Talk:Tag:service=driveway2

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@JaLooNz: - "The general definition of driveway has its' roots in the California legislature since 1971. This definition is used to describe all minor service roads that services motor vehicles." are you sure?

It has been discussed and linked in service=driveway discussion. You can check for yourself in the legislature. --JaLooNz (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

What about Tag:service=emergency_access, Tag:service=drive-through, Tag:service=alley? Is it also considered to be driveway in such definition and something that you want to replace by service=driveway2? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Based on the language, it is considered as a type of driveways. However, you may have missed the part on "...except in cases where other service tags more accurately define the function of the way." --JaLooNz (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, but justification for driveway2 use instead of driveway is that it follows some legal decision from California. But it then ignores it anyway. Can you point to any road that would be tagged as service=driveway2 and would not be tagged as service=driveway and would be useful to tag as a driveway? What is the point of that tag? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 06:46, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
It is clear from previous discussion that driveway2 has different definition from driveway, which led to the need for a second definition of driveway which users may use for tagging but would not satisfy the definition of Tag:highway=service (no classification of service road type) or the combination of Tag:highway=service and Tag:service=driveway. You are now contradicting yourself in saying that these two tags have the same definition, and thus there is no need for such a tag.
Which previous discussion? Can you point to any road that would be tagged as service=driveway2 and would not be tagged as service=driveway and would be useful to tag as a driveway? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 20:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
It has already been linked in the post above, under discussion "Removal on restrictions on service=driveway tagging". There are two problematic areas in the former definition arising from Wiki edits in 2017, (1) driveway refers to minor service roads linking to property, whereas driveway2 refers to minor service roads linking to other service road categories (not strictly property only, which includes parking aisles). (2) A specific exclusion introduced in 2017 excludes tagging of entry ways to parking aisles and recommend to tag only as a minor road, despite the fact that it is still a driveway. Driveway2 resolves this contradiction by tagging an Apple (actual value) as an Apple (actual value), instead of tagging an Apple (actual value) as Fruit (un-categorised value).An example of a changeset where people referred to the post-2017 edits is linked here, where detailed driveway tagging was removed in favour of generic minor road tagging because of the above 2 points.--JaLooNz (talk) 13:19, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

This is silly. It should either be deleted, or moved to the creating user's private name space and not live alongside actual features. --Woodpeck (talk) 12:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

This tag proposal addresses a need for a generic service=* way type for motor vehicles, which allows service ways without the service=* to be further classified and not left in an un-deterministic state without service=* definition, similar to how StreetComplete is used to add the sub-classifiers. It is unfortunate that the driveway tag was already used for residential driveways, and thus it cannot be used for this purpose. However, it does not mean that this proposal is silly as this definition is definitely a valid definition and application of driveway. [Thesaurus likewise is unable to provide an alternative definition of driveway, and is the reason why driveway2 is required](https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/driveway). Your response shows that not much thought has been given into understanding the need for this.--JaLooNz (talk) 15:06, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
@JaLooNz: I'm not normally one to insist that the proposal process be followed strictly, but service=* is an important enough key that any novel value definitely would not be sustainable in the long term without a formal proposal, whether or not it comes to a vote. You are asking the community to accept a change to a longstanding definition of one of the most commonly tagged and commonly consumed features in the database (highway=service), but not really asking, just putting facts on the ground because others have already come out in disagreement. There's no better way to torpedo a tagging idea. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 18:40, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
The line on the (service=driveway) page that actually causes the problem in the first place didn't even go through any discussion on the talk page, nor any formal proposal process and yet was accepted. As contrasted to the previous change, I believe we have already gone through more of the process as compared to that change, and have agreed to not touch the (highway=service) and (service=driveway) pages. This page here is simply meant to document tag use (and why the tag is being used this way) as per the recommendations, and to describe why this is necessary. I disagree with deprecation as no better proposal is available, and against deletion as this goes against the principals of documenting tag use. In fact, everything on the page is describing how the tag is used and origins, and there is no need to mention who uses those tags (do we even see these on any other pages?) as these can be obtained via taginfo. The topic has been discussed by identifying the problem, proposed solution(s) for a better fix to the service=* classification issue, and yet all I can see is denial and objection without inputs to properly fix the issue by properly discussing a solution. This only illustrates how the OSM community operates and behaves - just brush off proper discussions and retain status quo.--JaLooNz (talk) 00:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@JaLooNz: As I have already explained, the line you are referring to was copy-pasted from somewhere else on the wiki to keep the wiki consistent. Perhaps the person who did so should have provided an edit summary, but they are not to blame for eschewing the tag proposal process. The current definition of service=driveway is consistent with how the tag had been defined for many years, years in which OSM has gained significant usage among renderers and routers. Backwards compatibility is a practical concern.

