Proposed features/Chapel of rest

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Chapel of rest
Status: Obsoleted (inactive)
Proposed by: Vollis
Tagging: amenity=chapel_of_rest
Applies to: node area
Definition: a room or building where families and friends can come and view someone who has died before their funeral
Statistics:

Drafted on: 2020-09-21
RFC start: 2020-09-21
Vote start: 2020-11-04
Vote end: 2020-11-18

Proposal

(Please see [[Proposed features/Place of mourning]] instead, now.)

OSM has several tags surrounding cemeteries and funeral services, e.g. shop=funeral_directors for service providers who organise funerals, sell coffins, provide transport of the body and do related paperwork, or the recently approved tag amenity=funeral_hall for premises used for funeral ceremonies (other than places of worship). While such funeral halls for ceremonies are widespread in certain countries, elsewhere they are rare but one would rather find rooms where families and friends can come and view the deceased person in the days between the moment they died and their funeral (e.g. funérarium in France). Such amenites likewise deserve their tag, and having one will also help to avoid confusion between both kinds of amenities.

Chapels of rest can come as standalone premises (sometimes commercial, sometimes public). In that case, the basic tagging would be:

building=*
amenity=chapel_of_rest

They however are also often an ancillary amenity in other premises, in which case it is suggested to use a subtag:

building=*
amenity=crematorium
chapel_of_rest=yes

building=*
shop=funeral_directors
chapel_of_rest=yes

Label

After a preliminary discussion, I have chosen the label "chapel of rest" which seems to be a fairly standard and neutral description in British English. If however a consensus seems to emerge in favour of some other solution, I will readily shift the proposal there.

Update: On the tagging mailing list, I had floated "funeral viewing rooms", but several people thought that this rather sounds like a room from which the funeral can be observed. "Pre-funeral viewing rooms" was mentioned but judged rather clumsy. Nothing else for now that stands out.

Comments

Please comment on the discussion page.

Voting (obsolete)

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --EneaSuper (talk) 12:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. While I am fine with the idea to tag such features, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to christian religion. It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself. OSM so far is successful in chosing tags agnostic of particular religions, such as amenity=funeral_hall recently and amenity=place_of_worship long ago. Thus for this feature I'd prefer a value that is applicable to any religion as well as secular ones. --Polarbear w (talk) 11:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Please propose one. I've tried during the whole process (here and on the mailing list), and no-one seems to be able to come up with something else. --Vollis (talk) 11:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Probably the term should reflect the process of mourning. "Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology, but might be mistaken for a chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking or pilgrim route. "funeral viewing" was correctly excluded since the funeral is a separate process from the last view of the deceased, we might have the feature e.g. in hospitals. What about mortuary? --Polarbear w (talk) 14:29, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
The tag amenity=mortuary already exists. It is used as synonym to morgue, a place for simply storing corpses, as opposed to viewing them (in a dignified setting). --Vollis (talk) 15:45, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Indeed it is already used in OSM with the meaning you describe. Though my Oxford defines "chapel of rest" as "an undertaker's mortuary, where bodies are kept before a funeral" and does not reflect on the visitation aspect at all. --Polarbear w (talk) 16:36, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Why do you vote no if you are willing to tag such features where your only remark is about the alphanumeric value which is hidden to the end user? --Nospam2005 (talk) 20:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Because I do care about neutrality and worldwide acceptance of OSM. Hiding from "end user", whoever that is, depends on the implementation of the data consumer.--Polarbear w (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Chapel of rest in British English is neutral. It depends on the implementation of the data consumer, right, so are you going to avoid any tag or value because it could be implemented in a biased version by a data consumer? Really?
I also do care about neutrality and worldwide acceptance of OSM but I also do respect the usage of British English which is neither neutral (as seen here) nor worldwide used (see for instance the terms used in Canada or US). --Nospam2005 (talk) 22:49, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
You are twisting arguments again. This discussion is not how data consumers implement anything, it is about the tag we chose here. As you do not disclose your mapper account (if you have one in the first place), I cannot see what editor you use. I mostly use JOSM, and I see the tag I use.
Usage of British English does not dictate to chose a particular term, as I had explained comparing place of worship vs. church/mosque/synagoge. All are BE, and it is our choice to pick a neutral one. We have better proposals meanwhile, place_of_mourning in particular. --Polarbear w (talk) 11:04, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
You're twisting arguments again and again, that's the first time ever that I see one person trying to judge the vote of others after their votes, writing nothing on the discussion page but pages on the vote page. As you use JOSM, you should be aware of the existence of presets, hiding the "low level" tags. But your behaviour with non-sense arguments like "if you have one in the first place" is a pity. So for your information, my editor usage is as follow:
iD: 2742, JOSM: 576, Osmose: 108, unknown: 85, Potlatch: 47, JOSM (Reverter): 20, OsmAnd: 9, Jungle Bus: 2, Level0: 1,

