Talk:Tag:piste:type=ski jump

Tagging scheme imprecise?

Hi. I've tried to wrap my head around descriptions provided in various ski jumping related tags. I've even created a graphical sketch for the tagging scheme as a help, in order to consolidate the knowledge, and also so I do not forget anything I've learned. I find it helpful for mapping. But I find some of the descriptions vague, even a bit contradictory in my opinion. More precisely I mean:

• leisure=pitch -- should it be used on the landing area only, or also on the outrun area? And what about the inrun area?
• piste:type=ski_jump as an area (additionally to a line) -- is putting this tag on an area "desired", or rather "allowed" tagging? Additionally, same questions here as for leisure=pitch apply. Moreover, if this should cover inrun too, should landing area and inrun area be tagged as separate or same OSM element? Also, isn't tagging both line and area with same piste:type=ski_jump "primary" tag violating One feature, one OSM element? (that page provides an example of tagging for a quite similiar situation of river way and area)
• piste:takeoff=yes -- this was at some point changed from takeoff=* for reasons I couldn't trace back, why?

Regards --Dzamper (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Nice illustration. I think it would be useful to include on the wiki, however I would exclude all building=* and leisure=* examples to make the illustration even more focused.

Regarding your specific questions:

• leisure=pitch is not needed, and it would violate the "one feature, one OSM element" principle. In most of the current cases in OSM it has not been mapped. Some users put it around the entire area (around several ski jumps). There are two prevailing ways of mapping the ski jump: 1) Only one way for the inrun and landing area. 2) As 1 but adding an area for the landing area.
• piste:type=ski_jump as an area: It is optional, entirely up to the user. I have only seen it mapped as an area for the landing area, not for the inrun, but it theory both would be permissible (but in my opinion not desired). Mapping both way/line and area is consistent with how piste:type=downhill is mapped: At least a way down the center of the piste + an optional area to map the extent of the piste. It is quite common in OSM to be able to map a feature both as a way and as an area. This is consistent with how for example highway=pedestrian areas are mapped - highways across the area are mapped as usual with ways/lines.
• piste:takeoff=yes: "piste" was added to bring takeoff within the piste namespace. "takeoff" alone could have several other meanings.

--NKA (talk) 16:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for a thorough response. While I agree with most of what has been said, I can't resist the temptation to nitpick on the pitch-tagging topic :)

Whether it should be deemed as the correct tagging or not is another topic, but first I should disagree it is "not mapped in most of the current cases in OSM".

Currently we have:

• 247 ski jumping piste areas: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1IeH
• 373 pitches with ski jumping as the sport: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1IeG
• 93 ski jumping piste areas & pitches: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1IeF

It seems that tagging as a pitch is, compared to tagging as a piste area, actually quite popular. My guess would be that it is because (not an argument for correctness of course) it actually renders on the default layer…

However, is such tagging really violating One feature, one OSM element principle? Example: assume there is a winter-only ski jump, where the landing zone is clearly visible and distinct all year round due to wooden board fencing on the sides, and the outrun part lies on what is in the summer an open arable field or a pasture meadow of some sorts. Then shouldn't it be interpreted as if there were three separate entities: the landing-pitch, the farmland, and finally the piste which is spanning both?

Regards --Dzamper (talk) 20:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of the leisure=pitch question, I still think the illustration should include piste:type=ski_jump for the landing area. The wiki is explicitly stating this tagging and it has been mapped this way for several years, so it is rather unfortunate that the illustration now is not including it.--NKA (talk) 06:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Whatever I think of the fact that we're using the same piste:type=* key for both the line and the area (as opposed to e.g. highway=* vs area:highway=* distinction) is a topic for another discussion, and certainly not a one that is related to ski jumping in particular. Therefore, in the current state of things, I fully agree with you. I've updated the illustration to mention piste:type=ski_jump+area=yes instead of leisure=pitch. Thanks for the compliment on it BTW ;)

And thanks for the discussion. I think for now all of my original doubts have been settled.

Regards --Dzamper (talk) 14:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)