It's a historical accident that highway=service and service=driveway became entrenched without going through the proposal process. I'm suggesting the proposal process as an opportunity for you to constructively work with the community on a solution. The alternative would be for your efforts to come to naught. I have already sided with you in support for more service=* values in principle, so let's work from that common understanding instead of escalating the conflict. Maybe we can convince others of the necessity for new tags too.

Some tags, especially those with "in use" and "de facto" status, do have "History" and "Rationale" sections because there isn't a proposal page to provide that context. I have been active in adding these sections on a variety of pages, most of them thankfully less contentious than this one. It isn't my intention to single you out any more than you've already done. The page's history section doesn't name anyone in particular, nor does it cite an Overpass query that would've made it quite obvious who the predominant user of the tag is. But the fact that there is one predominant user of the tag, who introduced it in the midst of a dispute, is notable and relevant.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 01:39, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Woodpeck and Richard: Unless the 3,000-odd ways are retagged, I think redirecting to a proposal or changing the status to deprecated would be more helpful than deleting the page at this point. Otherwise, people are going to stumble upon one of the ways and wonder what it's all about, as apparently already happened in Discord. [1] – Minh Nguyễn 💬 18:40, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

minor local roads

If I understand the intention of this tag correctly, it is intended to differentiate between service roads that actually don't fall in one of the more specialized categories and those where no one has gotten around to add a service tag yet. First, I don't think this is needed: Most data users would treat a service-less service road like a service road with a tag that indicates it is connecting to even smaller more specialized service roads like parking aisles. And if a service tag has simply been forgotten, it will be added by someone eventually. The only possible benefit I see is to give some peace of mind to mappers that don't like unfilled fields in forms. Second, if we decide we actually want an extra service value for those roads, please don't name it service=driveway2 because that sounds silly. Name it something like service=access instead. --Lyx (talk) 19:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, in essence service=* should be an implicit service=unclassified instead of an implicit service=driveway. The formal service=driveway can be more correctly described as service=residential_driveway, but as we are not changing that definition one will need to introduce another tag for the general classifier which is this proposal. service=driveway2 is a temporary solution to avoid users removing classifier tags, and as such I am open to renaming it to other definitions such as service=access.--JaLooNz (talk) 00:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Please stop claiming that service=driveway is defined in a way that strictly limits it to residential driveways. That isn't what Tag:service=driveway has ever said. If you want to eliminate situations where service=* should be omitted, then the next step is to write a formal proposal for something palatable to replace it with and solicit feedback about the proposal. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 01:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
@Minh Nguyen:I believe the context of this discussion needs further breakdown and clarifications in the context of definitions as used before 2021. The definition of service=driveway since 2010 is generally associated with either residence or business. Minor service ways connecting to business seldom functions solely as driveway, as a majority of business driveways typically function in combination with parking, allowing customers to access the business. Upon the changing of the definition to exclude in/around parking lot and the parking lot perimeters in 2017, a significant portion of such service ways will fail definition of service=driveway tagging, leaving almost neglible scenarios whereby service=driveway will be used to connect to business. Thus, a majority of the uses left will be service ways of the residential variant. --JaLooNz (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
"leaving almost neglible scenarios whereby service=driveway will be used to connect to business" - this is example of untrue part Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 14:18, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
@Mateusz Konieczny:Please provide examples of such cases which are significant and meets the definition.--JaLooNz (talk) 14:28, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
I will try! Note to self: look through this and add missing service values where needed Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

How it differs from service=driveway

"definition differs from the service=driveway definition which defines a minor service road leading to a specific property"

Current definition of this tag claims "road providing access from the highway to an offstreet area used for driving, servicing, parking, or otherwise accommodating motor vehicles". Can anyone provide examples of cases where something is driveway and does not match service=driveway definition? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 14:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mateusz Konieczny: Without trying to speak for those who favor this tag, some U.S. dialects of English informally consider "driveway" to mean any off-street roadway, essentially any highway=service, while other U.S. dialects distinguish between "driveway" (in the classic sense) and "access road". Where there's a more specific term, such as "drive-through" or "parking aisle", people would gravitate towards those terms (though an "aisle" technically includes both the driveway and its parking spaces). Where we really run into trouble is parking lot entrances and the main circulatory roads around or through a parking lot. As far as I can tell, there's no fixed expression for these road types in any dialect of English, even in engineering jargon, although the Waze community calls them "parking lot roads". For almost as long as I've been mapping, I've seen American mappers gravitate toward service=driveway for these roads, for lack of a better term, which causes headaches for renderers and routers. But if we could come up with intuitive names for non-driveway driveways, then I'm sure they'd find acceptance as an alternative to overloading or forking driveway.

