't put the housenumber with street when it should go with the sub-thing ignores Sarah Hoffman's point about the assumption made in the absence of street and place tags (find the closest street and use that). [edit] i.e. Unaware software should/will still put a street with housenumber when using substreet with parentstreet.[/edit]
the assumption was that in 99% of the cases you can add a addr:housenumber and be done with it. To compute the address find the closest street, village centre, county etc geographically. The result of this decision was that you can't just map an address that doesn't contain a street by leaving out the addr:street tag. Because the absence of the tag is defined as: use the closest street instead. That's where the addr:place tag came in. It was invented to clearly signal the data consumer: this address does not contain a street. Do not include the closest street in the address. Start the address with this place after the housenumber instead. [1]
TrekClimbing (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Use of Relations
For completeness, it would be worth saying explicitly that the proposed application will not make use of the associatedStreet relation, and that it will leave any existing associatedStreet relations as it finds them. (Or, perhaps it should make use of them - but there is no mention of these relations in the proposed text. )
--spiregrain 17:30, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Numbering ranges
It would be useful to offer guidance on numbering ranges - both in addr:housenumber and addr:flats . It's quite common in the UK to have values like "1-11" applied to addr:housenumber or addr:flats. At present, this is ambiguous between:
- A single unit, called "1-11" (rare in the UK, but quite normal in some countries)
- An address point which includes 1, 2, 3, etc. up to 11.
- An address point which includes only the odd numbers. It is currently not valid to use the addr:interpolation tag on a building way or an address node/entrace - according to the wiki or according to the various validation tools and editors.
The guidance could suggest adding a valid interpolation way inside the building outline; or recommend novel tags. And the app could support this.
--spiregrain 17:30, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
External links
- https://www.hertsmere.gov.uk/Documents/02-Business/Street-Naming--Numbering/BS7666-Standards-Guide.pdf
- http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2020/06/housing-terraces-in-wales-minor.html
JOSM warnings
- Worth noting that JOSM issues warnings when addr:place is used in conjunction with addr:street
a parade of shops
Please could we include an example of the fairly common UK feature, the 'parade of shops'?
I give you 1-17 King's Parade, Ditchling Road, Brighton, BN1 6JT. Shops include a cafe/bakery, my favourite off-licence https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5647781971, and a really good butchers. These would have been 267-275 Ditchling Road. They have odd numbers only despite there being no equivalent even numbered addresses opposite. There is no 'King's Parade' road sign, but I have seen them on similar parades. Jnicho02 (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- If you can suggest the addressing (addr:parentstreet?), I will go and photograph the parade to include as an example.
- Here's another, using a parentstreet and (perhaps controversial) a named footway. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1011678385 Spiregrain (talk) 16:06, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
An Industrial Centre
Could we have a worked example of a business park, retail park, or industrial park. Something like "Unit 2, St Swithins Business Park, Martlesham Road, Wimbledon, London, SW9 9AF" please? I'm never quite sure what is advisory - Jnicho02 (talk) 15:07, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it'd be represented like this (I don't think this is a real example?) Perhaps we could add a "why" column for the example(s)?
key value addressing level why addr:housename Unit 2 Building This is a specific building within the business park, not something *within* a building that's also identified in the address ("addr:unit" isn't right). It's not a simple number with optional suffix, so not addr:housenumber. addr:substreet St Swithins Business Park Thoroughfare The business park is not a street, so this detail does not go in "addr:street". addr:street Martlesham Road Thoroughfare There is a street part to this address. There doesn't have to be. addr:suburb Wimbledon Locality In this case, an the subarea really is an actual suburb. It doesn't have to be. addr:city London Locality The Post(al) Town really is an actual city here. They don't have to be. addr:postcode SW9 9AF Postcode Just the postcode, nothing fancy.
- Thinking about the addressing level can be helpful: I'm using the fairly neutral Royal Mail terms because I find they're useful.
- The problem with that approach is it uses addr:substreet for the fundamental grouping element - the thing that groups house names and numbers. In OSM this is usually represented by addr:street and sometimes by addr:place. By also using addr:street almost all data consumers will think this address is Unit 2, Martlesham Road... At least in this case Unit 2 would be a clue to a human, but not a good one if there's another industrial estate. Also, an address search for St Swithins Business Park will not return a result.