Rosemary: 1. --Nospam2005 (talk) 22:20, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

There have been at least two possible alternative terms discussed on the tagging list that are religion-neutral and not based on Christian terminology, place_of_mourning and deceased_viewing. Other less favored alternatives have also been proposed in that discussion. Is the author planning to change to a more neutral term considering the outcome of that discussion? --ZeLonewolf (talk) 01:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. unless more neutral and still fitting name exists --Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:48, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
"mourning room" ? --Polarbear w (talk) 15:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Native speakers, anybody? As I said from the start: Anything that can find a consensus will be fine with me. --Vollis (talk) 15:45, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Switching to abstain, as "mourning room" is fine. I am unable to judge is it superior but proposal is not listing it among alternatives that were considered Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
mourning room is not correct as it's not about a room. This name would be perfect for indoor tagging which is not the case here. --Nospam2005 (talk) 20:02, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
In that case I am switching back to "yes" Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:11, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Mateusz Konieczny. I don't understand why you have to vote if you are uncertain if the proposed tag is a good one or not. ---Meme (talk)
@Mdelatorre: I followed discussion about naming and no name seemed clearly superior to me. In general, I vote in support of proposals unless I am convinced that it is a bad idea Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:32, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. The use of "chapel" isn't perfect but "chapel of rest" is common (even ubiquitous perhaps) in British English for the amenity proposed -- Casey boy (talk) 11:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Think of “chapel of rest” as a phrase and don’t try to break it down. The House of Commons isn’t a house in the way that “house” is normally understood. We need something and I’m not the only native British English speaker to understand the concern yet be unable to think of a better term. --Motogs (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
The "House of Commons" example does not help here. Literally it means the house where the Commons meet, as opposed to the house where the Lords meet. --Polarbear w (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Good point Motog, I would also have preferred another term but it's only a tag, the wording in an editor can be different. It would be funerarium in French which is not Christian connoted. And if British English is using a connoted part of an expression, well, it's up to the people in British isles to change their expressions - or not. --Nospam2005 (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
So if everybody would prefer another term, why do you vote yes? I'm surprised anyway how this tag is rushed into voting despite the arguments against it in the tagging list discussions? It is not about connotation, it is about religious bias. The British Ordnance Survey did chose "PoW - Place of Worship" in their maps, and OSM apparently inherited that term, although probably nobody says in colloquial English that they got to the Place of Worship tonight, if they go to the church or the mosque or whatever holy place, but the OS and the OSM maps remain politically correct when using PoW. mourning room would be a neutral alternative here. --Polarbear w (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
mourning room is not correct as it's not about a room. This name would be perfect for indoor tagging which is not the case here. This term has already been proposed and refused for this reason. --Nospam2005 (talk) 20:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Where has it been proposed and refused? Wiki search did not yield any other result than this page itself. Further, I am not aware that an outdoor feature is supposed to be tagged, certainly the amenity is a room. --Polarbear w (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, the thing I remember is that it was suggested in the tagging list discussion together with other terms, but it wasn't picked up by anybody, in particular not by any of the native speakers. If it's now, fine with me, but my confidence is rather low that it's going to be different this time around. --Vollis (talk) 22:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
There has been no rush at all. Just a vote after weeks of silence on a feature the usefulness of which everybody seems to agree on and with the only label that seems to be viable (at least for the time being). (And I can only regret that apparently a vote is needed to really get people interested; I surely did try to find alternatives, including via the tagging list, both before and after the formal RFC, the discussion went nowhere.) Again, if anything else appears to be more viable than (or even just more or less as viable as) the presently proposed one, I'll be the first one to switch for that. But it's not a solution to do nothing just because our working language doesn't appear to offer a term that is fully satisfactory to everybody (it's not fully satisfactory to me, but better than no tag at all.) --Vollis (talk) 20:29, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
"vote is needed to really get people interested" - that is sadly normal, not only in OSM but also for many other projects (from software development to big infrastructure project, where many people start reacting after everything is decided). For any bigger projects it is normal to get most feedback after it is too late to use it, fortunately here it is not so, problematic. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:18, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