That said, I'm pretty sure actual service=driveway2 usage defies even a California English definition after discounting accidental typos.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 02:57, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Revert of undiscussed removal of criticism on wiki page

I took the liberty to revert the undiscussed modification of the wiki page by @JaLooNz which turns the voiced criticism on the page on its head to support their point of view.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aservice%3Ddriveway2&type=revision&diff=2379094&oldid=2379090 Woazboat (talk) 17:12, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

You need to define what "not used only for driveways" is referring to. In the page, driveway itself is define as "from the highway to an offstreet area" allowing motor vehicles access. Allowing motor vehicles access implies driving down the minor road, while from highway to offstreet area refers to linking from street to other minor service ways. Thus, the voiced criticism is incorrect because definition itself covers the cases mentioned, and you are not expressing a factual point of view. --JaLooNz (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
The point of criticism is that it does not in fact support your point of view of what a driveway is. Woazboat (talk) 17:26, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Please improve the clarity on the part "as it is not used only for driveways." It is not possible to respond when it is unclear what actually you want to point to.--JaLooNz (talk) 17:52, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Removal of documented ninja edits

@Mateusz Konieczny: For accurate tracking of the history of the relevant pages, it is factual claim that "ninja-edits" on service=driveway and service=parking_aisle pages were performed without any community (forum/Wiki/Reddit/Tagging Mailing List) documented discussion. This is a significant point as there were a lot of claims that the process of for this page did not meet the threshold of discussion. In actual fact, this page originated from a extended discussion and thus originated from a community-feedback process. Stating "discussion is not mandatory or necessary, especially Reddit discussion" is essentially double-speak, whereby this page is held to a different standard from the preceding edits.--JaLooNz (talk) 17:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Note that you complained about "ninja-edits" in edit which also were performed without such discussions. It is fine to make edits without such discussion in cases where they improve description and remove inaccuracies. Also, Reddit is not a good place for a real discussion. I removed this complaints as it was misleading to claim it was relevant. If you think that either was wrong: feel free to start discussion or revert them and someone else will revert you and start discussion to confirm this revert Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Self-contradiction

In https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Service%3Ddriveway2_coverage_diagram.svg you contradict "Driveway2 can be applied to all minor service roads that are not better classified via one of the other service=* tags"

Can you decide on one of this two versions? With exactly one mapper using the tag it should be possible to get definition which is not self-contradictory Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

It is clear from diagram that service=driveway2 encompasses service=driveway tagging, and other service=* tags lies outside the boundary of service=driveway2. This is contradictory only because you repeatedly added in service=driveway into one of the "other service tags" category. In fact, your claim that "service=driveway2 is used by a single mapper who disagrees with how service=driveway is defined" is also incorrect, as there are extensive use of service=driveway tagging across random areas sampled in the US that does not match the definition of service=driveway but actually matches the definition of service=driveway2. Thus, you are correct that only one mapper is using this tag, but in actual use of the service=driveway tag users may actually be tagging it according to definition of service=driveway2. --JaLooNz (talk) 13:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
@JaLooNz: They are also tagging it according to the definition of highway=service, unqualified, which has been repeatedly affirmed in consensus-building discussions that you have yet to participate in. If I unilaterally define a driveway=two tag that overlaps with the service=driveway2 definition, does that invalidate each previously defined tag by its mere existence? No, because that would've been unilateral. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 21:49, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
@Minh Nguyen:Please do not falsely claim that this tag is meant to invalidate any other tags. In the context of this page service=driveway is a subset of service=driveway2, and service=driveway2 is a subset of highway=service. The list of ways I sampled does not meet the definitions of service=driveway, but meets the definitions of service=driveway2 and highway=service. However, people can choose to freely tag based on whatever definition as they seek, so if they want to tag it as driveway=two then they should be free to do what they like as they are the ones contributing to the map.--JaLooNz (talk) 12:59, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect claim that definition of driveway in SHC only applies to one chapter

@Mateusz Konieczny:The following clause is misleading and false...

"They are using a definition from California's public road–building legal code that is explicitly scoped to only apply to one chapter of that legal code."