- Better use
key value why addr:housename Unit 2 This is a specific building within the business park, not something *within* a building that's also identified in the address ("addr:unit" isn't right). It's not a simple number with optional suffix, so not addr:housenumber. addr:street OR addr:place St Swithins Business Park The business park is what groups the buildings. addr:parentstreet Martlesham Road There is a street part to this address but it isn't what the buildings are grouped by. It clarifies where the street or place is, so this detail does not go in "addr:street". addr:suburb Wimbledon In this case, an the subarea really is an actual suburb. addr:city London The Post(al) Town really is an actual city here. They don't have to be. addr:postcode SW9 9AF Just the postcode, nothing fancy.
- TrekClimbing (talk) 06:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I buy the argument about Martlesham Road just clarifying where the business park is. But addr:place is deemed inappropriate because its addressing level is muddled and vague (in GB terms, it could represent either a Thoroughfare-level element or (erroneously) a Locality-level element). Personally, I would be _much_ happier if people just used addr:place the way we want it to be - and the way it's actually defined! - but they don't.
- A business park does not usually have a nearby "way with highway=* or a square with place=square" that has the same name. See the main tab. addr:street isn't right for the example business park's name unless that is *exactly* what it says on the street signs too (I think it's fictitious, so we can't go and check :((( )
- Therefore you must use addr:substreet (not addr:place), and either addr:street or (more likely, I now feel) addr:parentstreet.
- I'm not happy that the community selected "addr:substreet" for things that are definitely-not-streets-or-squares either: see the JOSM presets discussion below. We have to work with what was decided, however.
- I didn't see any consensus emerge around addr:substreet. If anything close to consensus emerged it was for using addr:street in all cases. However RobJN was 'in charge' and in favour of addr:substreet and developed the wiki page.
- I don't think the community's failure to tidy up addr:place, which needs to happen either way, is a reason to not use it correctly. There's no real ambiguity because most data consumers are global and probably none treat it as a suburb/town.
- TrekClimbing (talk) 05:42, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining the history. I've updated the JOSM presets linked below to support the "addr:place" subschema for dependent thoroughfares, and actually suggest it by default for editing too. It also support the RobJN schema that uses "addr:substreet" instead of "addr:place" for dependent thoroughfares. I'm definitely coming round to the view that we should be doing the most globally approved thing that supports 2-level thoroughfares and 3-level localities.
JOSM presets for this schema
I've made some JOSM presets that express this schema. Can I gather some feedback and discussion about whether it's ready to be added to this page yet? It's at https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets/UnitedKingdomAddresses, and available in JOSM's Presets → Preset preferences... menu. I'm the chap who wrote the EnglandWalesRightsOfWay presets ages ago.
It's organised as two preset dialogs: one for creating compliant addresses, and one for removing and migrating some of the tags in the "Tags to avoid" section to more compliant tags. I would greatly appreciate some feedback from the people who created this schema on whether the language is correct, as well as whether the thing is technically correct and likely to generate good addressing practice.
I've tried to strike a balance between brevity and fully explaining the intricacies of UK addresses. Some choices:
- Using PAF-lingo headers "Premises", "Thoroughfare", "Locality", "Postcode". There are some terse explanations of how to express each section.
- I've chosen to reject some confusing OSM terminology in favour of more PAFly terms in the tags' display names, where it's clearer. The OSM tags are still visible in the dialogs as the initial greyed text, and in the case of "suburb" in particular, I'm rather hoping the user won't look too hard.
- I'm hoping that saying "Single Unit" and "Multiple Units" create a sense of mutual exclusion in the reader's mind for addr:unit and addr:flats. I think the same term should be used for both, and "Unit" is more neutral (the OSM term is better than PAF's "Sub Building Name").
- I've had to invent the mouthful "Non-Street grouping" for addr:substreet because "sub-street" makes me think it's a street (which it never is)
- Same for "Optional: Subarea (of Post Town)", "Rare: Intermediate (if [hamlet/village/town])" (x3), and "Required: Post Town (or city)". I'm hoping that the phrasing and clustering gives the right vibe for new users. The Locality section header explains "Subareas include hamlets/villages/towns/suburbs. One intermediate max". Hope that's a reasonable balance.
- Q: should Post Town be a dropdown, derived from wikipedia:en:List of post towns in the United Kingdom? JOSM accepts combo boxes with free-form entries too, so that won't get in the way if someone's using a weird addr:city: it's just a thing that will need to be maintained.
Other discussion: there's a Community Forum post about it, and it's announced on my OSMtown fedi too. All feedback welcome.
--achadwick (talk) 08:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Update 1.5_2024-06-22: added support for the schema that uses the global addr:place, and made it the soft-enforced default when editing an existing object with an address, unless it uses addr:substreet. The substreet schema has its own dialog, and is treated as equally valid - I just had to pick one to present by default.