"despite the arguments against it in the tagging list discussions" any longer thread on tagging mailing list will have opposition against any possible solution and also against doing nothing at all. "there was some opposition on mailing list" is not indicating anything by itself (it would matter if there would wider agreement that something is a bad idea, or serious and not addressed arguments, or a better viable solution proposed or something like that) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:13, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Distinguishes a physical building type albeit mostly in the UK and former empire ( including historic buildings in the original USA 13 colonies ) from what is essentially a 'service' offered that could be provided by various entities and take place in a variety of venues from temporary conversion of an existing room, dedicated room, or a specialized separate public structure at cemetery ( See "The Evolution of the British Funeral Industry in the 20th Century: From undertaker to funeral director" - "Chapter 2 From Front Parlour to Funeral Parlour The Development of the Chapel of Rest and Funeral Home" https://bit.ly/3p0rBSz ). For the service designation, while it is ubiquitous in the UK, according to trade journals, pricing lists, and business offerings, variations of 'viewing' are more standard. a sampling of multi-lingual marketing materials shows that translations of 'viewing' are common with exception of French. My suggestion would be 'viewing_arrangements' as a generic international term amicable to translation which encompasses the incredibly diverse on and off premises, public and private, and religious and cultural variations. --Geodesy99 (talk) 02:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. I would also prefer a more neutral term, but this seems a acceptable compromise as I didn't see anyone proposing a better english term. --Gileri (talk) 11:22, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
If you think this is not a neutral term why vote yes? --Meme (talk)
  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. I've read the discussion in the votings above and many seem to want a neutral term (not bound to any religion). What about amenity=place_of_mourning? --Westnordost (talk) 15:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Funeral Directors are also regarded as non-religious. Quoting from your URL the definition of Chapel of Rest is: "a room or building, often attached to or within a funeral home, where families and loved ones can come and view someone who has died before their funeral." If the chapel is a room inside a funeral home a.k.a. Funeral Directors (Read amenity=funeral_hall definition in OSM Wiki) this new tag name would be perfect for indoor tagging which is not the case here. Make your own judgment. --Meme (talk)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. I voted yes for tag amenity=funeral_hall, but this time I have to vote no. It is redundant. I really don't understand why we need another tag for a room or building where families and friends can come and view someone who has died before their funeral. The tag shop=funeral_directors fits perfectly the definition of this new tag proposal (please read it) I quote the definition for funeral_directors: "An event (a place) to honor the deceased for mourners are held here in conjunction with religious services which are held elsewhere". And the tag amenity=funeral_hall can be used instead, in the case that religious ceremonies (any creed) are allowed in the building. Funeral Halls in many countries (as mine [México]) help mourners with all the administrative documentation as Funeral Directors do. If we want to have a tag for every possible difference in all countries we will have a myriad of tags and a complete confussion on which tag to use. The simplest solution is always the best. --Meme (talk) 08:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The tag shop=funeral_directors is for a shop, where you can buy a coffin, get transport services for the deceased, paperwork done, sometimes embalming etc. And yes, often, the same business will also offer a room to store the body in a dignified way where people can come and visit the deceased in the days between death and burial. But such businesses don't necessarily have such rooms and in some places such rooms would rather be elsewhere and not linked to a funeral directors shop. --Vollis (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. For me a duplicate of tag amenity=funeral_hall, see no reason for this tag, it would be redundant.Szydzio (talk) 13:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
amenity=funeral_hall is for funeral ceremonies (that aren't necessarily religious), i.e. the ceremonies on the day of the burial. It's a completely different concept. I don't know of an example where both amenities are equally common in the same country, but let's say you are living in Rennes (France) and you have lost someone. You will first task an undertaker (shop=funeral_directors) who will probably also have a funérarium (which is the proposed feature) where the deceased will be taken and where they can be viewed, but on the day of the funeral, if you're religious you're going to take the coffin to a church, mosque, synagogue, whatever (amenity=place_of_worship)... If you're not, you may take it to the "salle de recueillement" (amenity=funeral_hall) created by the city at the cemetery to have a ceremony there. In other places both things may be in the same building, but they are clearly distinct. --Vollis (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I note that the English Wikipedia page  Funeral_home directs to  Funérarium in French, which is the term described in the lede. Similarly, I am also having trouble understanding where the distinction is between the two. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
The Wikidata link is misleading. That's exactly what happens when you overlook cultural differences. Both in the Anglosphere and in France, the business (funeral directors/entreprise de pompes funèbres) and the viewing amenity (chapel of rest/funérarium) often go together. So, it's easy to mistake one for the other. But elsewhere, they don't always go together. (And in any case, the Wikipedia page  Funeral_home has multiple issues, and the correct Wikipedia page for shop=funeral_directors is  Funeral_director.) --Vollis (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
A comparison may help. shop=funeral_directors can be compared to shop=travel_agency (the very last travel indeed): it organizes the funerals. It may be a room for mourning there or not. The chapel of rest (place of mourning) is the place where the dead body will stay for some days, like a leisure=resort. You are happy to be able to tag both, aren't you? If a funeral directors shop do mourning on site, tag chapel_of_rest=yes or place_of_mourning=yes. --Nospam2005 (talk) 19:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)