It suggest that the scope of driveway is only restricted to one chapter in legal code. However, driveway is defined once and only once in the entire "STREETS AND HIGHWAYS CODE - SHC", under "SHC - 5870. - ARTICLE 1. General Provisions [5870. - 5873.]". Thus, contrary to what is stated, if there are no other definitions of driveway anywhere else, it means other references utilises the same definition, and thus it applies to the rest of the legal code chapters.--JaLooNz (talk) 13:25, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@JaLooNz: I wrote that passage; Mateusz didn't realize just how confused your legal analysis was, and our edits conflicted.

It would be wise for you to refrain from making further legal arguments. It's thoroughly unconvincing, not least because OSM tagging definitions are not primarily based on the law. The California Legislature does not have the authority to regulate the tagging choices of a UK-based international project. It does not even have the authority to regulate the tagging choices of a similar U.S.-based project such as OpenHistoricalMap, thanks to the First Amendment. The state government has no legitimate interest in what citizens call a "driveway" for cartographic purposes.

Even if we decided to define service=* tags based on California law, your analysis relies on very superficial legal reasoning. To wit: the definition you cite is in chapter 27 of the SHC, in the article laying out general provisions for that chapter. Section 5870 begins with the phrase "As used in this chapter", which means "only applies in this chapter". [2] The Legislature chose to define this term within this chapter so that a city would not be responsible for building public sidewalks and curbs (the subject of the chapter) along service roads on private property. There is nothing binding on mapmakers in this chapter, and there is no mechanism by which such a tightly scoped phrase could be construed to automatically apply to arbitrary passages elsewhere in the legal code.

There is a kernel of truth to your arguments: this definition is based on the colloquial California English definition of a "driveway", that is, any service=* road at all. But in other states and countries, "driveway" does not have such a broad definition. So why are you picking on California?

I cannot escape the sense that you are just grasping at straws to justify a conclusion you arrived at beforehand. This tag is a solution in search of a problem. Initially, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, because a specific tag for parking lot access roads (and nothing else) could be useful. But you have since moved away from that justification, so I no longer see a point in pursuing this matter further.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 22:25, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Minh Nguyen:There is a lot of misdirection towards "legal arguments", "justifications", which does not address this topic at all. I will not respond to those. Sticking to the topic, "As used in this chapter" actually means "is defined as such in this chapter", but doesn't mean "only applies in this chapter". If you can kindly point to other definitions as used elsewhere in other chapters, please do remove your un-truth claim from the actual Wiki page.
I must also add that this page is written based on a well-defined definition of driveway that has and always been the same since the first revision of the page, and allows verifiable mapping based on this definition. The purpose of this page is to document the definition of the tag as it is used. If people believe there is no need for a Wiki page, then this page should just be deleted. However, people can still continue to map using service=driveway2, just without a proper definition in the Wiki.--JaLooNz (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

@JaLooNz: You are the one who have repeatedly cited California law in support of your claims. Therefore, your credibility depends on your ability to correctly interpret the law you are citing. I suggest you find a stronger argument.

The exact phrase "As used in this chapter" appears numerous times in the California Codes, the Code of Federal Regulations, and numerous other U.S. legal codes. When the word "driveway" appears in other chapters, parts, or divisions of this code, it is not subject to the definition buried in division 7, part 3, chapter 27. For example, section 1450(b) would come into conflict with this definition: your preferred definition would define a driveway as a public road, but chapter 5.5 is about a permitting system for private encroachments such as driveways. A definition that applies to all of division 7 would have appeared alongside other such definitions in division 7, part 1, while a definition that applies to the whole SHC would have been defined in the general provisions of the SHC. You may rightly ask what definition of "driveway" does apply outside of chapter 27. But that is for a court to decide, if it ever arises in a legal dispute. Again I call on you to consider the context of the passage you cited, as a matter of intellectual honesty.

Your latest comment would be reason enough for an administrator to delete the article ("Author request"). But I will refrain from deleting it for the moment, because with every edit you make to the article, you appear to be bolstering the argument for first deleting the 10,000-odd uses of this tag. You may use any tag you like, but if that is the primary basis for this tag, others may disagree with you and form a consensus to act accordingly.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 07:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@Minh Nguyen: at this point page contains useful info which was not authored by JaLooNz. They can at most delete section listing their justification for this tag. So it is no longer eligible for deletion as author request Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:01, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Examples

JaLooNz, can you give any examples of any specific ways (Google Street View / images / Mapillary etc) which you consider to be driveway and which are not taggable with service=driveway?

I looked through some things tagged with service=driveway2 and what I found seemed to be taggable with standard service=driveway Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:59, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mateusz Konieczny: Plenty of them are what would normally be tagged service=driveway, but there are also parking aisles and alleys. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 15:35, 3 September 2022 (UTC)